NonovUrbizniz Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 4th and 5th gear are not a product of what the car is doing at 2200rpm. Just for a moment lets assume it does. Low end torque in general terms is referenced to what amount of TQ at X rpm. Keep in mind that in the GT 5th gear is where you will see boost begin to roll-off. This is not a problem in a N/A car. The observations you made are based on where the GT's powerband is (you were right in it). You can always do modifications to any car, TC or N/A, to shift the powerband. Ie.....changing the diameter of the exhaust manifold..ect ect ect. Numbers: GT=250lbs-ft @ 3600rpm and 250hp @ 6000 rpm 2.5I= 166lbs-ft @ 4000 rmp and 168hp @ 5600 So I ask you....by these numbers who would have the better low end torque? Keep in mind that with the TC GT there is a period of "Lag", lets say up to 2200 rpm, but it hits max TQ 1400rpm later. A N/A car will need to suck up enough air and steadily progress it's intake to hit it's max torque mark, in this case the 2.5I at 4000rpm. The 2.5I will not be making any where near the TQ the GT is at even 2200rpm, let alone 3000rpm (give the TC some time to get to work). By looking at the numbers above you can see the GT has a wider powerband than the 2.5I. Which would be expected given the TC. What you are feeling in the 2.5I is a product of it's narrow powerband. First off... torque is just that ... torque... it isn't derived from anything except a direct measurement... HORSEPOWER is derived from torqueXRPM/5252 If it Torque were equal trqXrpm and it evened out over the entire RPM range what you said would make sense... A turbo car has a MUCH more variable torque curve than a NA car does. Turbo power is progressive... IE the higher the rpm the more exhaust gas turning the turbo which then feeds more air into the engine which results in MORE exhaust gas which results in the turbo feeding MORE air.. etc etc etc... A turbo car could have 300lb/ft of torque at 3000 rpm and only have 100 or less at 2000... A NA car is more likely to have an even torque curve... BOTH engines are 2.5l displacement... The Turbo has 8.x:1 compression... the NA has 9.x-10.x:1 compression (I don't know the exact figures.)... the NA will almost invariably produce more torque down low as it is compressing the air MUCH more than the turbo is until the turbo starts FORCING more air into the cylinder. Anyone who's ever built a NA engine to FI spec will tell you HANDS DOWN you lose low end torque... the lower the compression ratio the lower the torque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonovUrbizniz Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 its actually Empirically.... defined as.... 1 : originating in or based on observation or experience. 2 : relying on experience or observation alone often without due reguard for system and theory. Therefore....Empirically testing them would be exactly the same as going by your "feelings." Nothing personal, just clearing some things up. Now back to the other part of the statement. It should be obvious to most people who have the MT that the best acceleration does not come just from slamming the gas down, you will get more from rolling on the gas. Also at the point where 5th is doing 70...you are talking about almost 3k rpm...therefore the GT is in its powerband with the turbo spooled, so its already producing more torque on the highway than the 2.5i would be. Low end torque and high rpms, don't exactly go together. I would expect the 2.5i to perhaps have more torque below say 2500 rpm when first starting from a stop,as opposed to the GT, but not really any other time, and certainly not on the highway at cruising speeds. Actually no... I'm not sure where you got that definition but Websters seems to think otherwise... em·pir·i·cal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-pîr-kl) adj. Relying on or derived from observation or experiment: empirical results that supported the hypothesis. Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment: empirical laws. Guided by practical experience and not theory, especially in medicine. I would prefer to be guided by experience over theory ANY DAY. As mentioned above the only real answer to this question would be found in comparing dyno sheets of a stock I and a stock GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdanhires Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 A. THERE IS NO WAY POSSIBLE THAT THE GT HAS MORE LOW END TORQUE THAN THE i as the i Has a MUCH higher compression ratio and the same displacement... Um, you know that the compression ratio has almost nothing to do with the amount of torque an engine produces, right? From Subaru's website: 2.5i 166 lb.-ft. @ 4000 rpm 2.5GT 250 lb.-ft. @ 3600 rpm Heck, according to Cobb's Dyno, the stock LGT puts out 130 lb-ft at 2000 rpm. Um, Ok. The 2.5i has better lowend than the GT.....in Bizzarro world. