Legacy L 2.5i 2002 – front differential? whine

[myth]

It is pretty long story.

My vehicle is legacy L 2.5i (NA) 2002 4EAT, 127k mi.

I changed engine oil on Aug 22 morning at local Firestone. While check out, they suggested to change timing belt and front & rear differential oil. I said I will consider these.

Returning to home after oil change, I feel that the car is less powerful than before. And I heard whine from the front. So, I test the car with full throttle and the car seems Ok.

That day evening I drove a few miles, and I heard sharp and large metal scratching sound from the front and there were shocks as if the car hits a curb (no collision happened what so ever).

Next day (Aug 23) morning, I checked under the hood. And found that both ATF and front differential oil levels are very low; ATF can touch just bottom of the dipstick, and no front differential oil is shown at dipstick. I can see only black metal particles from differential dipstick.

I took the car to the Firestone again and said about it. After 1 hour, he said that they checked the car and ATF was slightly low. I asked about differential oil and he said that is Ok. And he could not find why the whine happens.

I drove back to home. ATF color is much brighter than before and it may suggest Firestone added significant amount of ATF. And found that still dipstick cannot even touch the differential oil. So I thought that the oil level is slight low since Firestone said the oil level is Ok. Then I went to local Pepboys to buy 1 quart differential oil (75W90). I poured it into the differential and checked the oil level, but dipstick still cannot touch the oil. So I bought another 1 quart and poured 0.5 more quart. Then finally the oil level shows full. Manual says that the front differential oil capacity is 1.3 quart, and I poured about 1.5 quart (including some spill and overfill). So I guess that the differential oil was empty.

Even after the oil is full, I still hears whine (sound like smooth scratching) when I push throttle pedal. And the sound become larger and larger. Today, I hear even irregular whine.

After the oil change, I frequently check the ATF and front differential oil. ATF seems Ok. But differenrial contains metal particles. When I stop the car and check the differential dipstick, oil looks black and contains metal particles. Then I put back the dipstick and pull it again, dipstick shows clean (no metal particle) and bright color.

 

So what happened? What can I do?

[fishbone]

What happened is most likely those monkeys started draining your fluids thinking you were going to say "OK, change them", but you said no and they either didn't fill them enough, or didn't fill them at all.

You're out of luck now, if you are POSITIVE that your ATF was NOT up to level and now it is, that means that they added transmission fluid. Of the wrong kind. You need to run OEM ATF. Since you now have two kinds of ATF, possibly a few good quards of the wrong stuff, you'll need to do a flush of the automatic fluid at the Subaru dealer.

When you went back to Firestone, did you just say your levels were low, or did you show them your levels were low. If you said the levels were low, you have nothing to stand on. If you showed them the fluids were low, you should have asked why and hold them to any potential damage this would have caused.

The front differential is probably damaged at this point due to operation with no fluid in the unit.

[myth]

You're out of luck now, if you are POSITIVE that your ATF was NOT up to level and now it is, that means that they added transmission fluid. Of the wrong kind. You need to run OEM ATF. Since you now have two kinds of ATF, possibly a few good quards of the wrong stuff, you'll need to do a flush of the automatic fluid at the Subaru dealer.

When you went back to Firestone, did you just say your levels were low, or did you show them your levels were low. If you said the levels were low, you have nothing to stand on. If you showed them the fluids were low, you should have asked why and hold them to any potential damage this would have caused.

The front differential is probably damaged at this point due to operation with no fluid in the unit.

 

The manual says to use Dexron III ATF, so fluid itself may be Ok if the Firestone filled Dexron III.

 

I just said the levels were low. And they seems do not admit the fault by saying that the fluids were just slightly low.

I have estimate to change (not low fluid level) differential oil. It suggest that the differential was not empty when I 1st went to Firestone. I have receipts for 2 bottles of differential oil and I think it may be a proof that differential was empty.

 

It is surprising that they only filled the ATF although I said both ATF and differential are low.

I even found that Firestone improperly installed engine air filter casing, maybe they checked the air filter and did not properly put it back. I installed it back properly.

 

About front differential, what may be the damage and how much may it cost?

[fishbone]

If Dexron III is OK for the 4EAT, then you should be OK.

I would still go over and present the receipts and tell them basically what you are writing here. Take it up to management, push it on them and make them own up to their mistake.

A front differential is not cheap, unfortunately.

