Legacy L 2.5i 2002 – front differential? whine

[myth]

Now I post pics.

1st = diff drain plug. Only plug and around are wet. Note the marking "DIFF OIL"

2nd = ATF drain plug. Only plug and around are wet.

 

1st = front diff dipstick.

2nd = front diff dipstick head. See black oil on the dipstick.

3rd = front diff dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See black oil on napkin

 

Pics are taken Sep 21, Mon.

[myth]

1st = front diff dipstick.

2nd = front diff dipstick head. See black oil on the dipstick.

3rd = front diff dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See black oil on napkin

 

 

After cleaning the dipstick, I put it back in place then pull it out again.

 

1st = front diff dipstick head. See clean oil on the dipstick this time.

2nd = front diff dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See clean oil on napkin this time.

 

Pics are taken Sep 21, Mon.

[myth]

Now I post pics.

1st = diff drain plug. Only plug and around are wet. Note the marking "DIFF OIL"

2nd = ATF drain plug. Only plug and around are wet.

 

 

1st = ATF dipstick head. See oil on the dipstick

2nd = ATF dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See fresh red oil on napkin.

 

Pics are taken Sep 21, Mon.

[myth]

Now I post pics.

1st = diff drain plug. Only plug and around are wet. Note the marking "DIFF OIL"

2nd = ATF drain plug. Only plug and around are wet.

 

Pics are taken Sep 21, Mon.

 

 

Now I post pics for more convenient view.

 

 

Diff drain plug. Only plug and around are wet. Note the marking "DIFF OIL"

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73764&d=1253855430

 

ATF drain plug. Only plug and around are wet.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73765&d=1253855430

 

 

Front diff dipstick.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73766&d=1253855870

 

Front diff dipstick head. See black oil on the dipstick.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73767&d=1253855870

 

Front diff dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See black oil on napkin

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73768&d=1253855870

 

After cleaning the dipstick, I put it back in place then pull it out again.

 

front diff dipstick head. See clean oil on the dipstick this time.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73769&d=1253856318

 

front diff dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See clean oil on napkin this time.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73770&d=1253856318

 

 

ATF dipstick head. See oil on the dipstick

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73771&d=1253856449

 

ATF dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See fresh red oil on napkin.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73772&d=1253856449

 

 

Pics are taken Sep 21, Mon.

[myth]

I got a phone call 2 days ago from Firestone. Caller's area # 630 is west Chicago where is the region for HQ.

 

The Firestone staff (Dave) said that he is confused. Since it is not possible to drain diff and ATF during engine oil change. I said that "Firestone technician might think that I agreed to change diff oil".

Dave also said that it is not possible for technician to drain ATF since a car cannot move with ATF drained. I said that car can still move with 1/2 ATF drained; full ATF drain requires special device. And there are thread on Subaru forum that a car moves with 1/2 drained.

Dave argued that there was ATF leak, not ATF drain. My answer is that I cannot find any sign of leak; ATF does not decrease and there is no oil on the ground under the car.

Dave also said that the diff might be previous damaged but one could not notice. I said I have been to Subaru dealer a few times, but there was no mention about it. Then Dave said that even Subaru dealer may not find it since there is no dipstick for diff. So I told him that there is diff dipstick in Subaru. It seems that he do not believe that Subaru has diff dipstick.

I said "Come and see. Diff and ATF drain are still wet with oil." But Dave said that he cannot do it before damage report.

Dave wanted me to inspect my car at the mechanic I selected. And fax him the report that the car was damaged by oil drain. He said he can start to to something only after the report. And I agreeed.

 

After the conversation, I found a problem. To inspect diff and trannny, mechanic may need to drain oil. Then Dave may argue that the drain is wet because of the inspection. I left a voice message about it to Dave yesterday evening, but there was no response yet.

 

 

In worst case, it will cost $2000 even without warranty. I dropped the car at transmission specialist. It will take 3~4 days of work.

I have been to an independent mechanic with high reputation. I said about the story to mechanic. And he said that car cannot move with drained diff. A few hours later, I heard that it may be a transmission problem. But he cannot find exactly what is wrong and exact inspection requires huge work to disassemble. He suggested to find a transmission specialist. I asked him to recommend a tranny expert. And he recommended “x x transmission”(not the real name. the word transmission in name.).