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euclid Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 You need to shut your ignorant mouth... A. THERE IS NO WAY POSSIBLE THAT THE GT HAS MORE LOW END TORQUE THAN THE i as the i Has a MUCH higher compression ratio and the same displacement... B. I Drove and Bought MANUAL... I don't drive auto.. I test drove Both the i and the GT in BOTH auto and manual... C. 2200 rpm is where it STARTS to spool... it's not making any serious power till 3k... the turbo produces over 13psi... you really think it's at capacity at 2200 rpm??? D. Low end torque is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD.... if you are driving on the highway and you NEED to accelerate you NEED low end torque... w/o it you are forced to downshift to a gear with more power. that is CRITICAL time... I actually imperically tested them instead of driving them randomly and going by my "feelings" I went on the highway and drove at 70mph... then FLOORED the gas... in both 4th and 5th gear in BOTH the GT and the i. in 4th the GT obviously won hands down... in 5th the i picked up quicker... hence better LOW END TORQUE. How old are you? a- between 0-2800rpms, this is probably true, after that it's not even close. b- that's nice c- Show me a dyno plot of a 2.5i vs a 2.5GT to prove this. d- This is a typical american driver response. Are you the type to say the S2000 is crap because OMG!! IT HAS "NO" TORQUE. You speak of the need to downshift as losing "CRITICAL time". Has there ever been a time in your life where if you didn't have that instant monster acceleration when going 70 on the freeway in top gear could was dangerous? Like you were between 2 cars, and someone was coming up on you really really fast and had no intention of slowing down and unless you had that instant go you'd be toast. Probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-2.5-GT Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 First off... torque is just that ... torque... it isn't derived from anything except a direct measurement... Where did you get this information..... Torque = The moment of a force; the measure of a force's tendency to produce torsion and rotation about an axis, equal to the vector product of the radius vector from the axis of rotation to the point of application of the force and the force vector. in otherwords.... T = r x F Torque is not simply a measurement. Your "experienced measurement" doesn't quite match up with the THEORETICAL LAW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 First off... torque is just that ... torque... it isn't derived from anything except a direct measurement... HORSEPOWER is derived from torqueXRPM/5252 If it Torque were equal trqXrpm and it evened out over the entire RPM range what you said would make sense... A turbo car has a MUCH more variable torque curve than a NA car does. Turbo power is progressive... IE the higher the rpm the more exhaust gas turning the turbo which then feeds more air into the engine which results in MORE exhaust gas which results in the turbo feeding MORE air.. etc etc etc... A turbo car could have 300lb/ft of torque at 3000 rpm and only have 100 or less at 2000... A NA car is more likely to have an even torque curve... BOTH engines are 2.5l displacement... The Turbo has 8.x:1 compression... the NA has 9.x-10.x:1 compression (I don't know the exact figures.)... the NA will almost invariably produce more torque down low as it is compressing the air MUCH more than the turbo is until the turbo starts FORCING more air into the cylinder. Anyone who's ever built a NA engine to FI spec will tell you HANDS DOWN you lose low end torque... the lower the compression ratio the lower the torque. Actually, the fact that the 2.5I is a SOHC compared to our DOHC will have more to do with it than anything. However, low end torque has very little if any affect on 4th and 5th gear, which what you tested the two at. OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-2.5-GT Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 However, low end torque has very little if any affect on 4th and 5th gear, which what you tested the two at. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05LegacyGT330Ci Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Actually low end torque can be tested in any gear as long as it the, low end, of the gear. This is not low speed ha torque he is talking about but low end which assumes that you are in the low end of the rev range which can be done in any gear. Song of Post- Led Zeppelin- Thank You '05 Black Legacy GT Wagon 5-spd '02 Topaz/Black 330Ci 5-spd Drift Ryder's School of Rally Arts, coming to an Australia near you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroMan Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Im looking into getting a 2005 legacy GT....i was wondering what you guys thought about the low end torque......i guess im acking how impressed ill be with the acceleration??.....thanks for your help. The GT has pleanty of torque. There is some turbo lag present, but other wise very drivable. Once the car is warmed up, I generally use two gears when accelerating in city trafic: 2nd and 4th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonovUrbizniz Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 When car companies (or performance companies) are trying to assertain HP they do so by first MEASURING the torque... they then DERIVE HP from torque using the formula: HP=TrqXRPM/5252 torque is measured via a dynamometer. Either a wheel dyno (in the case of a performance shop) or an engine dynamometer... EITHER WAY... it calculates the speed at which the engine or wheels turn a shaft of a known weight... the rate of turning that known weight is TORQUE... As far as SOHC vs DOHC... that in itself has NO affect on torque... it MAY in the case of different designs... but you can/will achieve IDENTICAL torque numbers given the exhaust/intake cam events take place at the same instance and their duration is the same... YES you CAN change the DOHC to achieve more torque but it is not to say that it automatically produces more having DOHC compared to SOHC. That is all in the cam designs... not how many there are. Frankly having 2 cams per head would do more to reduce usable torque than increase it as it creates more parasitic energy loss within the engine... IE it takes less effort to turn 1 cam than it does to turn 2. The only way you could validly (without a dyno sheet) say that the DOHC GT motor produces more torque down low by virtue of DOHC is that it has variable valve lift which could produce higher torque at lower rpm by optimizing the lift for the RPM. Even given it's variable valve lift ability... the reduced compression ratio would still leave it at a distinct dis-advantage for low end torque... HAVING SAID ALL OF THIS... it doesn't much matter... 