Anyone else done the dreaded 3rd to 2nd downshift with their manual?

[TAckhouse1]

I have driven an M3 with SMG before its quite unimpressive. Its more of a quicker shifting automatic with steering wheel paddles than a true sequential gearbox. It dosent even have a clutch for those times you wanna have a little bit of fun.

 

True sequentials like ones used in racing wont make it onto the market until they find a way to dampen the shift without sacrificing shift responsiveness and speed. They shift HARD and FAST. It almost seems as if you are breaking somthing evertime you hit the paddle.

 

Rob,

 

I believe you are wrong the M3 SMG is a true squential manual (there is no Torque converter), with a real clutch (that just happens to be computer controlled)

 

also if you felt the shifts were lazy, you may have had it in the wrong "shift program"

 

The M3 has 6 manual shift programs, A1-A6

 

The driver may select mode A1 (relaxed shifts, low-rpm upshift points, late downshifts) to A5 (fast, high-rpm shifts, and ultra-quick downshifts). We found A1 and A2 just too lazy for our tastes under almost all conditions. A3 is just right for normal driving, A4 ideal for spirited runs through the mountains, and A5 for playing non-virtual Granturismo3. And then there's A6, which amounts to full-commando upshifts that occur in 0.08 sec. Drivelogic also works when the trans is set for fully automatic operation. A handy dash icon reminds the driver which overall mode the transmission is in and which Drivelogic mode is selected.

 

http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_0208_trans03/

[KTM 525]

Remember in all my years of driving (i've had a couple manuals) I never had done this either. It can happen to anyone regardless of how good you are at shifting. Though I do like the backhand technique described here and think it's helps eliminate this issue. I have learned a couple of habits good and bad here on this board. I was never aware of the fact you should keep your hand off the shifter while driving. This is something I always did and no longer do. I just wish I had read the little backhand tidbit before my mishap occered.

[f1anatic]

I was doing about 40-45-ish when it happened. I use the back hand technique as well...and i get it usually right...but it happened 3 times. And no...i was just at about 3K rpm

[f1anatic]

I try to shift at about 2500 so that I save fuel and stay off boost. Though I also have to admit...yesterday was the first time I showed the car to some of my friends...and wasted half a fuel tank in just 150 miles or so...with some quick blasts of acceleration. But I am cured now.

[RobY]

Rob,

 

I believe you are wrong the M3 SMG is a true squential manual (there is no Torque converter), with a real clutch (that just happens to be computer controlled)

 

also if you felt the shifts were lazy, you may have had it in the wrong "shift program"

 

The M3 has 6 manual shift programs, A1-A6

 

 

 

http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_0208_trans03/

 

I never said it had a torque converter. The one that I drove didn't impress me much. I was unsure what mode I was in but I was dissapointed that it didnt have a clutch.

 

WRC sequentials lack some of the computer controlled Jazz come with a user operable clutch and really puts the driver in control of the car. IF your not carefull you can even stall one of these puppies.

 

I guess what im saying is that I dont want no watered down Sequential that acts like an automatic. I want a sequential that acts like a manual.

[melayout]

I never said it had a torque converter. The one that I drove didn't impress me much. I was unsure what mode I was in but I was dissapointed that it didnt have a clutch.

 

WRC sequentials lack some of the computer controlled Jazz come with a user operable clutch and really puts the driver in control of the car. IF your not carefull you can even stall one of these puppies.

 

I guess what im saying is that I dont want no watered down Sequential that acts like an automatic. I want a sequential that acts like a manual.

 

From this link:

 

" The Sequential Manual Gearbox, aka Sequential M Gearbox ( since, for now, the only US BMW to have SMG-II is the E46 M3 ). It's not an automatic, and its not a manual. It's a sort of mix between the two. There's no torque convertor ( like a manual ), yet the driver can opt to have the onboard computers change gears for him ( like an automatic ). Oh, and there's no need for a clutch -- SMG-II does it all itself via hydraulics. OK. So picture a manual, but without a clutch pedal. Instead of the conventional H-pattern, SMG-II gives drivers something different. Drivers can still opt to row their own gears ( hitting the rev limiter just like a normal manual ), but changing gears happens in the blink of an eye by pulling back or forward on the "shifter". 80milliseconds. No human could possibly change that fast. Oh, and if you have to downshift, you'll even get a little throttle blip as SMG-II matches revs. Heel-toe driving gone, perfect shifts every time. "

 

What more can you ask for?

More on what SMG offers:

 

"

The new SMG II gearbox has these features and benefits:

 

 

 

• You can choose between two shift modes, the sequential ("S") mode or the automated ("A") mode.
  
• "Drivelogic" allows you to individually match the SMG's shift characteristic to your preferred driving habits, with eleven different driving programs.
  
• When downshifting, the engine will automatically double-declutch.
  
• There is no need for a clutch, clutch pedal or torque converter.
  
• It is easy to select the optimum shift point with the "shift lights", LEDs in the cockpit indicating the optimum shift point on the tachometer.
  

With SMG, you can use S mode (sequential manual) or A mode (automated). The "A" Mode was called "E" Mode (economy) in SMG I.

 

A Mode provides the convenience of an automatic transmission for start and stop driving, while S Mode provides lightning fast gear shifts even with the accelerator pedal fully depressed.

