Boostjunkie Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Got my car back from Tein today. I went in being promised a set of Basic coilovers, but when I went in today, I found that they actually set my car up with their Flex coilover! I am more than a little stoked! The Flex's are adjustable for dampening (16 steps), ride height adjustable, preload adjustable and come with pillowballs up front for camber adjustment too. Big step up from the Basics... all for free. I'll post pics tommorrow morning, but the car looks sick. It it show car low right now, I'd guess at least 1.75"-2" lower. Amazingly enough it actually rides fairly well. That is all the more suprising because they set the car up with 8 kg/mm springs up front and 9 kg/mm springs in the back. That is stiff. The sales guy there said that the JDM stock springs are 6 kg/mm front and back, so we will actually get stiffer springs here. I haven't even checked to see what setting the dampeners are on, but it does feel well buttoned down. Small bumps feel almost a touch softer than stock, but anything bigger and you know the car is lowered. I think part of it is the ride height (low!), so I'm planning on raising it a touch. The stiffer setup has also brought out the rattles as well, but I guess that's the price you pay. Hopefully I can get the dealer to perform a rattle-etomy Handling wise, I took a couple of corners hard and the body roll is obviously reduced substantially, but it's still no go-cart. It still pushes (understeers) so I might go one step softer on the front springs and/or get some sways to dial in a little more roll stiffnes, particularly in the rear. Still, a huge improvement over stock. While it still rides acceptably, it doesn't have as much of a luxury car feel, for better and for worse. I knew that going in, so I'm not at all surprised. Anyways, I love the setup and I certainly can't argue about the price I think I'll spring for the EDFC so I can adjust the shocks from the cockpit. They wouldn't cut me a deal on that (can't blame 'em), so who knows of a vendor with a good price on the EDFC setup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 umm, the softer springs will make you understeer some more actually. You might want to preload the front a little to give your car some bite. Alignment would make a world of a difference. Also, make sure you are are not out of spec in terms of stroke distance. Springs themselves are suppose to help the car from rolling and weight transfers.. it's the shocks that do all the dirty work in terms of bumps. Oh yea, tires help too Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4_Maniac Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Keefe..I still need to make a appointment with you to do my corner balanceing.. life just slips away man..my bad.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 whenever, just let me know which day or weekend so I get the scales from my friend. $100. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driggity Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Did they say how the damping is different from the JDM models to go along with the stiffer springs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoDork Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I STILL HATE YOU!!...FREE!?!...WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO DO FOR THEM?? DENOUNCE CANADA?? YOU LUCKY BA$T@RD.... (much love!)... ~Sucka-Duck~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 umm, the softer springs will make you understeer some more actually. You might want to preload the front a little to give your car some bite. Alignment would make a world of a difference. Also, make sure you are are not out of spec in terms of stroke distance. Springs themselves are suppose to help the car from rolling and weight transfers.. it's the shocks that do all the dirty work in terms of bumps. Oh yea, tires help too Keefe Huh? I always thought that when the front springs were softer than the rear springs that the car would understeer less. Similarly with sway bar, relatively stiffer in back would dial out understeer. I'm pretty sure that the car is setup properly with respect to stroke distance, as Tein drove my car about 200 miles testing the calibration. From the rubber dust on the lower rear bumper, it looks like they had some fun in the process . They did also tell me that the car was aligned post install, and it looks like they dialed in some negative camber, both front and rear. The front might be able to use a touch more, and with the camber plates up front, that'll be a breeze to dial in. I reserve my final judgement till I have the time to setup the car to my tastes. I'm thinking of adding a bit of preload front and rear, raising the rear a bit more than the front, adding a bit of rear dampening and dialing in a little more front camber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 I STILL HATE YOU!!...FREE!?!...WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO DO FOR THEM?? DENOUNCE CANADA?? YOU LUCKY BA$T@RD.... (much love!)... Merv, you are one crazy mofo! Tyke looks like he's enjoying that beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axis008 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Nice! I can't wait to see pictures. -ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Huh? I always thought that when the front springs were softer than the rear springs that the car would understeer less. Similarly with sway bar, relatively stiffer in back would dial out understeer. I'm pretty sure that the car is setup properly with respect to stroke distance, as Tein drove my car about 200 miles testing the calibration. From the rubber dust on the lower rear bumper, it looks like they had some fun in the process . They did also tell me that the car was aligned post install, and it looks like they dialed in some negative camber, both front and rear. The front might be able to use a touch more, and with the camber plates up front, that'll be a breeze to dial in. I reserve my final judgement till I have the time to setup the car to my tastes. I'm thinking of adding a bit of preload front and rear, raising the rear a bit more than the front, adding a bit of rear dampening and dialing in a little more front camber. You got the Rear Sway Bar notion correct, but that's based on lateral distribution (sway bars are render useless once the opposing inside tire lifts off the ground), so now you have to depend on the shock/spring to give you