1st gear is the ONLY gear you really need lowend torque.. for every gear after that (as long as you ride out the previous gear) starts at a RPM which the GT will already be in boost... the only problems arise when you are lackadaisically driving at a low rpm and SUDDENLY need to accelerate... in the GT you must down shift or wait for it to spool... In the i you MAY have enough torque to get you moving without a downshift. Although I'm thouroughly un-impressed with the i's lowend torque as well. So chances are you have to downshift anyway... only in the i it's not half as much fun. Long story short... Who cares which has more lowend torque... neither of them have enough. As mentioned earlier this is all subjective depending on what you consider "enough" low end torque... If you went from a 1.5l civic to either the GT or the i then it's got TONS... if you're last car was ANYTHING with a V8... then neither of them have anywhere near the needed amount. I decided against the GT because A. I'm poor and cant really afford it. B. If I'm going to get a "fast" car... it's going to be fast all over... if I wanted to only make power over 3k rpm then I would've kept driving my civic. I like balance... I don't like to feel like my car is lacking at any point... be it braking, susp, acceleration, or whatever... and in the GT I felt like it NEEDS to be downshifted to get any real fast response out of it... unless you're willing to drive around at 3k RPM+ CONSTANTLY. High even torque curves are what REAL sports cars have... lots of power up top is what "boy racer" cars have. Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deimos Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I decided against the GT because A. I'm poor and cant really afford it. B. If I'm going to get a "fast" car... it's going to be fast all over... if I wanted to only make power over 3k rpm then I would've kept driving my civic. I like balance... I don't like to feel like my car is lacking at any point... be it braking, susp, acceleration, or whatever... and in the GT I felt like it NEEDS to be downshifted to get any real fast response out of it... unless you're willing to drive around at 3k RPM+ CONSTANTLY. High even torque curves are what REAL sports cars have... lots of power up top is what "boy racer" cars have. I dunno what your doin here, sounds like you should go over to MustangGT.com... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunderkind Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Got your car right here!!! 300C baby! HEMI V8. ps: and u're very adobrable in that Japanese Kimono spouting all these technical stuff. HAAAIIIII-YAAAH!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driggity Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 High even torque curves are what REAL sports cars have... lots of power up top is what "boy racer" cars have. When I think of F1 cars revving to 18,000+ rpms I think boy racer. This whole thread has been hilarious (and in many cases misleading). If you want to determine if a car has enough low end torque to fit your driving style then the best way to know is to drive the car yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonovUrbizniz Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 F1's aren't exactly what we're talking about here... we're talking about daily driven sports cars... which noone would even want to rev to 10k much less 18k. Do you know of ANY porsche, ferrari, lambo, etc. that doesn't have usable torque over the ENTIRE rpm range. Cuz I don't and I've driven a fair amount of real sports cars. FYI... that's not a kimono and I'm not 3 years old. It has nothing to do with mustangs or hemi's ... it has to do with REAL SPORTS CARS... which neither the hemi or the mustang are. The point is if you want a ALL AROUND fast car you NEED a broad even torque curve (line)... not a turbo charged 4 cyl that only makes power up top. It's cute how you guys keep coming back with personal attacks and assumptions about what kind of cars I'm into... and not fact refuting ANYTHING I've said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deimos Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I still don't know what your arguing about. This forum is related to the Legacy GT, a luxury sports sedan. If you want to talk REAL SPORTS CARS (in screaming all-caps), what are we referring to here? The mcclaren f1? The Ford GT?? Is that pertinent to discussion of the LGT? I think we can all agree that whether you consider the LGT good on the "low-end" is gonna depend on what your used to. I used to drive an RX-7 turbo so to me 3k rpm is low and the LGT is great. If im in 5th gear and need power, I know to downshift I dont get mad at the LGT for not having balls at 3k rpm in 5th gear when I know 5k rpm in 4th would be much better. If you cant afford it and are looking for an "all-around" sports car I guess you should be looking at