 

You can easily perform a racing start! Select the S mode, push the gear lever forward, and depress the accelerator.

 

You can change modes "on the fly" at any time."

[redline76]

melayout - You're quoting product literature while RobY has stated he has actually driven an M3 with SMG. As he is probably a stick driver who didn't subscribe to the manumatic concept, I would tend to value his assesment more until I actually drive one and determine for myself.

 

"Hopefully the consumers' favoring of automatics over manuals will push the industry to phase them out and replace them with the likes of BMW's SMG, and Audi's DSG."

 

Why hopefully? Why at all? Do you think a Porsche or Ferrari should not be offered with a purely manual transmission? Do you think that Kia, Daewoo or any other maufacturer will invest in this technology when it adds cost and complexity to inexpensive cars being sold on razor thin margins as it is?

 

"Research and development has shifted away from truly manual transmissions and is leading to lower reliability, especially with increasing engine power output."

 

I'm not sure I follow this statement. Lower reliabilty for manual transmissions? Which cars?Due to lack of R&D?

 

Prove it.

 

"Auto-manu-matic transmission technology has come a long way and will eventually match manual transmission technology."

 

You just said that manual transmission technology is on a decline due to lack of R&D. Does this mean that the technology adoption curve for manumatic and the abandonment curve for manual will meet at a lower point of sophistication, technological advancement, or reliabilty than say, a Tremec 5-speed?"

 

Or are you saying that manumatics, which involve a great deal more technological advancements than the most sophisticated purely manual transmission are devolving in complexity to the point where they no longer use electronics or hydraulics to shift?

 

I'm confused.

 

Not to start a flame war, but do you know how to drive a manual transmission-equipped car? It's actually kind of fun! The only downside I have with it is that it prevents me from doing all the things I really want to be doing while driving a car, i.e. eating, taking on my phone, shaving, tweezing my eyebrows, smoking a bowl, you know, all the important stuff before I get to work.

 

-w-

[RobY]

No doubt the transmission shifts fast... im not disputing this, But it lacks feel. I was unimpressed.

 

I mean you get one big accellerator pedal and a brake pedal. No clutch... I would really like a user operable clutch. It really feels like you are driving a really quick shifting automatic in sports mode. The computer controlled SMG launches are in my opinion not as effective as a good clutched launch.

 

It is almost like manufying an automatic theme rather than automating a manual theme.

 

There are many situations that would be impossible to do without a clutch. I like going out on less than tractive situations sometimes and letting my car hang out...

 

For example If I were to drive a 180 degree hairpin loop in my car in snow or gravel I goose the acelerator get the rear end out get sideways until the front of my car is facing the direction I want to go countersteer, add throttle to cancel rearward momentum, disengage the clutch apply a bit of brake the car slides sideways from the sideways momentum, then I pop the clutch apply throttle and sling shot around the corner countersteer a bit then floor it.

 

I would have no idea how to do that or if it is even possible in a clutchless manual...

 

Im also not sure If I want to eliminate the heel to toe... Heel to toe allows you to prepare to shift into a lower gear in preperation for a turn.

 

Im aware that the SMG does it for you but what happens if you don't want the engine braking that is accompanied by a downshift. Without a clutch it is impossible for you to shift to a lower gear and not get instantaneous engine braking when off the throttle.

 

Coming into a turn you can brake then shift into a lower gear while the clutch is in. When sliding into the turn you can apply throttle slip the clutch and be on your way in the correct gear.

 

With an SMG you come into your turn braking then you pop the lever hoping to prepare the correct gear for your exit. Your downshift accompained by a jolt and tons of engine braking. If you are mid apex say goodbye to your rear end as it gets looser than Jenna Jameson in the mid 90's. If you even attempt to shift mid apex you can expect to see the ground you just covered in less than 80 milliseconds time as you spin out of control.

 

I am not arguing the effectiveness of a sequential tranny. But, I feel like the SMG is not a very good application of the technology. To my knowledge all performance sequntials used in the application of racing come with a user operable clutch that may or may not be used for shifting but is there if you need it. There is a reason for that.

[redline76]

I agree. Semi-auto trannies work well on the track, especially those who don't know how to double clutch and/or heel/toe.

 

For everyday driving, if you like finessing a clutch and prefer driver involvement in the experience, there's no comparision. I know that if I had a manumatic, I'd probably get bored of the button pushing and would end up driving the thing in auto the whole time, thus defeating the purpose of having a "manual" in the first place. The Legacy shifter and clutch are quite smooth and IMHO are a pleasure to interact with.

[Avishar]

Remember in all my years of driving (i've had a couple manuals) I never had done this either. It can happen to anyone regardless of how good you are at shifting. Though I do like the backhand technique described here and think it's helps eliminate this issue. I have learned a couple of habits good and bad here on this board. I was never aware of the fact you should keep your hand off the shifter while driving. This is something I always did and no longer do. I just wish I had read the little backhand tidbit before my mishap occered.

 

Happened to me a while ago... I was too embarrased to bring it up but I think it shows how well built subarus are and damn that engine was screaming... I figured out the reasoning in my case. Since I am used to driving a stick with an armrest I naturally find a place for my arm to rest. Since this one is too far back I tend to reach at an angle for the shifter. Another good reason for me to get the armrest extender...