EJ20R engine won't fire, help??

[72RSbug]

Hello, I'm new to this forum and am having issues with my EJ20TT engine.

 

This is the situation:

 

Got an 1996 EJ20TT with a 4 plug ECU in a VW bug, all is fine until part of the main loom gets melted against the secondary turbo and the ECU is dead.

 

Then I replaced the main loom with one from another EJ20R but this one has a 3 plug ECU.

 

When I trie, it starts up first go but engine stops after about 15 seconds because the ECU isn't powering the fuel pump relay.

 

Next few times I try to start it up the spark plugs are soaking wet in fuel, when I clean them the engine will start up a few times but same story as before.

 

When I power the fuel pump directly instead of letting the ECU do it, no change.

 

The when cranking, a small puff of smoke comes up from the engine around the knock sensor area and there's a smell of something burned.

 

After that happened the spark plugs do not fire when I test them separately outside of the engine when cranking.

 

Any EJ20R guru's out there that might have an idea?

 

I'm trying to get hold of new crank and cam sensors and also new coils but it's not easy since I live in Belgium.

 

Is there a way to test if the coil packs are working or not (they have 3 wires each so I'm not sure where to put 12V or ground on them).

 

Sorry for the long post but I really don't know why it won't start up and I can't take it to a garage over here.

 

 

 

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/3378/2641/8443820209_large.jpg

[Platinum_Racing]

First off, I just want to say wonderful car. That is the best Subaru engine swap ever.

 

Secondly, if the car ran with a 4 plug ECU, I'd suggest replacing the 3 plug ECU with another 4 plug version.

 

The thing with replacing other parts like the coil is that the engine ran fine with the current coil and a 4 plug ECU. If you replace the coil and the sensors and the car runs the same, you're back to square 1. Chances are, the coil wasn't fried at the same exact time that the ECU was fried. The car ran with the 3 plug ECU, but didn't stay running, it seems like the ECU isn't doing what it should. If it were the coil the car would run, just very poorly. If it were the sensors it would run, but hesitate, stumble, and give you sub-par performance. It's highly unlikely that the sensors/coil died at the same time te ECU did. I'd blame the issue on the 3 plug ECU.

[Reuben]

Ah hah! i know one difference between EJ20H (what you have) coils, and EJ20R (What your loom/ECU is off) coils

 

EJ20H coils do not have an ignitor in them, they have a seperate ignitor, EJ20R coils have the ignitor in the coils, so are "Ignitor-on-coil-on-plug" I don't know if that will make a difference though, the only thing the ECU does is tell the ignitor to spark, it doesn't matter where that ignitor may be though...

 

I do assume you swapped everything over you needed to right? or was that what the parts request to me on SLi was? You need to run the yellow top injectors, orange AFM and 3-bar map sensor with the GTB EJ20R 3-plug ECU. Everything else should work fine with the ECU.

 

If you still want my GTB coils (i did a coil pack upgrade cause i converted to an STi setup), i'll let them go for 100 euro's, plus shipping.

 

 

And platnum racing, i really really wouldn't be so quick to blame the ECU. The ECU simply needs it's supporting components, the orange afm, and yellow injectors. The 3-plug upgrade is actually a huge upgrade, and worth EVERY penny. I've actually seen more than one upgrade like this. My friend upgraded his 1990 GT sedan to a 6S (V3 STi ECU) and it runs excelent now. I've done a single turbo conversion to an EJ20H using a forrester ECU, we've yet to have first startup though, it's still a work in progress. And another mate of mine is running another 6S in his 1990 GT wagon, and that car makes more power than mine!!

 

The twin turbo setup is hell on earth when it comes to tracking down gremlins. I'd double check to make sure that the solenoid box has been setup correctly. Do you have a check engine light hooked up? i would strongly recomend that, without it, and trying to fix a twin turbo, is like doing open heart surgery blind folded.

 

 

Oh btw, my mum's from belgium, from Nouvain-la-Neuve. I don't speak a word of french though I'd still love to visit, last time i went i was about 5 years old

[72RSbug]

These are the coils I've got on it, they should be the correct ones for the 3 plug ECU.

 

When I power the ECU with the ignition on, the 4 coils each get power on their respective yellow wire and the 4 yellow injectors each get power on both their wires which I assume is normal.