something else..tho for the cash I dont know what except for maybe the Mustang GT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euclid Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 F1's aren't exactly what we're talking about here... we're talking about daily driven sports cars... which noone would even want to rev to 10k much less 18k. Do you know of ANY porsche, ferrari, lambo, etc. that doesn't have usable torque over the ENTIRE rpm range. Cuz I don't and I've driven a fair amount of real sports cars. FYI... that's not a kimono and I'm not 3 years old. It has nothing to do with mustangs or hemi's ... it has to do with REAL SPORTS CARS... which neither the hemi or the mustang are. The point is if you want a ALL AROUND fast car you NEED a broad even torque curve (line)... not a turbo charged 4 cyl that only makes power up top. It's cute how you guys keep coming back with personal attacks and assumptions about what kind of cars I'm into... and not fact refuting ANYTHING I've said. What's funny is you think you know what you're talking about but you really don't. So you're saying a turbo car can't be a sports car. Well I guess the F40 is out, same with the 911 turbo, oops there goes the RX7. As for your reference to the "entire rpm range" argument. Please tell me anyone who is actually driving a car in a performance application that is in a gear where they are at a low rpm? NEVER! You're in the gear where you are in the power band. No cars usable powerband is down low. (well a diesel perhaps) The 360 modena's usable power is up high. I'd hardly call the LGT's power "up high" 3000 rpms isn't exactly high. And as for "noone" wanting to drive a high reving car... Don't tell that to all the S2000 owners, or RX8 owners. Hell... the 360/430 Modena's 8500 redline, or the new M5's 8250 redline.. What crap cars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Honestly, if your looking for a sports car and can't afford the GT, then your probably not gonna be in the game for a "true" sports car in the sense that you are describing. If you want low end grunt then get a S/C mustang??? Apparently cars like the FD, Supra, STI, EVO, are not in the "sport" class. Honestly, I don't think manufacturer's or industry for that matter classify cars based upon what torque they have at 2200rpm. Unless something changed??? OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JessterCPA Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 You want torque?? http://www.dodgeboy.net/news/ram3500/images/492309t-0335h_jpg.jpg http://www.dodgeboy.net/news/ram3500/images/cummins_jpg.jpg "The powerful all-new 5.9-liter High Output Cummins Turbo Diesel delivers a monstrous 555 lb.-ft. of torque" Courtesy of: http://www.dodgeboy.net/news/ram3500/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deimos Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Now THAT's a REAL SPORTS CAR! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driggity Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Ah, the flat torque curve of a Porsche 911TT X50. http://www.ktrperformance.com/services/Dyno_Graphs/Porsche/02_Ted_996tt.gif And NonovUrbizniz I agreed with most of what you said until the real sports cars have a flat torque curve comment. Most of the silly comments were made by other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euclid Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Now THAT's a REAL SPORTS CAR! lol UPDATE: NOT A SPORTS CAR http://celicaman.f0e.net/albums/7_6_04/DSCN2720.sized.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JessterCPA Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Oh nevermind.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaqtly Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 The point is if you want a ALL AROUND fast car you NEED a broad even torque curve (line)... not a turbo charged 4 cyl that only makes power up top. This is funny to the point of being stupid. I'm just going to assume at this point that you have't actually seen a dyno chart for the Legacy GT, right? I think you're struggling against a couple issues here: 1. You think 3000 RPM is "high RPM" or "up top" 2. You think the LGT doesn't have a flat torque curve. So from the way you're describing your ideal driving experience, you want a car that makes 100% of its torque from 250 RPM and has a redline at 3000 RPM because that's "up top" for you. Well I think the choice is obvious - you want a diesel. Thanks for posting, glad we could help. Now go find yourself a "real" sports car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deimos Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 On a serious note Nunuvyourwhateveryounameis. You could try the Volvo S40 T5, its turbo but I hear all the torque is available around 1200rpm if thats low enough for you....but still expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIJibz Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 wow, being a new member and all, not even owning my own car yet, and not knowing nearly as much as all of u guys, i mite not have much say in this, but i do know that arguing back and forth between each other over the internet isnt gonna change nuvowatevers opinions, nor will his opinions change anyone elses. as far as i see, the original question in the beginning of the thread was about the LGT low end torque...now i see pics of S2000s and Dodge Rams... just making a point, not looking to start another fight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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