Then, I moved to recommended tranny expert and told the story. He test drove the car and said “final drive shot” immediately. He said that there should not be such a whining sound. He will never drive a cars like mine since it can hit any time. He have fixed so many these cars (meaning Subaru?) and sait that “tranny + difff + final drive” is the most expensive part. I told about the oil drain, and he asked who did it. I said Firestone, and he said I should not go there. To know whether the damage was caused by oil drain, he need to take apart “tranny + difff + final drive” part. If the damage was done from oil drain, he will take photos of it. In worst case, the “tranny + difff + final drive” need to be replaced to a used one at about $2000 ($1500 part + $500 install). Worse news is that used part has no warranty. If it can be repaired without replacement, he will do it at lower price with 1 year warranty. It will take 3~4 days.

 

There is no response from Firestone Dave about my voice message yet.

[Big Red]

In most cases the "final drive" refers to the diff as that is the "final drive" ratio in the car. And for the record cars can move with no oil in the diff as long as they have had oil in them previously. We move cars/trucks with the rear cover missing from the diff. The metallic color of the oil worries me though.

[myth]

In most cases the "final drive" refers to the diff as that is the "final drive" ratio in the car. And for the record cars can move with no oil in the diff as long as they have had oil in them previously. We move cars/trucks with the rear cover missing from the diff. The metallic color of the oil worries me though.

 

Metallic oil color and whining sound make me scared. Maybe diff is being grinded?

[myth]

In worst case, it will cost $2000 even without warranty. I dropped the car at transmission specialist. It will take 3~4 days of work.

I have been to an independent mechanic with high reputation. I said about the story to mechanic. And he said that car cannot move with drained diff. A few hours later, I heard that it may be a transmission problem. But he cannot find exactly what is wrong and exact inspection requires huge work to disassemble. He suggested to find a transmission specialist. I asked him to recommend a tranny expert. And he recommended “x x transmission”(not the real name. the word transmission in name.).

Then, I moved to recommended tranny expert and told the story. He test drove the car and said “final drive shot” immediately. He said that there should not be such a whining sound. He will never drive a cars like mine since it can hit any time. He have fixed so many these cars (meaning Subaru?) and sait that “tranny + difff + final drive” is the most expensive part. I told about the oil drain, and he asked who did it. I said Firestone, and he said I should not go there. To know whether the damage was caused by oil drain, he need to take apart “tranny + difff + final drive” part. If the damage was done from oil drain, he will take photos of it. In worst case, the “tranny + difff + final drive” need to be replaced to a used one at about $2000 ($1500 part + $500 install). Worse news is that used part has no warranty. If it can be repaired without replacement, he will do it at lower price with 1 year warranty. It will take 3~4 days.

 

There is no response from Firestone Dave about my voice message yet.

 

 

It is even worse than the worst case. The tranny expert said that the cost will be $2200~2300. He cannot fix it because inside has gone so badly. The problem is bearing as he guessed. He paid $1800 for used one. And the installation will cost $400~500. And he think that the damage has been done because of a oil drained driving.

After hearing it, I tried to call Firestone Dave. But it was forwarded to voice message again. I left a voice message “I have a problem to discuss with you.”. But I do not think there will be any response.

I tried to call Firestone Dave many times from last Wed. (6 days ago), but all the calls were forwarded to voice message. I could not get any response for so many voice messages.

[myth]

It is even worse than the worst case. The tranny expert said that the cost will be $2200~2300. He cannot fix it because inside has gone so badly. The problem is bearing as he guessed. He paid $1800 for used one. And the installation will cost $400~500. And he think that the damage has been done because of a oil drained driving.

After hearing it, I tried to call Firestone Dave. But it was forwarded to voice message again. I left a voice message “I have a problem to discuss with you.”. But I do not think there will be any response.

I tried to call Firestone Dave many times from last Wed. (6 days ago), but all the calls were forwarded to voice message. I could not get any response for so many voice messages.

 

trans+diff was changed.

