phillijp Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Got a few questions about my '96 Legacy's 2.2L engine. It's due a timing belt and it has a waterfall of oil coming from behind the timing belt cover. I have attached a picture of the cam sprocket. There are two marks on the gear so I don't know which one lines up with the mark on the crank sprocket. The crank is lined up with the mark in the red circle but the diagram I downloaded from Mitchell On Demand seems to suggest the notch inside the blue circle is the alignment notch I should be using. It seems to run fine though I don't know the full history of this car so I don't assume anything. The oil leak has me perplexed. I see definite seepage from the cam seals and for sure around the oil pump but for all the caked on oil on the pan and undercarriage I guess I expected a real oil bath once I pulled off the cover. I've searched this forum for posts on these oil leaks and none of them discuss the gasket between the oil pump and the block. I may find my smoking gun once I get the belt and tensioners out of the way. I guess I'm looking for expertise here from people who know these engines inside and out. Any help is greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillijp Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Here are the photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBucket Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Well, if its not the seal between the pump and the block it may well be the front main. Not sure what to tell you about the timing marks. Do you have the service manuals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadnuts Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 I always align the marks at 12-o-clock, meaning the crank sprocket and both cam sprockets marks will be straight up. The blue circle is the correct mark to use, it looks like a small I or hash mark, and is the same on all three sprockets. The Arrow mark is a top dead center mark and is used when adjusting valves/etc.. I'd recommend removing the oil pump and replacing the o-ring behind and while you're there check the phillips screws that hold the pump together, they tend to loosen up. Certainly replace all seals, especially if they're black in color! (OEM:eek:) I just replaced some on a 96 with 200K, all original!! Leaked like a siv though! Anyways, when the new belt is put on, you'll see how the marks on the belt correspond with the sprockets. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillijp Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 I got the belt and all the tensioners and gears off. The driver's side cam is pouring oil out of the seal (my smoking gun). The passenger side is seeping and the crank is somewhere in between (sorry for the pun). I do believe the O-ring is leaking but I'm just not 100% on the gasket. I'll probably replace it for piece of mind since I'm this far in. My new question is what is the process for removing and replacing the seals for the cams and the O-ring? To me the cam seal looks like a bearing more than anything else. Perhaps the new seals will cause his to make sense to me. Removing the crank pulley is another question. There are two holes on either side of the hole for the crank bolt. Will these accept bolts for a puller or is there a different way? What are the favorite items to replace on a job like this? I'm thinking waterpump, tensioners, belt, gaskets, seals of course, anything I'm missing? What about the "thing" that tensions the belt (where you stick the pin till you are done)? Side note I reread Mitchell and the marks in the blue circle of my picture line up with notches in the timing belt rear covers and the crank gear lines up with a notch on the block. This engine was way out of timing like 20 degrees (guesstimate) is that even possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillijp Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 I always align the marks at 12-o-clock, meaning the crank sprocket and both cam sprockets marks will be straight up. The blue circle is the correct mark to use, it looks like a small I or hash mark, and is the same on all three sprockets. The Arrow mark is a top dead center mark and is used when adjusting valves/etc.. I'd recommend removing the oil pump and replacing the o-ring behind and while you're there check the phillips screws that hold the pump together, they tend to loosen up. Certainly replace all seals, especially if they're black in color! (OEM:eek:) I just replaced some on a 96 with 200K, all original!! Leaked like a siv though! Anyways, when the new belt is put on, you'll see how the marks on the belt correspond with the sprockets. Hope this helps. It does help, thank you. Thanks for the confirmation on the timing marks. Re: oil pump O-ring, to replace this you make it sound like I need to remove the pump to find the O-ring? I will check the screws on the pump, thanks. Should I go OEM on the seals, gaskets, etc or can I go aftermarket? Does anyone make an all in one gasket/seal kit for this type of job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadnuts Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Yes, the oil pump must be removed to replace the o-ring and tighten the screws, a very easy job, just remove the 10mm bolts around the pump, the 2 sprockets surrounding it, unplug the crank sensor, and voila. The seals can simply be pryed out with a small but strong flat blade screw driver, or seal remover if you have one. On your engine, you will want to remove the driver's side cam support and replace the o-ring behind it. 2- 10mm and 1- 12 mm bolts and it walks off after unplugging the cam sensor. I'd say go OEM but I'm biased working at a dealer. Certainly replace the waterpump, gasket, t-stat and gasket, and don't forget the bypass hose attached to the pump! Not sure if A/M has a all in one kit or not. If you were local, I'd give you all the seals you need, I have a draw full of em'! Your tensioner should fine unless it's pin-hole is broken off. The "thing where the pin goes" is the tensioner. I'd just spin all the pulleys/sprockets by hand to confirm any unusual noises/feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillijp Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Yes, the oil pump must be removed to replace the o-ring and tighten the screws, a very easy job, just remove the 10mm bolts around the pump, the 2 sprockets surrounding it, unplug the crank sensor, and voila. The seals can simply be pryed out with a small but strong flat blade screw driver, or seal remover if you have one. On your engine, you will want to remove the driver's side cam support and replace the o-ring behind it. 2- 10mm and 1- 12 mm bolts and it walks off after unplugging the cam sensor. I'd say go OEM but I'm biased working at a dealer. Certainly replace the waterpump, gasket, t-stat and gasket, and don't forget the bypass hose attached to the pump! Not sure if A/M has a all in one kit or not. If you were local, I'd give you all the seals you need, I have a draw full of em'! Your tensioner should fine unless it's pin-hole is broken off. The "thing where the pin goes" is the tensioner. I'd just spin all the pulleys/sprockets by hand to