Maybe those dipshits first drained your differential fluid by accident instead of your oil.

What Firestone was this? What address? Maybe some bad press will make them own up to their mistake.

[myth]

The whine decreases and goes away > 70mph.

 

If Dexron III is OK for the 4EAT, then you should be OK.

I would still go over and present the receipts and tell them basically what you are writing here. Take it up to management, push it on them and make them own up to their mistake.

A front differential is not cheap, unfortunately.

Maybe those dipshits first drained your differential fluid by accident instead of your oil.

What Firestone was this? What address? Maybe some bad press will make them own up to their mistake.

 

 

Thank you for your advise.

 

It was done by:

Firestone Complete Auto Care Store

Store # 018112

3931 Maple Rd

Amherst, NY 14226

(716) 837-7721

 

Mistake can happen. I understand it. But their response makes me angry.

I am thinking about what is the best way to contact them. Local store or Headquarter? I cannot find any way to directly contact a manager.

[fishbone]

Well, just go to the store and ask for the local manager and also a contact at their headquarters.

[Big Red]

Does it only whine on accel? Or does it whine on coast also? Have you drained the diff fluid since you thought you found metal chunks?

[myth]

Does it only whine on accel? Or does it whine on coast also? Have you drained the diff fluid since you thought you found metal chunks?

 

It whines on both accel and coast.

Metal chunk starts to appear on dipstick only after Firestone drained differential. There was no metal chunk on dipstick before. Then I filled differential. No, I have not drained the diff after that.

 

Where is the front diff drain? I guess it is near the ATF drain (can be accessed from the left), but could not find the diff drain yet.

[Big Red]

I have no idea where it is. I don't own an LGT...yet. I just work in a shop that specializes in diffs and trannys, so I'm trying to help out. Drain it, see if chunks come out or if it looks "milky". B/c it whines on both accel and coast, it leads me to beleive the bearings are pooched.

[myth]

I have no idea where it is. I don't own an LGT...yet. I just work in a shop that specializes in diffs and trannys, so I'm trying to help out. Drain it, see if chunks come out or if it looks "milky". B/c it whines on both accel and coast, it leads me to beleive the bearings are pooched.

 

Mine is not a LGT (Turbo), but just a Legacy L 2.5i NA 4EAT.

From the dipstick, diff oil does not look milky. Just metal dust and small slices. This is new oil which is less than 1 month.

[Big Red]

Does it smell burnt? Also, I'm not too sure about the subaru drivetrain. Is the front diff also part of the tranny?

[fishbone]

^ The diff fluid stinks bad enough, you'd be hard pressed to determine a smell of burnt I think.

myth, I THINK the drain plug is a T70 torx bit for the front diff. Can you find such a plug? It's a large star-shaped one.

[Big Red]

No, burnt 75w90 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse than regular 75w90. Imagine burning plastic and hair together. Like if Pam Anderson caught fire...That's what burnt gear oil smells like.

[myth]

^ The diff fluid stinks bad enough, you'd be hard pressed to determine a smell of burnt I think.

myth, I THINK the drain plug is a T70 torx bit for the front diff. Can you find such a plug? It's a large star-shaped one.

 

There is slight smell of burnt rubber, sometimes.

 

I cannot find T70 torx bit from underbody. Where is it?

ATF and rear differential drain are both standard hex 17mm.

[Big Red]

Here:

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94834&highlight=diff+fluid

[myth]

Here:

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94834&highlight=diff+fluid

 

From the link, it seems that differential drain is between CVJ. I will find it.

Thanks.

It is interesting that front and rear drain use different head.

[myth]

Well, just go to the store and ask for the local manager and also a contact at their headquarters.

 

I sent an e-mail about it to Firestone through their website last night. I could not get any response yet. I do not know whether it goes to HQ or local. But considering HQ maililg address shown at this page, I guess that it goes to HQ.

http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/feedback/getContact.action

 

It seems that Firestone does not provide reparing transmission nor differental. I check Firestone website but could not find such a service.

http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/repair/alignment.jsp

http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/repair/engine.jsp

It suggest that Firestone cannot repair my transmission or differental.

[Big Red]

That doesn't mean that they shouldn't fix it. It just means that they should foot the bill where it does get fixed. For example, at work on thursday we had a truck in for a clutch job. After the clutch job was done the speedo didn't work. We checked the speedo sensor and tone ring but still couldn't find the probelm. B/c we don't do electrical work, we sent it to a shop that does. We messed up, so we fix it...Any decent shop should do the same.