 

Today (Sep 30, Wed), I have been to the trans shop. The job is nearly done and will be finished tomorrow. Another guy (not the chief?) said again that the damage was done by oil drain. At the completion, They will write the estimate and inspection (damage reason) report. I asked him to keep the old trans+diff for a while since Firestone may want to see it. He said yes, but they cannot keep it for a long time due to the core charge. (If the shop do not return the old part to remanufacturer, shop need to pay a core charge) He said he need to talk with Firestone about core charge. I asked about warranty, but the answer is not positive; Used one generally comes with 30 or 90 days warranty.

I did some google search for "Subaru transmission". The result seems different from the trans shop's word. Remanufactured (for Legacy L 2002 AT) trans cost $1800~2000 (without core charge) and generally comes with 1~3 year warranty. I cound find just 1 seller for used trans; 30~70k miles and cost $1200. If the shop used a used one, then $1800 is somewhat high. If remanufactured one is used, there shoud be a 1~3 year warranty.

 

Firestone Dave called me today (Sep 30, Wed) morning, finally 7 days after I left so many messages. I could not answed and he left a voice message. He said that he responded for my (7 days old?) voice message. He want to send a inspection report to him.

Tonight (Sep 30, Wed), after visiting trans shop, I called Firestone Dave after his business hour and left a following voice message. The job will be finished tomorrow. Cost will be $2300. Trans+diff was changed since tranny shop cannot fix it because of severe damage. The trans shop think that the damage was done by oil drain. The shop will write the inspection report and estimate. I will fax him the documents. The old trans+diff will be kept for Firestone inspection, but it cannot be kept for a long time because of a core charge.

[myth]

trans+diff was changed.

 

Today (Sep 30, Wed), I have been to the trans shop. The job is nearly done and will be finished tomorrow. Another guy (not the chief?) said again that the damage was done by oil drain. At the completion, They will write the estimate and inspection (damage reason) report. I asked him to keep the old trans+diff for a while since Firestone may want to see it. He said yes, but they cannot keep it for a long time due to the core charge. (If the shop do not return the old part to remanufacturer, shop need to pay a core charge) He said he need to talk with Firestone about core charge. I asked about warranty, but the answer is not positive; Used one generally comes with 30 or 90 days warranty.

I did some google search for "Subaru transmission". The result seems different from the trans shop's word. Remanufactured (for Legacy L 2002 AT) trans cost $1800~2000 (without core charge) and generally comes with 1~3 year warranty. I cound find just 1 seller for used trans; 30~70k miles and cost $1200. If the shop used a used one, then $1800 is somewhat high. If remanufactured one is used, there shoud be a 1~3 year warranty.

 

Firestone Dave called me today (Sep 30, Wed) morning, finally 7 days after I left so many messages. I could not answed and he left a voice message. He said that he responded for my (7 days old?) voice message. He want to send a inspection report to him.

Tonight (Sep 30, Wed), after visiting trans shop, I called Firestone Dave after his business hour and left a following voice message. The job will be finished tomorrow. Cost will be $2300. Trans+diff was changed since tranny shop cannot fix it because of severe damage. The trans shop think that the damage was done by oil drain. The shop will write the inspection report and estimate. I will fax him the documents. The old trans+diff will be kept for Firestone inspection, but it cannot be kept for a long time because of a core charge.

 

 

Today 3pm, I called the trans shop and heard that the job will be finished tomorrow. I asked to call me when it is finished. He said today yesterday, but now tomorrow. My car was jacked up on the lift when I visited the shop yesterday. They have only 4 lifts and there are so many cars in the backyard. It suggest that they were still working on my car?

 

There is no response from Firestone Dave about yesterday voice message. He is so busy that it takes 7 days to respond to voice message?

 

 

It seems that “A mechanic drain wrong oil by mistake but do not fill it back” happens sometimes. Please read the following links. I quoted a few for your convenience.

 

2000 Subaru needs new transmission w/ only 34K miles - 2000 Forester

http://www.my3cents.com/showReview.cgi?id=1918

 

“The dealer is trying to point the finger at the quicklube/express lube where I had the oil changed. He says that the tech pulled the wrong plug & drained the transmission fluid.”

