2008 ADAC Winter Tire Tests

[outahere]

Here is a link to the latest test of 15" T rated winter tires, from ADAC (German Auto Club??):

 

http://www.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/Winterreifen/195_65_R15T/default.asp?ComponentID=229327&SourcePageID=8979#

 

Click on ".........Tabelle" and you will get a summary chart of the results.

 

Dunlop and Michelin were dethroned from their top two spots in the 2007 test, into 4th and 5th place. Blizzak LM25 is a midpack performer, as is the Nokian WR G2.

[DrCloud]

What? No Hakkapeliittas? Hmmph. HPH

[Guest]

I don't quite get it... WR G2 scored higher than Dunlop 3D in nearly every catageory, but are ranked much lower overall. I guess they use some weighted scale, but from a cursory look I'd pick WRs over 3Ds, especially that there are no worries about running WRs in warm weather (e.g. trip to Florida from New England in the middle of the winter).

[outahere]

............ I guess they use some weighted scale, ...........

 

Yep, wet traction (30%) and snow traction (20%) account for 50% of the final score.

[outahere]

Here is another 2008 test, this time in French, from Quebec (consumer agency?). The ratings start on page 16 of this pdf document. They have evaluated standard winters, performance winters, and SUV winters. I don't read French, so I do not know the basis of these evaluations. Anyone here read French?

 

http://www.3duy.com/misc/Pneusdhiver.pdf

[TSiWRX]

I took French all through college - but sadly, having not used it since then, well..... you can guess.

 

I can't even begin to translate the in-depth article, outahere.

 

But from having just glanced at the two, it seems that the testing parameters might not have been quite the same?

[outahere]

From the Quebec ratings:

 

Five stars: Blizzak WS60, Toyo Observe GO-2 Plus, Yokohama Ice Guard IG20

 

One star: Nokian WR-G2, Cooper Weather Master S/T 2

[TSiWRX]

^ Just a quick note to supplement what you'd abstracted

 

The WS60, G0-2 Plus, and IG20 were their outstanding ("Best" - "5-Star") recommendations for "Touring Tires."

 

The Toyo Observe Garit KX was their outstanding ("Best" - "5-Star") recommendation for the "Performance Vehicle Tires" category.

 

There also exists a third category, reserved for SUVs.

 

----

 

I'd also like to better understand their overall criteria, as, in simply reading through their summary comments, it seems more a subjective "wrap-up," and not as quantitative as how ADAC broke things down.

 

I should say here it's not that the French-language testing wasn't quantitative - heck, I can't even read much French anymore! Rather, what I meant to say was that the testing wasn't broken down, for the reader, in the same numerical fashion as the German, which made it easier to "translate," for lack of better wording.

 

It also seems that the Quebec testing also had differences based on tire size, with the touring, performance, and SUV categories utilizing different tire size "standards" for both pricing as well as performance cross-comparison.

 

I almost wonder if the French test, with its closer choice of tire to those typically purchased for our fitment, might not be the better test to get advice from, despite its seeming non-quantitative nature, as the "Performance Vehicles" category utilizes a 225/45/17 tire as the construct...... ?

 

The more I look at the tests, the more I wonder if maybe the tire sizing and testing/judging standards of the German set may be more foul-weather centered, while the latter takes a more "overall" approach?

 

I'm finding it somewhat hard to reconcile, at times, differing data from the two tests (i.e. look at the LM-25).

 

---

 

On a lighter, but unfortunately un-connected note:

 

The Google translator, French-to-English, returns with the English word "steakhouse," when what its native speaker meant to address was the grill(e) of the vehicle.

 

I really wish I paid better attention, in school!

[outahere]

Based on the 3 tires they (Quebec testers) gave a 5 star rating to, it looks like the "touring winters" were ranked primarily on ice traction first, and snow traction secondly.

 

The German ADAC testing weights their final scores this way:

30% wet traction

20% snow traction

15% dry traction

10% ice traction

5% comfort

10% tread life

10% fuel consumption

[outahere]

..........The more I look at the tests, the more I wonder if maybe the tire sizing and testing/judging standards of the German set may be more foul-weather centered, while the latter takes a more "overall" approach?

 

I'm finding it somewhat hard to reconcile, at times, differing data from the two tests (i.e. look at the LM-25).............

 

Yes, I too wonder about the effects of tire size, and speed rating, on the final test rankings. My conjecture is that it does make a difference.

 

And then there was the revelation a few years ago that some European manufacturers were submitting special, one-off tires (and not regular production tires) to the Scandinavian magazines for the annual winter tire tests. This questionable practice took place because a high test score always resulted in much higher tire sales.

[outahere]

Article from AFTONBLADET, Swedish newspaper – Published on the 25th December 2004 – Reporter Robert Colin

 

Continental sends better Tyres to Tests than to motorists.

The German tyre manufacturer CONTINENTAL is not afraid to use any means necessary to win press tyre tests. Aftonbladet can prove that this company has won tests with doctored tyres.

 

Winning a tyre test results in increased sales.

Here in Sweden the winner of a tyre test can increase its sales by tens of thousand of Crowns, and in large countries such as France or Germany, hundreds of millions.

