traskw Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 400/200 are not at all high temps and perfectly fine to just sit there I assumed the temps had been higher than the 412-434 temps with the thermometer. What temps have you recorded with your brakes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 It seems everyone has an opinion here, I like facts and testing of the actual product. How high of temps do you expect? This was 21 miles over and around the mountain as hard on the brakes as I could. Boots are fine; temps under operation had to be over 500, maybe higher. I've warped, yes warped, damage done quickly not over time (not due to deposits), the stock rotors doing less than I put these through yesterday. I'm sold. These provide my daily driver with exactly what I was looking for. http://home.dejazzd.com/traskw/images/brakepiston.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 About 2000 miles on them so far. Some dust with these, but not as bad as some of the aftermarket "stock" pads I've seen, like the hawks. Speaking of aftermarket pads, a co-worker was complaining about brake noise thinking he was due for pads on his Baja Turbo. We found that one side of the Hawk pad was sticking in the guide (The inside pad not the stationary exterior pad) causing the guide itself to flex instead of sliding like it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 High temps are 800+ Anything over 600 and you probably don't wanna let the brakes sit. Street pads on a road course got me up to 800-900 degrees. Track pads brought me over 1000+ My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 High temps are 800+ Anything over 600 and you probably don't wanna let the brakes sit. Street pads on a road course got me up to 800-900 degrees. Track pads brought me over 1000+ I don't know how hot they got when pushed, just that they were still that high when I got home, finally found the temp gauge and got back out to test them. Most of the pads (I'm not talking about a 1600F race pad here) on the market would be at their fail limit at the temperatures you've stated, nevermind dust boots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 my street pads didn't even glaze at those temps. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 my street pads didn't even glaze at those temps. How did you measure those temps? Most street pads have a max of 800-1000. Speaking of pads.... Hawk has 9 compounds available for this application as well as those from Wilwood. We can also get poly Q ceramic pads for those street users looking for the lowest dust solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 IR thermometer with the correct Emissivity setting My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 IR thermometer with the correct Emissivity setting Same device. I doubt I'd ever be able to achieve those temps in a street environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 wuss My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 wuss lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamal Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 In your opinion, and your entitled to it. I'll stand by my statement that it's a better match than stock, I have this set-up ON my LGT; no speculation there. Subaru has used smaller 10.6" rotors on the heavier Baja Turbo and Standard Outback. no, they have not used those rotors on the baja, ever. They were on the outback from 96-01, though. After that, the brakes were the 11.6" wrx parts with bigger 11.4" solid rear discs. Back to the wilwoods. How much do the rotors and calipers weight? what are the piston sizes and effective diameter? What is one evening of relatively hard driving supposed to prove? That going down a steep hill didin't melt your piston seals? Do you think that the stock brakes with the same pad compound would have had problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 ^^ not at 400 degrees they wouldn't My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted October 3, 2008 Author Share Posted October 3, 2008 no, they have not used those rotors on the baja, ever. They were on the outback from 96-01, though. After that, the brakes were the 11.6" wrx parts with bigger 11.4" solid rear discs. Back to the wilwoods. How much do the rotors and calipers weight? what are the piston sizes and effective diameter? What is one evening of relatively hard driving supposed to prove? That going down a steep hill didin't melt your piston seals? Do you think that the stock brakes with the same pad compound would have had problems? 10.6 was a typo, 11.6 is correct. My point was that the average owner would never get these hot enough to melt the seals. I did more than drive down a steep hill, are you familar with the Poconos? Many bends. I'll get you the specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Are you familiar with the Rockies? Bigger bends My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 Are you familiar with the Rockies? Bigger bends I prefer tighter corners to bigger bends, though I'm sure there are challenging drives to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudeondacouch Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 I prefer tighter corners to bigger bends We still talking about cars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 we still talking about cars? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Post I found about dust boots on pistons: After speaking to a major performance brake supplier, the following comments were offered when talking about dust boots: "This is a rubber concertina style boot which snaps into the caliper around the piston or pistons and onto the piston protrusion itself. This “bellows” configuration allows the piston to move in and out of the caliper without contamination from the environment. Road grime, dirt and especially moisture can corrode production type caliper pistons leading to premature failure of the piston seals rendering the caliper inoperable. Vehicle manufacturers typically design their products around a minimum criteria list which almost never includes special materials for components such as caliper pistons. Many production style caliper pistons are therefore aluminum or other easily corrodible metal for obvious reasons, not least of which is cost. It is less expensive by far to make aluminum pistons and rubber boots than to make stainless steel pistons for example. A huge percentage of production car calipers HAVE to have dust boots or they may not last to the end of the warranty. Aside from some of the obvious weight and capacity drawbacks of production calipers, dust boots can be a hazard to high performance drivers. Brake components are designed to convert all that motion to heat energy and then dissipate that heat. The heating and cooling cycle occurs with higher frequency under spirited, or race driving conditions where it is not unusual to develop enough