 

“when I purchased my Subaru, the salesman warned me of this issue and advised me to only have my oil changed at the Subaru dealership. I didn't believe him. However, on two separate occasions while dropping my vehicle off for service, there were customers at the dealership with this exact problem. The dealer also told me that they had to send technicans out several times a week to oil change places because no one could get an oil filter off a Subaru unless they had special tools or know how.”

 

“It appears that when a auto repair place drains your oil you should warn them not to drain your differiental too. Well how was I too know this would cost me $3500 to replace my the front differential in my 2002 Outback with less than 8k miles.”

 

“Blurt8 (09/17/2007)

I have a 2000 Subaru Forrester and it IS easy to confuse the transmission filter and oil with the engine oil...on the drivers side of the engine is a spin on filter and drain plug.....look exactly like engine filter and oil...it is NOT...I made this mistake trying to change my own oil.”

 

“equiptech (03/27/2008)

Subaru is one of the SMART designers to make a spin on filter for the Trans ( and a drain Plug) It is up to the Service shop to TRAIN their personnel to know how to CHANGE OIL!!!

…

I speak as a retired ASE Tech & a former Auto shop owner!!

These places hire by price & change personnel by the DAY!”

 

subaru transmission problems

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f133f60

[myth]

Today 3pm, I called the trans shop and heard that the job will be finished tomorrow. I asked to call me when it is finished. He said today yesterday, but now tomorrow. My car was jacked up on the lift when I visited the shop yesterday. They have only 4 lifts and there are so many cars in the backyard. It suggest that they were still working on my car?

 

There is no response from Firestone Dave about yesterday voice message. He is so busy that it takes 7 days to respond to voice message?

 

 

The trans+diff replacement has been finished today. Today (Oct 2, Fri) 4pm, I called the trans shop and heard that the job has been done.

I will pick up my car tomorrow (Sat) or Monday.

 

There is no response from Firestone Dave. Why does not he call me?

[myth]

The trans+diff replacement has been finished today. Today (Oct 2, Fri) 4pm, I called the trans shop and heard that the job has been done.

I will pick up my car tomorrow (Sat) or Monday.

 

There is no response from Firestone Dave. Why does not he call me?

 

 

I just (0:42, Oct 3, Sat, EST) left a voive message to Firestone Dave:

The repair has been finished. The cost will be $2300+tax. Trans+diff has been changed. I asked to keep the old trans for Firestone inspection. But the tranny shop cannot keep it long because of core charge. Please call me back ASAP.

 

How long will it take to get a response? Will Firestone want to see the old trans+diff?

[myth]

The trans+diff replacement has been finished today. Today (Oct 2, Fri) 4pm, I called the trans shop and heard that the job has been done.

I will pick up my car tomorrow (Sat) or Monday.

 

There is no response from Firestone Dave. Why does not he call me?

 

 

I picked up my car back. It runs well.

 

 

Receipt says:

R&R 7.7 hours at $65.00 pin incl. bench dissas for insp. $500.50

supply salvage trans unit $1800.00

diagnosis finia drive assmly run no lube

R&R transaxle dissas for insp. final drive overheatin ring & pinion gears cut diff bearings bad, install salvage trans unit 2300.50

guarantee 90 days salvage trans unit

 

I asked and he said that it has 55k mi and runs pretty well.

 

I will send this receipt and letter to Firestone Dave using both fax and certified mail.

 

 

 

Trans shop charged $1800 for 55k used trans with 90 days warranty. They said that they bought it at $1800. It is reasonable?

 

It seems that used trans with 1 year warranty cost less than $700.

http://www.automotix.net/usedengines/2002-subaru-legacy-inventory.html

http://www.used-auto-transmissions.com/usedtransmissionsales/subaru-legacy-2002-store.html

 

Trans with remanufactured torque converter cost $1890. Core deposit is $500.

http://market.autopartsfair.com/subaru-transmissions/legacy-2002-automatic_transmissions-subaru4sp_2.html

 

Trans shop mentioned about core charge, but core charge is not mentioned with used one, only with remanufactured one. 90 days warranty is too short; both used and reman one comes with 1 year warranty.

 

 

 

Firestone contact history. I will keep updating this history for record and quick reference.