 

Right now my best guess is the crank sensor is broken (can I measure this somehow and what would the correct values be?). I've got a new crank and cam sensor coming from the U.S., really hoping that will solve things.

 

@ reuben, thanks for the offer but my coils should still be working. If I should need replacements I'll let you know.

[Reuben]

To be honest, i'd upgrade to a coil pack setup like on the single turbo's. You gain reliability.

 

And i don't know what values you should be getting from the cam and crank sensors btw. I do bileave if either are not reading, the ECU doesn't inject fuel. I may have that wrong.

 

Are you running the orange sticker air flow meter btw? The 3-plug TT ecu's only run orange sticker AFM's, and yellow top injectors. The car may idle ok on the purple afm and grey tops, but the moment you start driving or reving, it will run lean, or not run at all.

[72RSbug]

Are you running the orange sticker air flow meter btw? The 3-plug TT ecu's only run orange sticker AFM's, and yellow top injectors. The car may idle ok on the purple afm and grey tops, but the moment you start driving or reving, it will run lean, or not run at all.

 

I have the orange AFM and yellow top injectors, am waiting for a new crank sensor to get here and give it a try (fingers crossed).

[Reuben]

Should be good, should be good. If you need anything from NZ just ask mate.

[72RSbug]

Today I changed the crank and cam sensors for new ones but still no spark :grindteeth:

The ECU is now getting a signal from cam and crank sensors when I crank the engine but no spark.

The coil packs aren't getting a signal to fire the spark plugs.

 

I have 2 wiring looms and 2 3 plug 4G ECU's to suit so I tried changing them but without succes.

What is very weird is with 1 loom, the second I stop cranking it sends a signal to 1 coil pack (front left one ) and that spark plug fires 1 time only.

 

Any ideas on this????

 

I've tried cleaning the air flow meter with some brake cleaned but all is still the same, this is becoming very, very frustrating.

[Reuben]

What is very weird is with 1 loom, the second I stop cranking it sends a signal to 1 coil pack (front left one ) and that spark plug fires 1 time only.

 

Any ideas on this????

 

I've tried cleaning the air flow meter with some brake cleaned but all is still the same, this is becoming very, very frustrating.

 

I've seen this before. Only once. crank crank crank, no spark.. when you stop cranking, Whoomph, you get ONE fire.

 

It's on a car i'm working on at the moment, we have re-pinned the ECU, to run a 3-plug ECU. (Car is originally a 4-plug twin turbo (EJ20H GT)).

 

We have not fixed it yet, the car is still a work in progress!!!

 

 

 

I'm going to GUESS... that it might be something to do with a bad looming/re-pinning. My next idea is to get a multi meter, find the pins on the coil packs that talk to the ECU, and link them up to the ECU. And just check that the ECU pin that controls ignition for cyl 4 is actually talking to the coil back on cyl 4...

 

 

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa208/Pilot_Reuben/Single%20Conversion/3-plugface.jpg

 

On a 3-plug TWIN turbo ECU

 

A10 - Ignition 1

A09 - Ignition 2

A23 - Ignition 3

A22 - Ignition 4

 

On a 3-plug SINGLE turbo ECU

 

A10 - Ignition 1 and 2

A09 - Ignition 3 and 4

 

^This is wasted spark

 

 

3-plug TT ecu pinout can be found here:

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa208/Pilot_Reuben/Single%20Conversion/conversion19.jpg

PDF format

[72RSbug]

That's very interesting, I'd love to hear the solution for that if you find it.

 

My ECU is definitely a twin turbo ECU and it's A09 that's giving the one signal to the coil pack.

 

I've replaced the engine's loom with a spare one now and now there's no spark at all...

[72RSbug]

Received a different crank sensor in the mail today.

 

With the new sensor in, put some starter spray in the intake and after about 5 tries the engine started up and kept going

 

It did hower blow out white smoke, might have different causes but will have to find out and when revving it shreeked and whined and blew hose nr. 12 of the solenoid box(no idea what that could mean).

 

After a minute or 2 turned of the engine (because the cooling system isn't properly bled yet and I don't want to overheat the engine)

 

But now, it wont start again!!

 

This is really getting ridiculous and I'm about to pull my hair out.

[72RSbug]

Update:

 

Just dropped the injectors off to get cleaned and tested, we'll see where that takes us.

