boxerfan Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 I was hoping to get an LGT this year, but having a baby on the way changed my car plans. The wife just got a new Highlander and I have the Integra for another year or two. That's the bad news. The good news is that I'm hoping the LGT will be even more refined by the time I'm ready to purchase (more standard features and upgrades). I will also be able to test the LGT against the Mazdaspeed 6 which leads me to my question: What do you guys think of the MS-6? I just read a review of the 6 and was impressed. I've never been a huge Mazda fan, but I have to admit it's a hot car. I really like the fact that Mazda avoided the hood-scoop....the only thing I don't like about the LGT's appearance....and offer what is said to be a super slick six speed tranny. I hope that competition between the LGT and the MS-6 forces Subaru to give us a six speed tranny and a tighter suspension. I haven't driven the Mazdaspeed 6, but based on the review, it would appear to be a bit more agile than the LGT. I can't wait for the first comparison tests. Any way...just curious what people are thinking of Mazda's new ride. Don't get me wrong -- I'm still planning on the LGT but have to test the waters right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3.7L H6 Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Well Subaru's overall quality/reliability and AWD overshadow most other aspects. I think that if you test drove both you'd go with the Leggy, cars ought to be very similar when it comes to price/value and performance. Boxerfan, usually we post comparos here: http://www.legacygt.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxerfan Posted February 15, 2005 Author Share Posted February 15, 2005 Thanks 3.7L H6! I'll make sure to post comparos in the right section next time. I agree, I think Subaru's AWD is superior and, from what I can tell, Subaru's overall reliability is better than Mazda's (Miata's excluded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team23jordan Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 i was thinking the exact same thing LGT or MS-6 MS-6 has AWD but its not full-time AWD it's FWD most of time and when computer detects any wheel slipage it sends upto 50% of power to rear wheels plus LGT is faster and nicer and i dont like white door panels and dash that MS-6 has Perrin BIG maf intake Perrin Turbo Inlet HKS SSQV BOV Megan Racing header with UP (ceramic coated) HKS DP (WRX) DMH E-cutout Custom 3" catback UTEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smada Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Also, how tuneable is the mazda? With the WRX and STi, I'm guessing there is a lot more aftermarket support for the Legacy. Just something else to consider.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 MS-6 is a pig. A good 200 pounds heavier than the LGT. It is a FWD based car with "sends" power to the rear when needed. It's center of gravity is high. It doesn't have a Flat engine and for some unknown reason Mazda decided to place a TMIC on the car and doing so required a buldged hood. Both just raised the center of gravity. The MS6 looks dated already since the Mazda 6 has been out for a couple years. MS6 most likely won't be NEARLY as tunable. Direct injection is great for people keeping the car stock, but I think it was raise havoc if you try to chip, reflash, or tune the car. Since boost and compression ratio are already quite high. From preliminary reports, the MS6 is no faster, and actually a bit slower than the lighter and a bit underrated in power LGT. Mazda is claiming a 0-60 for the MS6 of 6.2 seconds. Subaru claimed a 0-60 of 5.8 seconds for the LGT, which has been beat. The MS6 is a limited production car, which means they'll probably only make a few thousand a year. And IMHO, the hood scoop on the Legacy IS what gives the car a bit of a mean look without it being boyracer STI like. One of the car mags stated that Mazda is starting a whole new car category with the MS6....they apparently weren't thinking of the Legacy GT which DID start a new category...AWD near luxury performance sedan for under $30K...Mazda is just following Subaru's lead. They should of followed Volkswagens lead though and made a AWD upscale hot-hatch for under $30K and made the Mazdaspeed 3 instead, since the R32 was too late to the party (with it's 6 year old chassis and body design) and limited number release. The MS3 would of been a hot car to have and priced around $26-27K, I would get one! Get the LGT, or in the next year or two, hopefully a 300+hp 6 speed manual Legacy STI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsyGT Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 I was recently at a Mazda dealer (The first one in the US!) helping a friend buy her car. They said they are only planning on 600 Mazdaspeed 6s the first year. My guess is they will be hard to get and expensive. I'm sure it's a nice car, and it will be more 'exclusive' being of limited production, but I doubt it will be better than the LGT! tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerdave Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Until road tests and actual "real world" drivers start test driving them, nobody really knows how the MS6 will compare to the LGT. The biggest strike -- for me -- against the MS6 is no wagon. But I'm sure either car will be more fun than an Accord or something. And there will be fans of both the MS6 and LGT who will whiz in the cheerios of the other. I'm happy with my choice of the LGT wagon... and no matter what the MS6 turns out to be (quicker, more loved by car mags, etc), it ain't gonna change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBY Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Thanks 3.7L H6! I'll make sure to post comparos in the right section next time. Moved it for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 MS6 is Haldex based... Everybody knows that FWD biased "Real Time" AWD is l33t!!!!!!!!!!11111111on3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Yay for Haldex! DM's AWD system of choice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Hey, at least it can actively send power front and rear while accelerating/decelerating/turning with a manual tranny, unlike every Subaru except for the STi. Has a much broader torque curve, will be much more responsive down low... And there has been at least one mention of 5.5 seconds to 60 by Mazda. Everybody who has driven it says the 6.2 is conservative. No Toothbrush Necessary, -B -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxerfan Posted February 15, 2005 Author Share Posted February 15, 2005 Beanboy, can you elaborate on your statement that the LGT's AWD system can not transfer power from front to rear during acceleration, deceleration, or cornering when mated to a manual tranny? Do you mean that an LGT 5MT won't automatically adjust power distribution for acceleration, deceleration, or cornering unless the AWD system detects the loss of traction and makes proper adjustments to compensate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 You got it boxerfan. -B -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtpeper Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Beanboy youre mistaken... The haldex system is the same... It needs to detect about 6 degrees of wheel slip before it will transfer power to the rear. So it too is wating for loss of traction to act... Just that the subby system can have more than 50% in back... Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Personally in a point and shoot match, the LGT would kill the Mazdaspeed6 and we havent even starting talking about the twisties yet. The LGT has the looks to match but then some might just call me biased. Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Hey, at least it can actively send power front and rear while accelerating/decelerating/turning with a manual tranny, unlike every Subaru except for the STi. Has a much broader torque curve, will be much more responsive down low... And there has been at least one mention of 5.5 seconds to 60 by Mazda. Everybody who has driven it says the 6.2 is conservative. No Toothbrush Necessary, -B Not really haldex is a part time AWD system because of the lack of a center diffrential. It can never shift power front and back, just back. It is basicly FWD with up to 50% RWD assist. It can only "shift" power back by coupling the rear driveline. This type of system is similar to a crossover system found in many cute utes. Like the rav 4 or honda CRV. That "actively" shift power to the back... The problem is there is NO power to the rear wheels to begin with unlike true full time AWD. It basicly steals power from the front transaxle to get the rear wheels spinning. The legacy's 4 wheels is receiving power all the time because it has a center diffrential not just a clutch pack coupling. Thus it is full time AWD. The power need not be shifted to the rear wheels because the power is already there. The MS6 system is nowhere NEAR the level of sophistication found in the STI or the 5eat. Those systems use an electromagneticly clutch LIMITED Planetary gear center diffrentials. It is NOT a simple haldex coupling. Power is already AT all wheels all the time without computer intervention. There is a constant torque bias ratio and the center electromagnetic clutch just adjusts the limited slip function depending on the condition. Im not sure if you understand what im trying to explain... but there is a HUGE diffrence between the two the only similarity is that they use clutches. Actively "shifts" power is a misnomer. Actively "steals 50 percent of the power" from the front wheels to spin the rear wheels which has ZERO inital torque load to begin with. Is a more accurate term. Contrary to popular belief I don't bash haldex because im a subbie elitist I bash it because it is haldex and I understand how the sytem works it is not real full time AWD nor does it act like full time AWD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsyGT Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 The Haldex system is still better than FWD or RWD for traction in poor conditions. I saw videos of Haldex Fords climbing some pretty steep dirt hills and was impressed. I'd rather be driving a car with any AWD system than FWD or RWD in the snow! It's just not better for a performance car. tom tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Im not saying that it dosent help... but if your gonna do AWD do it right... Steep dirt hills are nice... But it aint no Glamis sand dunes In California... http://www.newreason.com/shared/WRX_Glamis.mpeg Pretty good for somthing that "dosent actively shift power front and rear" err I mean just rear... Nuff said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsyGT Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Im not saying that it dosent help... but if your gonna do AWD do it right... Steep dirt hills are nice... But it aint no Glamis sand dunes In California... http://www.newreason.com/shared/WRX_Glamis.mpeg Pretty good for somthing that "dosent actively shift power front and rear" err I mean just rear... Nuff said... That's a great video! Is it on street tires? Must have been a pain cleaning out all that sand though. tom tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxerfan Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 Can somebody describe the difference between the AWD system on the LGT 5MT and the LGT 5EAT? Is there a significant advantage to either system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallispec Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Can somebody describe the difference between the AWD system on the LGT 5MT and the LGT 5EAT? Is there a significant advantage to either system? go here to look at the different types of AWD systems offered by subaru: http://subaru.com/allwheeldrive/ver2005/index.jsp (click on the 'whats the difference button until you reach the AWD systems page) the 5MT has the continuous AWD with a 50/50 split, viscous-coupling center diff the 5EAT has the VDT system with a 45/55 split - planetary type center diff the 5MT 2.5 GT models also feature a viscous-type limited-slip rear differential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legandrex Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 "We do not want to be classified as part of the pocket-rocket set. Our aim is for the more mature sports-sedan enthusiast" Mazda design team-Road and Track Magazine, page 50, February 2005. "The design team scorned a hood scoop-too boy racerish" Car and Driver, page 104, Feb. 2005. So Mazda thinks our hood scoops are too boy racerish....I think their fake exhaust outlets are a little boy racerish too. While I was looking at the Mazdaspeed 6 yesterday at the Chicago auto show I noticed that the two large exhaust outlets on the car are fake. There are much smaller exhaust outlets/pipes that fit inside of the large outlets. They are not even connected! Unfortunately I did not have my camera with me, but take my word for it. If that doesn't scream "boy racerish" I don't know what does. Can you say Pontiac? Mazda has alot of audacity to make those comments to the press and produce a car with psuedo big exhaust. At least our hood scoops are functional as are all cosmetic features of our cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunderkind Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 "We do not want to be classified as part of the pocket-rocket set. Our aim is for the more mature sports-sedan enthusiast" Mazda design team-Road and Track Magazine, page 50, February 2005. "The design team scorned a hood scoop-too boy racerish" Car and Driver, page 104, Feb. 2005. putting down a competitor's car is a trademark of insecurity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Side note... The thing about haldex is that it cannot be coupled for extended periods of time. Since it is a direct coupling with no differential it is only designed to be coupled if the front wheels slip. Having it coupled all the time while driving would lead to a VERY VERY short and stinky service life. It would be equivilant to riding your clutch all the way around town on the highway everytime you make a turn ect. If you want to use it for an extensive offroad adventure you better have a few haldex units to replace the ones that burn out. Under normal conditions the car will act EXACTLY like a FWD car with big rear swaybars until it detects slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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