 

 

Oct 3, Sat

I left a voive message to Firestone Dave:

The repair has been finished. The cost will be $2300+tax. Trans+diff has been changed. I asked to keep the old trans for Firestone inspection. But the tranny shop cannot keep it long because of core charge. Please call me back ASAP.

 

 

Sep 30, Wed, evening.

After visiting trans shop, I called Firestone Dave after his business hour and left a following voice message. The job will be finished tomorrow. Cost will be $2300. Trans+diff was changed since tranny shop cannot fix it because of severe damage. The trans shop think that the damage was done by oil drain. The shop will write the inspection report and estimate. I will fax him the documents. The old trans+diff will be kept for Firestone inspection, but it cannot be kept for a long time because of a core charge.

 

 

Sep 30, Wed, morning

Firestone Dave called me, finally 7 days after I left so many messages. I could not answer and he left a voice message. He said that he responded for my (7 days old?) voice message. He want to send a inspection report to him.

 

 

Sep 29, Tue, afternoon

I tried to call Firestone Dave. But it was forwarded to voice message again. I left a voice message "I have a problem to discuss with you.". But I do not think there will be any response.

I tried to call Firestone Dave many times from last Wed. (6 days ago), but all the calls were forwarded to voice message. I could not get any response for so many voice messages.

 

 

Sep 24

I called Firestone Dave a few times, but I could not talk with him; it was directed to voice mail every time. I left a voice message again.

 

 

Sep 22

I got a phone call 2 days ago from Firestone. Caller's area # 630 is west Chicago where is the region for HQ.

 

The Firestone staff (Dave) said that he is confused. Since it is not possible to drain diff and ATF during engine oil change. I said that "Firestone technician might think that I agreed to change diff oil".

Dave also said that it is not possible for technician to drain ATF since a car cannot move with ATF drained. I said that car can still move with 1/2 ATF drained; full ATF drain requires special device. And there are thread on Subaru forum that a car moves with 1/2 drained.

Dave argued that there was ATF leak, not ATF drain. My answer is that I cannot find any sign of leak; ATF does not decrease and there is no oil on the ground under the car.

Dave also said that the diff might be previous damaged but one could not notice. I said I have been to Subaru dealer a few times, but there was no mention about it. Then Dave said that even Subaru dealer may not find it since there is no dipstick for diff. So I told him that there is diff dipstick in Subaru. It seems that he do not believe that Subaru has diff dipstick.

I said "Come and see. Diff and ATF drain are still wet with oil." But Dave said that he cannot do it before damage report.

Dave wanted me to inspect my car at the mechanic I selected. And fax him the report that the car was damaged by oil drain. He said he can start to to something only after the report. And I agreeed.

 

After the conversation, I found a problem. To inspect diff and trannny, mechanic may need to drain oil. Then Dave may argue that the drain is wet because of the inspection. I left a voice message about it to Dave yesterday evening, but there was no response yet.

 

 

Sep 22

I could not get any response for 4 days from Firestone.

 

So I filed a complaint at BBB (Better Business Bureau). Link is the Firestone complaint stat.

http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/business-reviews/auto-repair-and-service/firestone-tire-and-service-in-williamsville-ny-3309/

 

There is also Forestone's own customer survey.

http://www.firestonesurvey.com/

I selected negative answers then the site wanted me to leave contact info for area manager.

 

 

Sep 19

I sent an e-mail about it to Firestone through their website last night. I could not get any response yet. I do not know whether it goes to HQ or local. But considering HQ maililg address shown at this page, I guess that it goes to HQ.

http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/feedback/getContact.action

[myth]

I just (0:42, Oct 3, Sat, EST) left a voive message to Firestone Dave:

The repair has been finished. The cost will be $2300+tax. Trans+diff has been changed. I asked to keep the old trans for Firestone inspection. But the tranny shop cannot keep it long because of core charge. Please call me back ASAP.

 

How long will it take to get a response? Will Firestone want to see the old trans+diff?

 

 

Firestone has denied my claim. This is pretty long to read. There is a summary on bottom.

Yesterday (Oct 05, Mon) morning, Firestone Dave called me but I could not answer. He left a message; He need the document from the shop and we really need to talk about it. Yesterday afternoon, I sent the bill with fax. Today (Oct 06, Tue) afternoon, I sent it again for overkill. And I tried to call him 3 times, but they were forwarded to voice messages “I sent the document, please call me back.”.