grip, aka individual vertical loads.. in OEM form, the GT's spring rates are set at 3.5kg/mm front and 5kg/mm rear. In USDM, the GT has a 16mm rear sway to keep the car from oversteering (which if you drive the car hard enough, it does already oversteer). As for JDM, if you were to drive with the 20mm rear sway, the car would even drift or oversteer more. Any case, when you soften the front, you are allowing more weight to transfer forward to the car, thus you are taking the downforce away from the rear, making the rear light and swing around. This will hold VERY true when you are doing trail-braking. When you run a softer rear spring, the car will tend to squat more when acceleration (which will contribute to understeering when you try to accelerate out of a corner because the car is now squating in the rear, and there is less force on the front wheels to give you traction to point you in the correct direction). Rear camber is not adjustable (it's a result based on a lowered car). You would need adjustable rear lateral links to make toe and camber adjustments. The front you can do whatever you want. I managed to get as much as -4.5 degrees by readjusting the stock OEM camber bolts on top of the camber plates. Any case, you can set up however you want based on how you drive. Not sure how hardcore you are, but you can even corner-balance the car to make sure your cross corners are taking on the load to give you better overall traction when cornering. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sands Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Another thing to think about. The strut front end of the car will actually gain grip with a stiffer front sway. This will prevent camber gain and maintan a good contact patch. This is the same reason why more negative front camber gains more grip, but the camber introduces compromises in braking. Best bet to increase cornering power is to run a stiffer front and rear, not just rear sway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Here are the pics: http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/415000-415999/415436_59_full.jpg http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/415000-415999/415436_60_full.jpg http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/415000-415999/415436_61_full.jpg http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/415000-415999/415436_62_full.jpg http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/415000-415999/415436_63_full.jpg http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/415000-415999/415436_64_full.jpg http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/415000-415999/415436_65_full.jpg http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/415000-415999/415436_66_full.jpg I also went out and adjusted the dampening last night. Tein had it set at 12 on the front and 14 on the rear. So almost full stiff. Since I'm driving a couple of hours today to San Diego, with my mom riding along, I backed it all the way down to 1 in front and 3 in the rear. It is ALOT softer. Almost better than stock on small bumps, but again you can feel the lack of suspension travel over the bigger stuff. I'll get to that and balancing the car to my tastes later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05LegacyGT330Ci Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Looks great, I was expecting the wells to be over the wheels the way you first discribed the car. I love the lose of wheel gap that these coilovers eliminated. Enjoy them, I know you will at the price you paid Song of Post- Bob Marley- Zion Train '05 Black Legacy GT Wagon 5-spd '02 Topaz/Black 330Ci 5-spd Drift Ryder's School of Rally Arts, coming to an Australia near you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 These look great. I wasn't aware Tein had the Flex available for the Legacy. How much are they normally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axis008 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Boostjunkie, you're car looks really sweet! Jay, they were available, but in Japan. It seems the JDM coilovers work for the USDM Legacys. They should be about $1560 shipped overseas (w/ 2-3 mo. wait) from Japan directly from TEIN. Maybe now that they've tested Boostjunkie's car, they might have some in stock soon with USDM spring rates and whatnot. -ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb49 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Damn Paul, your car looks great. When I get my LGT you are tuning my Suspension. They're Mangosteens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Thanks Axis. I'm new to the Legacy and am trying to upgrade it without making mistakes. I had a Z06 Vette before this, which required few modifications, but my son is now driving and I wanted something a little more tame, but still fun. (He would eventually kill himself in the Z06 and the insurance was going to be ridiculous... :-) I was blown away after driving this car. All around, much more fun than any BMW sans "M" badge, and a lot cheaper. The brakes are weaker than I expected, but once I got rid of the RE92s (now have Michelin PS2s on SSR Comps 18 x 8) braking improved at the limit (the ABS doesn't light up at the touch of the petal...) The brake feel still isn't the best, but I'll get SS lines and maybe upgrade the pads, but at the moment I'm really interested in the suspension. Sways (with bushings and endlinks) and coilovers first, but which to buy is the issue. More research required, and any recommendations would be great. (BTW, I'm more biased to performance and can tolerate a pretty firm ride, although I'm not to big on removing the "independent" from independent suspension by putting on massive swaybars and springs that could be used in dump trucks... :-) I'll be autoXing the car this Summer, but it is also a daily driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axis008 Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Jay, sounds good. As for suspension pieces, there aren't too many different kinds out there right now. The market is still new and there's a lot of R&D still being done like with TEIN. Keefe (Xenonk) might be able to help you out with that though. Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance. Anyways, don't forget to post pictures of your car if you have time! -ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Actually, there's just as many suspension parts for this car as the WRX (as any other JDM modable car) minus a few parts that I am looking for that would only a race car setup would have. There's actually a lot of parts (as I already knew about Tein JDM parts for the Legacy). Just to let everyone know that since the retirement of the AWD King (Skyline) and a few of its rivals (Supra, RX7, and a few other JDM cars), Subaru has been staging and taking advantage of the market and have won a lot of Japan's car of the year awards. It's unfortunate that we get everything from Japan about a year behind, but the good thing is that we have a better chance of knowing what is actually available for us to purchase (or improve on). Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Thanks guys. Keefe, I've read several of your posts and you know your shiznit. I'd be curious what you would recommend for a suspension setup leaning more towards a track setup, but still streetable. All I think I want to do with the engine is an uppipe, TBE, and an Access port. The next level up starts pushing the engine more than I'd like (bigger turbo, injectors, fuel pumps, etc.) I'll take suggestions in that department too... :-) Thanks Axis, I'll post pictures after I get a chance to clean up the car. I put the wheels and tires on last week, thinking the DC area doesn't get that much snow, and of course it's snowed twice. I actually took the car out in about 1 1/2 of fresh powdered snow just to see how the Pilot Sport PS2s would take it. Curiously, they were decent in a straight line (braking and accelerating) but frightening (and I mean scary) with any lateral movement at all at any speed. (Yes, I know, never take max performance tires in the snow, but I couldn't help myself. Inquiring minds want to know... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Just let me know how much track events vs street driving you want to do.. sometimes you can lean towards more on the track setup and bare with the streetability of the setup or vice versa. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Keefe, I’m 48 now and don’t have as much time as I used to for the track. I may only do about 10-12 track days a year, although I’m going to try auto crossing this Summer as well. I’d like to introduce my son to performance driving and that was a big factor in choosing this car (I wish I had started with AWD) and the suspension setup. Personally, I can tolerate a pretty firm suspension for a daily driver. I actually like the car to transmit road feel. (If I run over a cigarette, I should be able to tell if it’s menthol or regular. :-) As background, this is my first foray into the small engine, turbo, AWD world. I’ve owned (and raced) mostly Corvettes (ZR-1, Z06, Z51s) and for a short while a 96 Viper (that car was a serious handful on the track.) I feel much more comfortable with a setup biased towards oversteer (the stock car has much more push than I like with crappy OEM tires and a rear swaybar that’s clearly too small.) On the other hand, I obviously don't like unpredictable behavior like the older 911’s or previous generation Vipers. (The 96 Viper I owned had tremendous grip right to the limit then BANG, the back wheels were passing you by in an instant and you were muscling the car around like mad.) On the other hand, I want to make sure the car isn’t too “twitchy” for my son. I think it will take some time for him to understand how important it is for steering inputs to be smooth as possible on a race course—especially at the limit. On paper I like the specs for the Tein Flex (I could only get specs for the STI version.) The spring rates are firm but not insane, they have adjustable dampening and pillowballs for alignment flexibility. I’m not sure about sway bars, although I’ve always bought them as a set from the same manufacturer after driving a friend’s car or getting a recommendation from someone I really trust. I’m not sure what bars from what manufacturers are the best bet or even if they are really available. (It seems very hard to find stiffness ratings to compare with stock. Diameter measurements don’t tell me a whole lot since stiffness also depends on the materials used, mounting points, whether the bar is hollow or solid, etc.) I want to improve turn in and greatly reduce body roll, but clearly don’t want to end up with coilovers and hyper-stiff sway bars that don’t allow suspension travel and can only be used on billiard ball smooth roads. I’m not sure if this helps. (I feel like I’ve droned on a bit…) But I feel like a stranger in a strange land with the Subaru. I love the car and it has tons of potential (both for comfort and performance), but I’m just not hooked in to the import tuner world. Thanks in advance. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Jay, I PMed you. 10 to 12 track days a year? I am suprised you are not a frequent driving instructor for BSR at Summit Point. You can read up your PM and let me know what you think. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Thanks Keefe. (I don't think I'd qualify as an instructor anywhere, but I do like to have fun.) I haven't raced seriously for about 9 years (divorce and subsequent single fatherhood really put a crimp in my schedule--and budget...) I previously spent quite a bit of time (not in this area) racing corvetted (in what would now be the SSU class I guess.) It was a bit expensive and I was mid-pack all the time, but it was tons of fun. Now that the kids are older, I'm going to dive back in--bad cornering pun not intented. :-) I've never really autocrossed, but it has always looked like tons of fun and it's certainly easier on the wallet. There also seem to be a lot of events at all levels. It's something my older son can do with me as well. I looked at your profile and notice you are sponsored and autoX as well as road race. (The perfect guy for advice.) Living the high life followed everywhere by blond track bunnys no doubt! Thanks for the help. Look forward to your PM. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 My brother currently has a set of Teins Flex on his WRX. It will take some tuning out of the Flexs to compete in AutoX. I probably raced on a set of Flexs enough to find out that the valving isnt aggressive enough, but more than great for daily driving and showing off to all your friends that you can go from "sport" to "pimp-cruise" mode for the ladies all with the push of a button the EDFC. That's all what it's good for in my opinion. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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