Stage 2, 5EAT slipping/struggling to hold power

[fishbone]

Car:

2005 LGT 5EAT, 62K miles

OEM transmission fluid drained at 35K miles, 56K and then again at 60K

Cobb Stage 1 at 38K miles

Cobb Stage 2 at 56K miles

PDX Stage 2 at 59K miles

 

Mods:

At 56K miles:

transmission cooler

catless UP

gutted first cat in the DP

lightweight crank pulley

At 57K miles:

Perrin TMIC

At 60K miles:

drained, installed RalliteK blue street transmission mount

 

The car has never been tracked; never been dyoned; NEVER been torque braked even in the slightest; never been abused. She basically only occasionally sees a trip near redline in the first 2 or 3 gears, as traffic permits.

 

Noticed a bit of slipping yesterday evening for the first time. I was in 2nd gear and basically floored it from 25mph. Shift from 2nd to 3rd came at about 4k rpm but from the second the transmission went out of 2nd to neutral or to grab the gear, it slipped up about 400 rpms before it grabbed 3rd. So I thought "huh .. interesting".

 

This morning before I drove in to work I went around a bit to try to duplicate it.

The best way I can describe it is basically if the transmission shifts from 2nd to 3rd anywhere else outside north of 5500rpm or so, it struggles to grab the gear, if that makes sense. The clutchpacks are in good condition as far as I can tell because that period of slip feels more like riding the clutch, not so much as "dead space". The car stops accelerating as hard but it's still being pulled forward.

I have no idea what I am dynoing. All I can tell you is that I am pushing around 18.4PSI of peak boost which drops down to about 13PSI as it gets to redline.

Personally I think the transmission is fine, she shifts nice and crisp under partial throttle but under full load or 100% throttle, she slips up about 200-400 rpms if the shift points come before 5k rpm or so. Near redline however, the revs stop climbing and they come down with a feeling that I'd describe again as riding the clutch prior to grabbing the gear. So she doesn't seem to slip there at all.

 

I don't know if this behavior is normal and it basically just underlines the shortcoming of a stock 5EAT's ability to basically clamp down the power. The revs going up has me worried though. I will consider this as me being on borrowed time, the beginning of signs of trouble. Since winter is around the corner anyway I'm just going to take it easy for now until come spring, when I will get the IPT VB mod. I am even considering buying their clutchpack kit and having that done by my local trusty shop.

 

So there you have it. Just reporting my experience. Any input or questions are more than welcome.

For those of you that had the transmission start to slip, does this sound like what you've gone through? Was this the start of bigger problems? Was your issue more severe than this?

[fishbone]

One more thing I have noticed lately and I have not datalogged at all yet to see if it's a tune issue or something else or at least see what is going on. Might be completely unrelated. When leaving from a dead stop, I take my foot of the brake and touch the gas pedal, the car will almost right away stutter for a bit. If I mash the gas pedal and let off as to not take off like a bat outta hell, the stutter isn't there. It's also not consistent, sometimes it will do it, othertimes it won't.

 

Fun times!

[SeeeeeYa]

Your transmission may be fine. That "slipping" is what most transmissions are designed to do for smoothness of operation. It is also what wears them out.

 

The first time I had any inkling there was a transmission problem was when the engine revved as if it weren't in gear one night. I said, hmmmmm. Not long afterward I was going up a long hill on the interstate when suddenly the engine redlined. Fifth was gone. Fourth went the next day. I rode around crippled in first through third until my IPT upgrades.

 

With the IPT 5EAT the transmission is just as smooth, if not smoother, than stock was. But the shifts are done so quickly that data logging only captures one single transitional RPM point. There is no slam into gear like a shift kit modified THM of old, just immediate gear changes that used to take those wear-inducing few hundred RPM you describe.

[fishbone]

If slipping signs are strictly speaking when the engine revs as if it's not in gear, that's definitely not what I am experiencing and all this may just be a moot point. However, I can tell you that, at least prior to the RalliteK transmission mount, the revs never actually climbed up by any amount. They'd stop climbing and sure, they would kinda coast down to the engage point but that never worried me. This uprev is a new development but maybe it's always been there and it's been really made obvious by the transmission mount.

 

So again, that "riding the clutch" feeling from the point you feel the small jerk of the gear disengaging up until to the next one engaging I've come to realize it's normal. But the revs going up a few hundred rpm has me worried. I can definitely see this as what you had just described as wear-inducing.