Today 5:43pm, Firestone Dave called me and I answered. He got the document. He quoted their Aug 23 record; there is a transmission leak. And there is a orange gasket which shows that my transmission has been repaired by another shop. I asked whether it is possible that a mechanic cannot see such a large ATF oil spot of underbody on 1st visit at Aug 22, and he said he does now know. There was no transmission repair while I am having it for 3 years. I pointed out that the failure happened in diff, not trans. Then he said that there is no proof that Firestone drained diff. Then I mentioned about Aug 22 record suggesting oil change which implies that the diff oil was not low at Aug 22. He said that the suggestion (change diff oil) does not mean that Firestone checked diff oil. He said that the suggestion can be just a scheduled maintenance. Then I asked again whether Firestone can suggest service without checking it and without knowing the service history , and he said yes. He does not know whether the diff oil has been checked or not. Then he said that my claim has been denied. He said that my chance is worse because my car has been already repaired. I told him that Firestone may see the old transmission if he want, but he said that it is not necessary since the claim has been denied. He said I may go to small claim court if I want. I asked to send a denial letter to me and he said yes. Just after phone call, I called him again to request the record about orange transmission gasket. He said that the claim has been denied and he would not say about it anymore. But after I requested for record, he said yes.

I guess he could have refused my claim from the start with the same reason; no clear proof that Firestone drained the diff oil and ATF. But, instead, he asked me to inspect my car saying that he need the inspection report to do anything. To inspect, the diff+transmission need to be pulled out and I need to repair it for ride. Now the possible proof in my car has gone, and he denied. Even if I showed the empty diff oil at 2nd visit (Aug 23), they could have argued the same manner; no clear proof.

What is my option now? I have no clear proof that Firestone drained the oil; Just situations. Firestone suggested to change diff oil at Aug 22, And I bought diff oil at Aug 23 (I have receipts) . And there is a trans shop description that the damage has been done due to no lube. What can I do?

 

Is it practically possible to clearly prove that a damage is caused by a mechanic shop? In most cases, shop can argue that the damage has existed previously.

I am somewhat surprised that Firestone Dave argued that Firestone sometimes recommend service without checking it. Not I, but a Firestone staff argued it.

 

 

Summary:

Firestone denied my claim. Firestone said that there is no clear proof that they drained oil. Suggesting diff oil change does not necessarily mean that they checked diff oil. I may go to small claim court if I want.

What is my option, now?

[klrtovfr]

try filing small claims at the nearest courthouse

 

Obviously the whine occurred only after you went to firestone. How else would the car make it there without oil in the differential or be whining? When was the last time anyone worked on the car before this? Can you have the transmission shop do some kind of leak test on the old transmission and differential to prove that there were no leaks, and that it had to be drained only by the drain plug? Did you save the drained fluid? Maybe you can have it tested to see if the fluid doesn't match oem fluid, which would mean they did add to it.

 

this is the exact reason I learn to work on my own car unless it requires a $3000 machine to do it. That way I know what is being done to it.

[fishbone]

Tough one. Even if you establish that the car cannot be driven without diff fluid, it doesn't prove that your whine occured right after you left Firestone, unless maybe if you contacted them back about it that very same day. Then it becomes a matter along the lines of ... if the car can't function properly without fluid in the differential, it's not possible there was none prior to you driving to Firestone. You would have had no basis or reason to contact Firestone right away after you had left complaining of this unless the problem, in fact, presented itself when you left their shop. If you waited to contact them, they could argue that there is no way to prove that somebody else didn't mess around on your car between the time you left Firestone and the differential started whining.

 

Edit: re-reading your initial post, you did the right thing. You went right back to them the very next day. I think you should shoot in the general direction I stated above:

-car can't be driven on a prolonged basis with severely low/no fluid, thus there's no way this could have been an on-going pre-existing condition

-problem presented right away after you had left Firestone, the fact that you went right back to them the next day more or less supports the argument

-having established that the condition of your diff could not have been an on-going situation, then in the timespan of two days the only factor that comes into play is ... Firestone.