If the press were to buy tyres from a dealer this problem would not exist. However, when we test winter tyres in February or March to publish the results in autumn, the new products aren’t yet on the market. To include these new products in the tests, the press has to trust the manufacturers to deliver the correct tyres.

 

How did they win?

This year the usually secret tyre test department in Hanover has been particularly creative.

They have produced tyres adapted to each magazine.

The winner of Aftonbladet test 2004, amongst others, was Continental Viking Contact 3.

Viking also won in Auto Motor och Sport from Norway, which puts more importance on smooth surfaces. The Norwegians received a tyre with extra rigid sidewalls.

We at AftonBladet received tyres with an extra soft rubber compound, which gives better grip on ice, the characteristic that we stress the most.

The tyre we used for the test also had sidewalls reinforced to increase stability on smooth surfaces.

 

We have now purchased the consumer version of the tested tyre, and carried out new tests. It is apparent that there is a great difference between the tyres. The tyres we purchased had lower grip on ice and a lower stability on smooth surfaces. It is definitely not a test winner.

 

Some sources from within Continental at Hanover, questioned by Aftonbladet admit that the doctoring is an important element in their activity.

“We know well of course the priorities of the different magazines and we make tyres accordingly” … says an employee.

 

“We must win”

“The competition is even more intense in Central Europe, and the financial turnover is so important that we simply must win the tests. That’s why we always deliver special tyres.” says another employee.

 

Roland Martensson, responsible for NordicWinter tyre development at Continetal, admits that there is doctoring, mainly with the competitors.

 

“Others are cheating”

“I know that the other tyre manufacturers are cheating, but I have never heard that we have a department specialised to this purpose”.

“If there are differences between tyres that we deliver to you, and those in the market, this is due more to production variations or productions errors” said Roland Martensson.

 

The proof illustrated: How Continental cheats. The rigid bead filler of the test tyre is 3,5mm longer and finishes closer to the tread. This results in a tyre with better lateral stability.

The test tyre has greater thickness and is more stable

The normal tyre – unstable and narrower"

 

 

 

Second article from the same AFTONBLADET, Swedish newspaper –

Published the 25th December 2004 – Reporter Robert Collin.

 

"SEVERAL TYRE MANUFACTURERS ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO CHEATING

 

The easiest doctoring to carry out is improving tyre grip at the expense of wear resistance - this being difficult to test.

A winter tyre’s characteristics are a compromise where wet, dry, snow and ice grip should be balanced in a correct manner. Also comfort and wear resistance should be satisfactory. Stability on asphalt is in direct opposition to grip in winter conditions, and grip in general is in direct opposition to wear resistance.

 

Is it only Continental who cheats?

It is probable that other tyre manufacturers also cheat. One tyre manufacturer who seems to be above cheating is the French multi-giant Michelin. This could be one reason why Michelin rarely wins press tests.

Robert Collins started testing tyres with the Finnish Magazine Tekniikan Maailma in 1984. Their tests which are the most advanced of the Nordic tests also have the widest circulation. They are published in Aftonbladet and in the Swedish Auto Motor och Sport, as well as in Finland, Norway, Russia and Estonia."

[outahere]

Hey TSi+WRX, how's your Finnish?

 

http://www.tekniikanmaailma.fi/autot/renkaat/tm-vertailu-talvirenkaat-2008

[TSiWRX]

^ Had a girlfriend in high-school who was Finnish.

 

No, I never got to finish.

 

Yeah, you brought up a sore point.

 

Oh man, I totally forgot about that Scandinavian thing!

 

----

 

Based on the 3 tires they (Quebec testers) gave a 5 star rating to, it looks like the "touring winters" were ranked primarily on ice traction first, and snow traction secondly.

 

The German ADAC testing weights their final scores this way:

30% wet traction

20% snow traction

15% dry traction

10% ice traction

5% comfort

10% tread life

10% fuel consumption

 

OK, we can't possibly be the only two people on .com that are interested in these results!

[krzyss]

Well, if you find tests in Polish I can help

 

;-)

 

Krzys

 

PS I also think that Quebecois (sp?) test put more emphasis on ice and maybe snow traction than on dry cold or wet pavement. But it is a guess only.

[change_agent]

The Quebec Testers got the two Michelin Primacy Pilot and Alpine Pilot mixed up...the New model is the Alpine Pilot....the Primacy Pilot is last years Alpine Pilot. Sadly I bought the new Alpine Pilots and wish now that I got the Dunlop D3's.

 

Here the bias is toward heavy snow first and then normal snow and ice conditions.

 

The reason they are doing the tests is because we here in Quebec have a new snow tire law...all cars must have them between December 15th and March 15th ...and must carry the snow emblem.

[change_agent]

The Quebec testers highlighted in the Performance section the tires that my Service Manager suggested as the best...the Toyo's....the only thing with the Toyo's is that they are H rated and not V rated.

[BigInALegacy]

H vs V= ?

 

 

<~~ looking towars upcoming brutal Winter in New England too

[outahere]

The Quebec Testers got the two Michelin Primacy Pilot and Alpine Pilot mixed up...the New model is the Alpine Pilot....the Primacy Pilot is last years Alpine Pilot.