Maybe the rev-ups are occuring because between the soft shift points the power increase pushes it and induces some slippage?

To that end, depending on each person's Stage 2 mod levels and driving habbits, I would personally move the IPT VB mod from optional to needed. Either that or stick to shifting near redline where the engine's output has tapered down quite a bit [at least judging by boost and what I've seen in dynos as far as the torque curve is concerned]. Anything less and from my experience you're really loading the 5EAT.

I don't consider my Stage 2 set-up anything above mid-range at the very most because I don't have a turboback exhaust and, more significantly, I am not pro-tuned.

[Habitual Line Stepper]

Fishbone,

 

What you are experiencing is what i experienced a few months ago, its called a flare. I had a subie tech drive my car around and said, its nothing to worry about for now, but we'll keep an eye on it. The funny thing is, my flare happens from the 4th to 5th shift and it only happens when i dont put the car under much load, putting around town. Once i give it the juice the tranny does what it does and shifts nice and fast. Keep an eye on it, you should be fine. But since your the kinda guy that wants piece of mind, a VB upgrade would be a good way to put you at ease.

[squishyface]

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+1 IPT

[fishbone]

I talked to a couple friends of mine that are transmission nerds. Both said basically that yes, it's more or less normal but to keep an eye on it. What apparently causes the flare up is the dreaded time spent between gears, which is governed by .. you guessed it, the valve body. For those that don't have it or those that are still skeptical, although I don't have it myself yet, do yourselves a favor and just get it. I really, really don't see how the transmission can keep this up for very long. I am going to do an ATF analysis to see what's going on but based on what I'm feeling there is definitely more wear and tear put on it.

Oh and SeeeeeYa [did I get all the e's in there?], HLS and squishyface, you probably just about wanna see me banned at this point for all this tranny freak-out talk so I have to really apologize, again. I am just reporting what I am seeing and being that I'm no expert I wanted to get some input. I will keep you all updated if anything else crops up.

And to be completely honest, all the transmission mount has done so far for me is transfer NVH in the cabin. The shift pattern hasn't changed, the transmission feels more connected to the rest of the car and in turn you're really feeling what it's doing. But that's about it. The primary reason I did it was because there were no drawbacks to it other than NVH and would potentially be a healthy thing for the AT rather than having it slop around, some have reported perceptively firmer shifts. Ooh, firmer shifts, I thought! Nah, none of the sort. You just feel what the thing is doing more than before. It's perception.

[Habitual Line Stepper]

Hey man no problem, everybody gets freaked out from time to time. Just keep an eye on it, and push the IPT VB on your shortlist of mods.

[wavewagon]

Hey fishbone, this is what I experienced when I went from stage-2 to 20g. The up-rev was more severe than what you experienced but similar. I immediately sent the VB to IPT. I have since put approx 15K miles on the car and no issues.

 

It will be interesting to see if more 5EAT Stage-2 cars with higher miles start to show this issue.

 

Personally I wouldn't wait to long since a trans rebuild is very pricey as you know, but I am kind of conservative that way. I also think the VB mod is somewhat of a performance mod. For me the shifting feels a bit quicker and firmer and no slipping.

[AKLGT]

Hey fishbone, this is what I experienced when I went from stage-2 to 20g. The up-rev was more severe than what you experienced but similar. I immediately sent the VB to IPT. I have since put approx 15K miles on the car and no issues.

 

It will be interesting to see if more 5EAT Stage-2 cars with higher miles start to show this issue.

 

Personally I wouldn't wait to long since a trans rebuild is very pricey as you know, but I am kind of conservative that way. I also think the VB mod is somewhat of a performance mod. For me the shifting feels a bit quicker and firmer and no slipping.

+1 here as well.

 

Stg 2 to Stg 3 and lots of slipping. I thought it was turbo lag at first until my tech showed me the difference between the slow shifts and the over revs. once I realized what was happening, the help of a few members here steered me to the IPT VB upgrade, or really, any VB upgrade. IPT just seems to have gotten it down now, so not as many issues with chatter.

[Habitual Line Stepper]

Just did some math.

 

So right now i'm at 232awhp

I assume that at stock i would have dyno'd ~180awhp.

 

So doing the math 232-180=52awhp gained. 52/180=.28 or 28%.