[myth]

try filing small claims at the nearest courthouse

 

Obviously the whine occurred only after you went to firestone. How else would the car make it there without oil in the differential or be whining? When was the last time anyone worked on the car before this? Can you have the transmission shop do some kind of leak test on the old transmission and differential to prove that there were no leaks, and that it had to be drained only by the drain plug? Did you save the drained fluid? Maybe you can have it tested to see if the fluid doesn't match oem fluid, which would mean they did add to it.

 

this is the exact reason I learn to work on my own car unless it requires a $3000 machine to do it. That way I know what is being done to it.

 

 

The last time it was serviced is Feb 2009, I think. Exhaust pipe near rear axle was corroded and fixed.

I guess that is not the reason. Firestone drained, not filled diff oil. They filled ATF. And the problem happened on diff, not trans.

I will ask the trans shop for leak. Thanks.

[myth]

Summary:

Firestone denied my claim. Firestone said that there is no clear proof that they drained oil. Suggesting diff oil change does not necessarily mean that they checked diff oil. I may go to small claim court if I want.

What is my option, now?

 

 

I filed a claim through BBB. Since I could not get any response from my 1st contact to Firestone for a few days. I posted it in this thread before.

Now BBB forwarded me a Firestone's response to BBB. It seeme that the message to BBB is different from message to me; Firestone told me "CLEAR proof", but wrote to BBB just "proof".

 

===============================================================================

 

October 07, 2009

 

Better Business Bureau, Inc.

100 Bryant Woods South

Amherst, NY 14228

 

 

re: Firestone Tire and Service (complaint ID #A8276-F538E-18463-0AD3A-8FBEC-9AC14-F2)

 

 

Dear **** ****:

 

Enclosed is the company response to the complaint you filed with us.

 

The Better Business Bureau tries to settle complaints between businesses and consumers by acting as a neutral third party, and hearing both sides of the dispute. As a consequence, many complaints are resolved to the satisfaction of both parties.

 

In this case, we will report that the company has responded to the complaint by addressing the disputed issue(s) and exhibited a good faith effort to resolve the complaint. This category was assigned because the company responded within the BBB's desired time frame and provided a meaningful and specific response to the complaint, even though it may not fully satisfy the customer.

 

The information you have provided will remain in the company's file.

 

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Carol Bedard

Member Services

???????@upstatenybbb.org

 

 

 

 

----------------------- CONSUMER/BUSINESS MESSAGE DETAILS -----------------------

 

 

------ from the Business [received 10/7/2009] ------------------

 

I have just forwarded information to you about this situation under separate cover.

This customer was referred to our claims department. Our claims department denied the claim asking that something be provided that would substantiate it as we did NO service work on what the customer had complained to us about. Evidently, the customer has not provided that. We as a company stand behind everything we do, and certainly do make mistakes. If there were any form of proof that **** issues were a direct fault of our oil change service, we would certainly stand behind our work and make it right for our customer.

At this point, the claim stands with us as denied pending documented proof that we are at fault.

I believe that having our corporate claims department involved in this shows a good faith effort to resolve.

 

Please let me know if there are any other questions!

 

Thanks,

Chris Dean

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

------ from the Business [received 10/7/2009] ------------------

 

This claim was actually handled by Dave Dusak (x????). In review of the claim file it is documented that the last time Dave spoke with the customer was on 10/6/09 in which the customer stated that the vehicle was repaired and he was seeking reimbursement for what he paid the outside repair facility. The customer was then informed that a month prior the customer was informed that liability was declined. Dave requested documentation or proof that store caused failure, F/S did not service differential or transmission. The customer requested a denial letter which Dave sent out to the customer via regular mail.

 

 

 

If you need additional details you can reach Dave Dusak via email or phone #630/259-????.

 

 

 

Thanks,Rogers, DL

 

 

 

 

BFS retail & Commerical Operations, LLC

 

333 East Lake Street

 

Bloomingdale, IL 60108

 

Phone: 630-259-????

 

Fax: 630-259-????