heat to make rotors glow red hot. Radiant and conducted heat developed under hard driving conditions can easily heat the calipers to the point where the brake fluid boils and the boots burn. Dust boots are not installed on true racing calipers. The best solution for safe and reliable high performance calipers is to eliminate the rubber boots, build pistons from good quality, non-corroding stainless steel and make sure the caliper bores are anodized. We have been supplying such calipers for high performance street and race use for nearly 20 years without complaint. Our experience has been that companies who do build aftermarket calipers with dust boots make an issue of this fact to justify the exorbitant cost of their products. If we examine the dynamics of caliper function we see that the pistons actually, stay pretty well where they are and the brake dust coats that part which protrudes from the caliper body. A typical brake application cycle sees about 0.20 mm (1/5 mm) of travel per piston. There is about 3 or 4mm of piston bore outboard of the hydraulic "O" ring before the piston sees the outside atmosphere. In that area the clearance between the piston and bore is around 0.075mm. It takes a pretty small dust particle to travel all the way to the hydraulic O-ring and when it gets there it's typically too small to create any real havoc. So, you get dirt building up on the exposed part of the pistons and that's about it. The problem develops when it's time to change pads and your production oriented brake technician simply presses the pistons back in with a clamp and shoves all that dirt into the cylinder past the seal. The "trick" is to scrub the piston protrusion with a stiff tooth brush and soapy solution, then blow dry BEFORE you shove them back into the caliper... The down side is that it takes and extra 30 minutes (on a bad day) to change pads which you may have to do every 50,000 km or so on a street driven vehicle. Amortized over a year or two that's not a big chunk of your life or your paycheck." -D. Armstrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted December 24, 2008 Author Share Posted December 24, 2008 Post I found about dust boots on pistons: After speaking to a major performance brake supplier, the following comments were offered when talking about dust boots: "This is a rubber concertina style boot which snaps into the caliper around the piston or pistons and onto the piston protrusion itself. This “bellows” configuration allows the piston to move in and out of the caliper without contamination from the environment. Road grime, dirt and especially moisture can corrode production type caliper pistons leading to premature failure of the piston seals rendering the caliper inoperable. Vehicle manufacturers typically design their products around a minimum criteria list which almost never includes special materials for components such as caliper pistons. Many production style caliper pistons are therefore aluminum or other easily corrodible metal for obvious reasons, not least of which is cost. It is less expensive by far to make aluminum pistons and rubber boots than to make stainless steel pistons for example. A huge percentage of production car calipers HAVE to have dust boots or they may not last to the end of the warranty. Aside from some of the obvious weight and capacity drawbacks of production calipers, dust boots can be a hazard to high performance drivers. Brake components are designed to convert all that motion to heat energy and then dissipate that heat. The heating and cooling cycle occurs with higher frequency under spirited, or race driving conditions where it is not unusual to develop enough heat to make rotors glow red hot. Radiant and conducted heat developed under hard driving conditions can easily heat the calipers to the point where the brake fluid boils and the boots burn. Dust boots are not installed on true racing calipers. The best solution for safe and reliable high performance calipers is to eliminate the rubber boots, build pistons from good quality, non-corroding stainless steel and make sure the caliper bores are anodized. We have been supplying such calipers for high performance street and race use for nearly 20 years without complaint. Our experience has been that companies who do build aftermarket calipers with dust boots make an issue of this fact to justify the exorbitant cost of their products. If we examine the dynamics of caliper function we see that the pistons actually, stay pretty well where they are and the brake dust coats that part which protrudes from the caliper body. A typical brake application cycle sees about 0.20 mm (1/5 mm) of travel per piston. There is about 3 or 4mm of piston bore outboard of the hydraulic "O" ring before the piston sees the outside atmosphere. In that area the clearance between the piston and bore is around 0.075mm. It takes a pretty small dust particle to travel all the way to the hydraulic O-ring and when it gets there it's typically too small to create any real havoc. So, you get dirt building up on the exposed part of the pistons and that's about it. The problem develops when it's time to change pads and your production oriented brake technician simply presses the pistons back in with a clamp and shoves all that dirt into the cylinder past the seal. The "trick" is to scrub the piston protrusion with a stiff tooth brush and soapy solution, then blow dry BEFORE you shove them back into the caliper... The down side is that it takes and extra 30 minutes (on a bad day) to change pads which you may have to do every 50,000 km or so on a street driven vehicle. Amortized over a year or two that's not a big chunk of your life or your paycheck." -D. Armstrong Man, I guess some are pretty thick about this. These are not the type of dust-boots that appear on stock calipers. The Dust Seals on the Wilwoods are static, not a bellow. The piston slides past the additional dust seal. The material they are made out of can handle higher heat than the O-Rings, meaning if you got the caliper hot enough to damage the seal, your O-Rings would already be fried and the caliper would need to be rebuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 This was found in a for sale thread for Wilwood Calipers. Look for wilwood in the marketplace and you will find the quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traskw Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 This was found in a for sale thread for Wilwood Calipers. Look for wilwood in the marketplace and you will find the quote Wilwood makes a variety of calipers, these have a static seal not a billow style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 "The Dust Seals on the Wilwoods are static, not a bellow" You already said this in Post 70 I was only pointing you to the article I read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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