 

So guys out there who are pushing more than i am on an auto, and thats alot of people, your doing like what 50%-90% on average more than stock. Of those people pushing greater than or equal to me in power, how many of you actually had serious tranny problems? Also, alot of you dont have rebuilt trannys, so who is to say that the 5eat is glass? 28% more power than a tranny was designed to handle. Not bad imo.

[AKLGT]

yes, but in comparison to what the MT versions can handle, almost twice the power, it is still "made of glass." But you are right, if you look at how much more power you can push on the auto to stock, it's still not bad, just not as good as the MT versions.

[Habitual Line Stepper]

yes, but in comparison to what the MT versions can handle, almost twice the power, it is still "made of glass." But you are right, if you look at how much more power you can push on the auto to stock, it's still not bad, just not as good as the MT versions.

 

 

Its hard to break such a rudimentary thing as a manual gearbox.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rhe]

MY06 LGT (stage 2) 5EAT dyno'd at 255Hp and 259 ft/lb torque, +42% and so far no tranny issues after ~42,000km (~26,000miles).

 

Is there a reliable shop in southern Ontario if I want to do the VB upgrade?

[fishbone]

Speaking of trans rebuilds, I asked my local shop's mechanic who is a tranny guy how much ballpark we're looking at if we were to replace the clutches and steel belts, since IPT sells the kit online separately. I'm looking at around 2500-3000, which is cheaper than the usual 4-5K that I keep hearing around here. Not that I'm taking my chances, but at least it's good to know I have someone to go to.

When I talked to the guy he said "I personally wouldn't worry about it, I have tripled the power output on my Mustang and the automatic is stock and it's fine so far". For some reason I didn't find that very reassuring.

 

So wavewagon, how much more severe were your uprevs?

AKLGT, yours was doing something similar then?

[scoobydoobie]

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I'm at stage 1 and get slow shifts in "D" when gunning it sometimes. It will seem to hold the gear at like 4-5K rpms for a bit rather than crisply shifting to the next gear. Does this soundlike slippage?

 

I also get a "thump" from the rear of the car sometimes in manual mode when accelerating fairly hard from 2 to 3, especially if I let off the gas and then shift it to third. Sometimes also smell a rotten-egg kind of smell (tranny fluid?) when driving semi-aggressively. I may be paranoid about some of these issues, but it definitely feels a bit off sometimes, I just hope my tranny isn't (or soon to be) going bad.

[AKLGT]

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I'm at stage 1 and get slow shifts in "D" when gunning it sometimes. It will seem to hold the gear at like 4-5K rpms for a bit rather than crisply shifting to the next gear. Does this soundlike slippage?

 

I also get a "thump" from the rear of the car sometimes in manual mode when accelerating fairly hard from 2 to 3, especially if I let off the gas and then shift it to third. Sometimes also smell a rotten-egg kind of smell (tranny fluid?) when driving semi-aggressively. I may be paranoid about some of these issues, but it definitely feels a bit off sometimes, I just hope my tranny isn't (or soon to be) going bad.

no, that's called the 5EAT. it was designed to be a sport sedan not a sports car, therefore the auto is quite sluggish in shifting from gear to gear. as we described earlier, when you the car should be shifting to the next gear, the revs go up and nothing happens, that is slip. what you are describing is just one of the characteristics of the 5EAT.

 

as for rotten egg smell, do you have a catless downpipe? if so, that's what you're smelling.

[Guntrain]

Very informational thread.. pardon me asking a dumb question, so whats the difference between a flare and slipping? and how would i'd be able to tell the difference between the 2 when driving? Im confused as i dont know how the "riding the clutch feeling" as fishbone posted feels like since i never drove a MT

 

I have a 5EAT at stage 1, and twice on WOT as i was leaving the toll booths in sports mode from 2nd to 3rd the car seem to sudennly slow down but still revving hard, felt as if i had it in neutral for a few secs then it popped into gear.. Is this flare, slipping, and should i be getting this at stage 1??? This happened to me 1 day after going stage 1, hasn't happened again since, but then again i dont beat on my car often.

[frank_ster]

hey guys .. these longs drawn out shifts .. is what kills the trannys .. not boost launching .. there is a set life span of hours * load the clutches will last .. the more load and long shifts will eventually distroy the tranny. its the stupid comfort shit that needs to go away! how they shift stock .. any big power will jsut take the life away from the tranny its simple as that .. ie a stock thm 350 from a camaro .. stock there ok .. put 350 hp to them eeh .. they won't last very long .. maybe a year .. that same tranny wit ha shift kit .. withc i have in my 600 hp camaro lasted 3 years .. its just the aluminum bell housing kept breaking .. thats it ..