 

E-mail: ????????@bfrc.com Please note new email address

 

 

 

 

 

----------------------- end CONSUMER/BUSINESS MESSAGE DETAILS -----------------------

[myth]

I changed engine oil on Aug 22 morning at local Firestone. While check out, they suggested to change timing belt and front & rear differential oil. I said I will consider these.

Returning to home after oil change, I feel that the car is less powerful than before. And I heard whine from the front. So, I test the car with full throttle and the car seems Ok.

That day evening I drove a few miles, and I heard sharp and large metal scratching sound from the front and there were shocks as if the car hits a curb (no collision happened what so ever).

 

I just remembered it.

When I was driving at night of Aug 22 (the day of oil change), I stopped my car on roadside and checked what is wrong because of sharp and large noise along with shocks. Soon, a police patrol car came to me and asked about what is wrong. I said that I changed oil today and the car is making strange noise and shock. It seems that the office was mainly interested in removing my car from roadside; he asked whether I need a towing many times.

If there is any police record about it, and if I can get it, it will help to prove that the car was broken at Aug 22. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the patrol car # nor officer name. But I remember the location and time. Did the officer recorded my plate#? Did the officer reported my case?

Is there any record about it? Can I get it if it exist?

[fishbone]

If he did not cite you for anything then most likely no record anywhere.

[myth]

I just remembered it.

When I was driving at night of Aug 22 (the day of oil change), I stopped my car on roadside and checked what is wrong because of sharp and large noise along with shocks. Soon, a police patrol car came to me and asked about what is wrong. I said that I changed oil today and the car is making strange noise and shock. It seems that the office was mainly interested in removing my car from roadside; he asked whether I need a towing many times.

If there is any police record about it, and if I can get it, it will help to prove that the car was broken at Aug 22. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the patrol car # nor officer name. But I remember the location and time. Did the officer recorded my plate#? Did the officer reported my case?

Is there any record about it? Can I get it if it exist?

 

 

 

 

The transmission shop found no leak.

I asked and got a memo from the trans shop that they found no oil leak from my old trans+diff, on Sep 12 Mon. I will post the memo detail later.

 

I got the denial letter from Firestone.

I got it on Sep 15 Wed. Postmark shows that it took 1 week to deliver the mail. Snail mail. I will post the denial detail later.

 

Police cannot find my record.

Even with exact location and approx (~20min range), police could not find my record. It seems that there no record as you said.

 

Dispute credit card charge of Firestone?

At my 1st visit to Firestone (Aug 22), they charged ~$20 for engine oil change. I can dispute for it, although it is not a big deal compared to $2500 repair.

 

I will ask to a lawyer.

I found that a free legal consultation. I will bring and ask my case to a lawyer.

[myth]

The transmission shop found no leak.

I asked and got a memo from the trans shop that they found no oil leak from my old trans+diff, on Sep 12 Mon. I will post the memo detail later.

 

The transmission shop wrote it for me. Now it shows that there is no leak on old the differential.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

To whom it may concern,

2002 Subaru Legacy Lic#??????? Came to our repair facility with overheated differential assmly needing replacement due to lack of lube, no external or internal leaks were found on disassembly

Any questions call ??

-------------------------------------------------------

 

Now a next problem appear; How long will it take to damage diff without oil? Do you have any good reference for it?

[fishbone]

I don't think you need any solid evidence on how long a differential will get damaged without lubrication, every mechanic worth his salt should know they get toast pronto. If you want to get something like that, go to your Subaru dealer, explain them what's going on and see if they can write you something stating that the diffs cannot be operated without fluid.

[myth]

I don't think you need any solid evidence on how long a differential will get damaged without lubrication, every mechanic worth his salt should know they get toast pronto. If you want to get something like that, go to your Subaru dealer, explain them what's going on and see if they can write you something stating that the diffs cannot be operated without fluid.

 

Thank you for your advise.

I and you and most forum members here know it. But the problem it that judge may not know it, Since I met a lawyer and he did not know it.

[fishbone]

Then go to the Subaru dealer and ask them to put it in writing. They should have no problem doing this for you. You will also have the benefit of this coming straight from the dealer, and not some random shop, so it shouldn't be possible to dispute it. In fact, anyone trying to dispute it in court should be thrown out on account of being a complete moron. Differentials fail in short order without lubrication, same as a motor would without oil.