[myth]

From the link, it seems that differential drain is between CVJ. I will find it.

Thanks.

It is interesting that front and rear drain use different head.

 

I found the front differential drain. It is not easy to find since it is covered by exhaust. And there is marking "diff oil". It is just a plain hex head. The above link (changing diff oil) was very helpful to know where it is. (between both CVJs) Thank you.

I found that the front differential drain is still wet. Wet drain suggest that the diff has been drained recently. ATF drain is still wet also. I took a few photos of it. I will post pictures if possible.

[myth]

Is there any local on-line forum to post it? I expect different types of advise from local forum.

I am in Buffalo, NY, USA area.

[myth]

I sent an e-mail about it to Firestone through their website last night. I could not get any response yet. I do not know whether it goes to HQ or local. But considering HQ maililg address shown at this page, I guess that it goes to HQ.

http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/feedback/getContact.action

 

 

I could not get any response for 4 days from Firestone.

 

So I filed a complaint at BBB (Better Business Bureau). Link is the Firestone complaint stat.

http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/business-reviews/auto-repair-and-service/firestone-tire-and-service-in-williamsville-ny-3309/

 

There is also Forestone's own customer survey.

http://www.firestonesurvey.com/

I selected negative answers then the site wanted me to leave contact info for area manager.

 

 

Is there any other way to file complaint or claim?

[Big Red]

Have you talked to the manager of the Firestone where it all happened? I would approach him also.

[myth]

I could not get any response for 4 days from Firestone.

 

So I filed a complaint at BBB (Better Business Bureau). Link is the Firestone complaint stat.

http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/business-reviews/auto-repair-and-service/firestone-tire-and-service-in-williamsville-ny-3309/

 

There is also Forestone's own customer survey.

http://www.firestonesurvey.com/

I selected negative answers then the site wanted me to leave contact info for area manager.

 

 

Is there any other way to file complaint or claim?

 

I got a phone call 2 days ago from Firestone. Caller's area # 630 is west Chicago where is the region for HQ.

 

The Firestone staff (Dave) said that he is confused. Since it is not possible to drain diff and ATF during engine oil change. I said that "Firestone technician might think that I agreed to change diff oil".

Dave also said that it is not possible for technician to drain ATF since a car cannot move with ATF drained. I said that car can still move with 1/2 ATF drained; full ATF drain requires special device. And there are thread on Subaru forum that a car moves with 1/2 drained.

Dave argued that there was ATF leak, not ATF drain. My answer is that I cannot find any sign of leak; ATF does not decrease and there is no oil on the ground under the car.

Dave also said that the diff might be previous damaged but one could not notice. I said I have been to Subaru dealer a few times, but there was no mention about it. Then Dave said that even Subaru dealer may not find it since there is no dipstick for diff. So I told him that there is diff dipstick in Subaru. It seems that he do not believe that Subaru has diff dipstick.

I said "Come and see. Diff and ATF drain are still wet with oil." But Dave said that he cannot do it before damage report.

Dave wanted me to inspect my car at the mechanic I selected. And fax him the report that the car was damaged by oil drain. He said he can start to to something only after the report. And I agreeed.

 

After the conversation, I found a problem. To inspect diff and trannny, mechanic may need to drain oil. Then Dave may argue that the drain is wet because of the inspection. I left a voice message about it to Dave yesterday evening, but there was no response yet.

[myth]

After the conversation, I found a problem. To inspect diff and trannny, mechanic may need to drain oil. Then Dave may argue that the drain is wet because of the inspection. I left a voice message about it to Dave yesterday evening, but there was no response yet.

 

I called Firestone Dave a few times, but I could not talk with him; it was directed to voice mail every time. I left a voice message again.

[myth]

I found the front differential drain. It is not easy to find since it is covered by exhaust. And there is marking "diff oil". It is just a plain hex head. The above link (changing diff oil) was very helpful to know where it is. (between both CVJs) Thank you.

I found that the front differential drain is still wet. Wet drain suggest that the diff has been drained recently. ATF drain is still wet also. I took a few photos of it. I will post pictures if possible.

 

Now I post pics.

1st = diff drain plug. Only plug and around are wet. Note the marking "DIFF OIL"

2nd = ATF drain plug. Only plug and around are wet.

 

Pics are taken Sep 21, Mon.