confirm any unusual noises/feel. Thanks again All but one tensioner is smooth and quiet. I think I'm going with the all in one kit and add the other pieces ala carte. Can I replace the T-stat at a later date? It looks like the housing is under the pump. I ask this because after I get this all back together I need to degrease the undercarriage. The crud is so thick I can't even detect any signs of a hose clamp on the lower hose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillijp Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Got the cam support off and the seal is out. Wow that was a mother to get out (crumbly pieces for the most part). To get the remainder out I needed to fold the seal in half with screwdriver and hammer. I have no idea how I'm going to get the other one out. I have friends with really big tool boxes, maybe I need to get with them tomorrow and seet what they have to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberman Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 If you get stuck, there's a tremendous amount of users on nasioc.com (and a 2.2L forum) that would be able to guide you through the questions & procedures. When I did my first head gasket job on my '00 Outback, I did a bunch of searching for Subaru timing belt replacement using google and found many sites with detailed instructions & pictures for aligning the cam timing marks with the timing belt. Good luck, these engines really disassemble and go back together quite well, almsot like lego's once you work with them a little. I've always replaced the timing belt tensioner just in case, most likely they are ok, but if the timing belt skips a few teeth while the engine is running there can be disastrous results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadnuts Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 The T-stat is housed inside the water pump. It makes sense to do it now if you're already changing the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillijp Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 The T-stat is housed inside the water pump. It makes sense to do it now if you're already changing the pump. I would agree. I got the passenger side seal out using a seal puller (really just a small slide hammer). While drilling the holes to run a screw into the seal I nicked the cam. It's extremely small more like a slight scratch in my opinion. I wanted to see how bad it was so I ran a Q-tip around the cam and the scratch grabbed maybe two cotton fibers. How bad is this? Next Question. How do I pull the timing gear on the crank? I thought the little holes were threaded, they are not. It looks like I need a jaw type of puller, is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdubs Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Did you replace the Oring on back of the cam support on the driver's side? That was what was leaking for me, not the cam seal. Although I replaced all seals, which appeared to have some minor seepage, nothing major. The timing gear slides right off. It may need some convincing to get it started. Be careful of the ring sensors behind it, you don't want to hit these with a screwdriver or anything. I used a small screwdriver on one side, and a wide flat bladed interior trim removal tool on the other and evenly pulled both sides, and she slid right out. It shouldn't be on there to the point that you have to use a puller to get it off. I have a garage full of tools, and mostly all I used were a few metric wrenches, sockets, breaker bar, long piece of wood, a c clamp, screwdrivers, and a torque wrench. We aren't counting how many beers were consumed though, that was my coping tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadnuts Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 The scratch on the camshaft should ok, unless you've removed material from where the cam seal sits on it. Chances are, since it's hardened, you didn't do any real damage. Yes, the crank sprocket "should" pull right off sans tools, however, since it's an older car, and is probably rusted/corroded you will need to pry it off. A pry bar or large screwdriver should get things moving, but as Bdubs mentioned, be very careful around the teeth that the crank sensor reads. If these break you will have to replace the sprocket. A little penetrating oil for a few minutes should loosen things up. I have, however, seen them so bad that the holes you mentioned had to be tapped and a bolt-grip puller used to remove. This is extremely rare though! You may want to try tapping it with a light hammer to loosen it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillijp Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 The scratch on the camshaft should ok, unless you've removed material from where the cam seal sits on it. Chances are, since it's hardened, you didn't do any real damage. Yes, the crank sprocket "should" pull right off sans tools, however, since it's an older car, and is probably rusted/corroded you will need to pry it off. A pry bar or large screwdriver should get things moving, but as Bdubs mentioned, be very careful around the teeth that the crank sensor reads. If these break you will have to replace the sprocket. A little penetrating oil for a few minutes should loosen things up. I have, however, seen them so bad that the holes you mentioned had to be tapped and a bolt-grip puller used to remove. This is extremely rare though! You may want to try tapping it with a light hammer to loosen it up. Didn't have time to pull it tonight but there's no hurry since I'm waiting on parts. The O-ring is part of the plan. I got some fine emery cloth and plan on wet sanding the cam just to knock any burr down. Necessary or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadnuts Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 You can use some emery cloth, just keep an eye on where the burr is in relation to the seal. That's really the only place I'd worry about. As I'm sure you know, grease up the seals with something like wheel bearing grease or vaseline before installing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillijp Posted April 11, 2009 Author Share Posted April 11, 2009 Yes I was aware but thank you. I played with the crank gear yesterday morning. It was moving a little using flat head screw drivers, gentle pressure and tapping on the crank. I soaked it with liquid wrench and let it be for the day. I'll finish it tomorrow and start replacing parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillijp Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 Ok, I'm ready to start putting all of this back together. Is there a way to prime the oil pump other than just cranking for a long time? If cranking is the only way, how long should I crank it before I let it start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osei Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 would suggest a call to the dealer , if no one here replies. On other engines I've replaced the oil pump on, the guide was to fill the pump cavity with grease before reinstalling. Sort of like priming the pump. O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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