The mechanic said that if the injectors turn out to be ok the problem will be either in the cold start system or either a broken cam sensor or ECU.

 

Before dropping off the injectors I got it running again (cleaned the spark plugs which where black), started up with the starter pilot and ran good for about 5 minutes before stalling.

 

Pulled the spark plugs again and they where black once again. I'm really hoping getting the injectors cleaned will solve this all. Should know on Thursday.

[Reuben]

Mean, you got it running! This will make tracking down the problem a bit easier. Did you get any check engine light's? If you don't have a CEL hooked up, i'd strongly recomend it, trying to fix a subie without knowing what code it's thrown is a dificult thing...

 

I'll try and remember to call the parts guy tomorrow and find out about cank and cam angle sensors for you. It sounds like the car is running excessively rich, which might be linked to the angle sensors.

 

There's also the o2 sensor, and the air-flow-meter to think about. Do you know anyone that owns a GTB or V3/4 STi?

[eekay]

Did this is so cool! I can't wait to see this thing in action!

[Reuben]

Got off the phone just now, they guy said there's isn't much different with the crank and cam angle sensors at all, and doesn't really think that will be your problem.

[72RSbug]

Got off the phone just now, they guy said there's isn't much different with the crank and cam angle sensors at all, and doesn't really think that will be your problem.

 

Thanks Reuben, really appreciate the help.

 

 

Was able to work on the engine for a few hours today.

 

Put in new platinum plugs (0.8mm opening)

 

Put the injectors back in with new "O" ring.

 

Conclusion: Engine starts up occasionally but only when revving while cranking. Most times it won't start up at all.

 

-When it does start it runs nicely and the coolant temp. risis nicely to somewhere between 135 and 150 degrees Fahrenheit and then it stopt idling and dies.

 

Right now I have no idea why it only somethimes starts, have swapped cam sensors but no difference.

 

I'm expecting another MAF next week, maybe that helps.

 

At least the spark plugs aren't wet any more so the new "O" rings cured the overfueling.

[72RSbug]

Good news, after replacing the Optima Yellow Top battery I had it now fires up every single time http://www.uklegacy.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

 

It still won't keep idling when coolant temps. reach about 135 and higher, I'm trying to get hold of another coolant temp. sensor and hope that will fix it.

 

Will also most likely need to fab up a vehicle speed sensor (anyone know if this engine/ ECUr really need one?)/

 

Also need to wire in the Primary boost controller, I think it's negative is A3 on the ECU pinout but am not sure.

[Reuben]

Use the pinouts i posted earlier, they are dead on mate. As for the speed sensor, i have no idea if the ECU needs it. Atleast with it, you'll have the 180kmh speed cut. Being twin turbo though, i bet you do need it Only one way to find out though!

 

And are you using a subaru gearbox?

[72RSbug]

And are you using a subaru gearbox?

 

No, I'm using a built VW type 1 gearbox with an adapter plate and custom flywheel.

 

 

Managed to get the CEL light working (the pinout on the ECU is the negative side of the light bulb and not the positive like I thought).

 

 

Ran the engine and after that got code 23 (Air Flow Sensor) and code 12 Starter Switch).

 

I changed out the MAF and it made a big difference, when cold it started up way better ( no throttle needed at all).

 

It still doesn't want to idle when warm and dies when I don't give it throttle.

 

I disconnected the battery now and am hoping that when the ECU is reset this will cure the engine not idling when warm(is this possible?).

 

As for code 12, I have no idea how to fix that since I have the engine in a VW Bug. Is it even worth it to try to fix this as I can't imagine what would be the result of the ECU throwing this code.

[Reuben]

no idea. find a wiring diagram and see what roles the starter switch have other than being a starter switch.

 

As for the dieing when warm thing, i really really have no idea what it could be...

[72RSbug]

Seems that there was air trapped in the coolant lines going through the IACV. After that I fiddled with the position of the IACV and now it idles at around 1050 RPW when warm. Any lower then that and it dies but I can live with that.

 

Also sprayed some injection engine cleaner in the big air hose going to the IACV but that didn't seem to make a difference.

 

As for the starter switch error. From what I'e found online, the "starter" pin (C2) on the ECU should be connected to the signal wire going from the ignition key to the starter solenoid. Haven't tried it yet though.

[72RSbug]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XH4vFT4AX8]YouTube - Subaru twin turbo VW Bug[/ame]