 

5 grand to rebuild the tranny is CRAZY its nuts to think .. its 700$ for the clutches .. change the clutches that dieed and put it back together thats it. why refurish everything ? if the clutch dies in a 5 speed manual tranny do you rebuild the whole tranny ?

 

those places doent even change everything ... they change what is broken / worn out .. check a few other things and throw it back together in 1 afternoon.

 

I am very happy about how easy my subie is to work on its very little time to rip that sucker apart.

[AKLGT]

hey guys .. these longs drawn out shifts .. is what kills the trannys .. not boost launching .. there is a set life span of hours * load the clutches will last .. the more load and long shifts will eventually distroy the tranny. its the stupid comfort shit that needs to go away! how they shift stock .. any big power will jsut take the life away from the tranny its simple as that .. ie a stock thm 350 from a camaro .. stock there ok .. put 350 hp to them eeh .. they won't last very long .. maybe a year .. that same tranny wit ha shift kit .. withc i have in my 600 hp camaro lasted 3 years .. its just the aluminum bell housing kept breaking .. thats it ..

 

5 grand to rebuild the tranny is CRAZY its nuts to think .. its 700$ for the clutches .. change the clutches that dieed and put it back together thats it. why refurish everything ? if the clutch dies in a 5 speed manual tranny do you rebuild the whole tranny ?

 

those places doent even change everything ... they change what is broken / worn out .. check a few other things and throw it back together in 1 afternoon.

 

I am very happy about how easy my subie is to work on its very little time to rip that sucker apart.

+1

 

that's exactly it. it's the lame OEM shifts that try to make it smooth that kills the transmission. anytime you add more power (especially low end torque) it will really amplify the lame slow shifts and eventually wear out your tranny.

[scoobydoobie]

no, that's called the 5EAT. it was designed to be a sport sedan not a sports car, therefore the auto is quite sluggish in shifting from gear to gear. as we described earlier, when you the car should be shifting to the next gear, the revs go up and nothing happens, that is slip. what you are describing is just one of the characteristics of the 5EAT.

 

as for rotten egg smell, do you have a catless downpipe? if so, that's what you're smelling.

 

I know its an auto sports sedan, it just seems like the shifts are getting more sluggish than when I got the car 8K miles ago. So if its slipping the revs will stall like I described, but then it won't shift to the next gear? I also have a stock DP, only power related mods are AP Stage1 93 and an AVO panel filter. The smell only happens after getting on it, which makes me think it might be tranny fluid burning or something

 

that's exactly it. it's the lame OEM shifts that try to make it smooth that kills the transmission. anytime you add more power (especially low end torque) it will really amplify the lame slow shifts and eventually wear out your tranny.

 

I am planning to go stage 2 in the spring time (i.e. more low end torque), would you reccommend getting a tranny cooler? Will this increase the life of the tranny and/or help shifts feel less sloppy? Lastly, which tranny cooler do you guys reccommend? Thanks in advance

[Habitual Line Stepper]

For stage 2 a tranny cooler is a must, i'd HIGHLY recommend an IPT VB. Those long shifts are what kill the tranny do doubt, my shift are fast and abrupt. Altho this kills my luxury ride a bit, i dont care too much about that tho. If you have a 5eat and plan on going for more power than stock, mod responsibly. What i mean by this is a simple rule of thumb, for each power mod stage you add, you should add a tranny mod.

 

For example:

 

Stage 0-1: Tranny Cooler

Stage 2: IPT VB

Stage 3: Depending on what your power goals are, a tranny rebuild with IPT internals is a good idea. If your sticking to something a mild like an STI swap with a vf39, vf43, or a vf 52, then a VB should be enough.

 

Now this is just how i think about it, as you all know alot of stock 5eats are in stage 2 right now and doing fine. So these rules of thumb are just precautionary.

[iahtnoob]

can this problem be contributed to the lightweight crank pulley????

[fishbone]

I don't see how or why it would be tied into that. I have a lwcp myself though. Being automatic, you're not really dealing with revs falling quicker than with the stock lwcp between shifts.

[25gtrbo]

suscribed