 

LOL, you have really got things mixed up here. No such thing as a Primacy Pilot.

 

There is;

 

Primacy Alpin PA3 (H speed rated 15,16,17")

Pilot Alpin PA3 (V speed rated 16,17,18")

 

http://www.michelinman.com:80/tires/winter/primacy-alpin-pa3/#sizes-and-specifications

 

http://www.michelinman.com:80/tires/winter/pilot-alpin-pa3/#sizes-and-specifications

[TSiWRX]

outahere, you're on the WS60 now, correct?

 

I searched a few past threads, and your posts seem to come up with the WS60.

 

Question - how well do these do on the highway?

 

I think I'm either going with the WS60 or the 3D for the wifey this winter, and I just can't quite make up my mind. I know that the WS60 will do better on ice and in deeper snow, but she also sees more highway (cleared) than I do - thus my current question.

 

She's not an aggressive driver at all, so there would not be tremendous stresses that are expected for these tires. For example, the TireRack "dry cornering" rating is all but nullified by the way she drives.

 

Thanks, in advance, for any advice you can give.

[outahere]

I'm still on the LM25. But for my next winter tires, I want improved ice traction, even though it means sacrificing some responsiveness and tread wear. So if I were buying today, I would be looking at the WS60 and the new XIce Xi2.

 

For your wife, the 3D and Primacy Alpin PA3 would be good choices. But then again, the WS60 is supposed to have better dry and wet road performance that its predecessors, and it gives an extra margin of safety when you need it most, on snow and ice! The XIce Xi2 will supposedly last longer than the WS60, and be more responsive on dry and wet roads, but have slightly less ice traction. Decisions, decisions.

 

The XIce Xi2 came in 2nd place on this test:

http://www.naf.no/Forbrukertester/Dekk/Dekktester/Vinterdekktest-2008/Piggfrie-dekk/

http://www.naf.no/Forbrukertester/Dekk/Dekktester/Vinterdekktest-2008/Poengoversikt-vinterdekktest-2008/

 

Here are some subjective tests of the WS60:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/tires/blizzak_ws60.htm

http://www.snowtire.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=377

[TSiWRX]

I'm still on the LM25. But for my next winter tires, I want improved ice traction, even though it means sacrificing some responsiveness and tread wear. So if I were buying today, I would be looking at the WS60 and the new XIce Xi2.

 

You know, if I read slower, I'd be more accurate - I apologize, indeed, in one of the threads that I searched up earlier today, you did say that you were looking at the WS60s as your *next* purchase. My apologies!

 

For your wife, the 3D and Primacy Alpin PA3 would be good choices. But then again, the WS60 is supposed to have better dry and wet road performance that its predecessors, and it gives an extra margin of safety when you need it most, on snow and ice! The XIce Xi2 will supposedly last longer than the WS60, and be more responsive on dry and wet roads, but have slightly less ice traction. Decisions, decisions.

 

The XIce Xi2 came in 2nd place on this test:

http://www.naf.no/Forbrukertester/Dekk/Dekktester/Vinterdekktest-2008/Piggfrie-dekk/

http://www.naf.no/Forbrukertester/Dekk/Dekktester/Vinterdekktest-2008/Poengoversikt-vinterdekktest-2008/

 

Here are some subjective tests of the WS60:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/tires/blizzak_ws60.htm

http://www.snowtire.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=377

 

Yeah, decisions, decisions. :spin:

 

Thanks for your advice, and those articles, too, which will make good pre-bed reading tonight.

[TSiWRX]

Hey, outahere, here's a laugh for ya.

 

Knowing that the wifey loves to base purchases on totally subjective measures, I sought her advice in picking out the tires......

 

I asked her, based on these three contenders' names, what she'd like:

 

 

Blizzak -

Her reply: "Why would I want a tire that sounds like it was made by Spishak!?"

( Yes, we were Mad TV fans. )

 

To which I then changed tactics, and asked her about her reaction to.....

 

Bridgestone -

Her reply: "Bridgestone? That doesn't sound Japanese? Did they steal Firestone's name?"

 

Michelin -

Her reply: "That's the one with the puffy man, right?"

Me: "Yes, that's the Michelin man, world famous."

Her follow-up: "Why, if you're made of tires, would you need tires? couldn't you just roll everywhere?"

 

3D -

Her reply: "Duh! Like I'd ever wanna buy 2D tires!"

 

I still don't understand how this gal made it through medical school.......

 

[outahere]

Ask her what she thinks of the Hankook Ice Bear, or the Wanli Winter, or the Gislaved, or the Hakkapeliitta.

[kenzo]

(Might have mentioned this in a different thread...)

I bought a set of Blizzak WS-60 215/45R17 and cheap winter wheels before last winter. They are very good on snow and ice; also much less squirrely on dry pavement than other winter tires I've had.

[TSiWRX]

^ Thanks for that, kenzo - and as a follow-up, what did you have before?

 

---

 

outahere, now that makes for interesting pillow talk, doesn't it?