LGT outrun a 2nd Gen M3?

[Smada]

A friend of mine is about to pick up a used 1998 M3. It has had some mods done, mainly suspension but it has a chipped ECU. Will my LGT 5MT outrun him?

[Drift Monkey]

A friend of mine is about to pick up a used 1998 M3. It has had some mods done, mainly suspension but it has a chipped ECU. Will my LGT 5MT outrun him?

I'm not sure how much he'd make with teh "chippage," but you can outrun a stock one..

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

I do think a stock one would take you once on in 3rd gear though maybe even 2nd. They are lighter and just about as powerful with very good gearing as usual.

[Drift Monkey]

I do think a stock one would take you once on in 3rd gear though maybe even 2nd. They are lighter and just about as powerful with very good gearing as usual.

0-60 in 5.9 seconds, 14.3@98mph.

 

If you can drive well, you should be beyond him.

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

We both know it was faster then that. And its from a roll that I think it would do better. The extra heft of the LGT and the AWD would hold it back in the end, including hte gearing.

[Drift Monkey]

We both know it was faster then that. And its from a roll that I think it would do better. The extra heft of the LGT and the AWD would hold it back in the end, including hte gearing.

True, but out of the dig it'd gain a clear advantage.

 

Yeah, it was a bit faster than that, but in the end, it'd be a good race...drivers spoken for, of course.

[Driver72]

It'll really come down to a few things:

 

1. Whether you race from a stop.

In that case you should jump a car length or two out in front and be able to

hold that distance for quite some time if you shift perfectly.

 

2. Whether you race from a roll

In this case, it's going to depend on the speed you start from.

70 and under it will be a driver's race and who shifts the best.

70+ I think the BMW will have the advantage and pull on you a bit.

 

3. Whether his used car is running great.

If he can drive (shift gears) good and the car is running really well, you might

have trouble with him. Not sure how much the chip will do for that car.

Might give it a couple hp and tq, but probably does more about raising the rev limiter

and such.

 

Motor Trend got a 1995 model to do:

0-60 in 5.3 seconds

1/4 in 13.9 @ 99.6

 

But most tests and drag results put the cars

0-60 in mid 5's and

1/4 in low 14's @ 98 mph.

 

Just about where our cars are stock.

 

It should be fun to see how the cars stack up.

Do a few runs from different starting speeds and let us know.

[Smada]

Ya I'm planning on hitting a local track this Spring, I'll have to convince him to come along. We got pulled over for drag racing right before I bought my subaru. We were messing around after golf in our hondas (me - civic, him - accord) and weren't really racing but we squealed the tires and went over the speed limit. Luckily the cop was nice and after a lot of apologizing on our part she let us go. Anyways, we really don't want to run on streets anymore!

[agctr]

Stock E46M would WALK a LGT MY05 period, no questions asked.

E36M = 225HP or there abouts

MY05 = 250HP

 

Close very close, I think where the LGT would lwin to 100MPH after that, the M would dominate. The euro's are in a class of their own after that.

Adam.

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

Actually the M50 was 240hp, 221 lb ft thats why I'm saying itd be pretty close. It also only weighed 3100 pounds.

 

THe S50 for the Euro was 286 hp and 236lb ft and the later 3.2 was 321 hp and 274lb ft if I recall.

[agctr]

Well that puts in even more in the M3 court........

Thanks.

Adam.

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

Agreed Adam

 

Signed,

Andrew

[lemming]

Actually the M50 was 240hp, 221 lb ft thats why I'm saying itd be pretty close. It also only weighed 3100 pounds.

 

THe S50 for the Euro was 286 hp and 236lb ft and the later 3.2 was 321 hp and 274lb ft if I recall.

 

the S50 was 225hp/221ft#'s and the S52 was the 3.2litre variant with 240hp/236ft#'s.

 

i owned an e36m3. it is a very cammy engine without a lot on the radar under the VANOS transition at about 3800 or so rpms. the issue is complicated by the gearing for the US. it's still unclear if the US spec e36m3 would walk a legacy GT even above 100mph. mine felt pretty soft above 90mph.

 

the eurospec e36m3 was THE car. it was not the bastardized 328 engine like the US spec engine was. that engine had 6 throttle bodies and needed valve adjustments (manually). it weighed a lot. but the cars made a ton of HP and made it high in the powerband. the entry 1996ish eurospec M3 was the 270ish HP car and the final iterations were 321hp cars and both were geared for the top end and went like banshees above 100mphs. have been on the track with an m3 converted to a eurospec engine and it was night and day.

 

i think people are less likely to realize that the US spec e36m3 was just a bored and stroked 328 with a single throttle body and no dual vanos like the e46s. it only had variable valve exhaust timing and didn't have the huge area to integrate underneath the power curve.

 

my take? 7 times out of 10 the legacy GT would lead an M3 through a quarter mile and that's usually the race for US peeps.

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

Hmm sorry the numbers were wrong they were form the top of my head. I agree the US Spec M3 was garbage, especially compared the Euro. The 3.2 321 hp guy was a monster at triple digit speeds as you spoke of. But we never had the true S50 here we only had the M50 becuae we never got a true M engine, just a slightly worked over standard E36 engine.

[Drift Monkey]

my take? 7 times out of 10 the legacy GT would lead an M3 through a quarter mile and that's usually the race for US peeps.

Same here...the torquey characteristics of the Legacy seems to be the difference in a 1/4 standing start, combined with an AWD launch of course.

[PGT]

Didn't the last versions of the E36 M motors have 315Hp in the US? If I remember right, that brought the 0-60 down to around 5 seconds flat, or was that only for the M coupe and roadster ('01 and '02 models) and not the M3? Last E36 M3 was '99?

[lemming]

Didn't the last versions of the E36 M motors have 315Hp in the US? If I remember right, that brought the 0-60 down to around 5 seconds flat, or was that only for the M coupe and roadster ('01 and '02 models) and not the M3? Last E36 M3 was '99?

 

the only M motor that had 315hp was the detuned (redline from 8000rpms to 7600rpms) S54 motor from the e46m3 in the shortlived M coupe's last year or production.

 

the e36m3 in the US never saw more than 240hp; when it was used in the M coupe (MY 2000, for example) which had twin dual exhausts, it had 250hp.

 

in summary, the e36m3 was all marketing hype and the real m3 was either the e30m3 or the e46m3.

 

ergo, a "plebian" car like the legacy gt easily keeps up with/outpaces an e36m3.....in a straightline.

[javamon]

Hey guys...I was shown this thread by my friend, and I've read a bit more on the board previously... Felt somewhat a need to jump in and correct some information as I'm an elitist M3 owner

 

Anyway, some corrected info. First, on that last post, that wasn't the E36 S52 in the later M-Coupes and roadsters. That was the S54, detuned due to some exhaust routing problems.

 

Second, although the S52 in my 96 M3 is indeed a bored/stroked 328 engine, it was done by BMW-M in Germany...thus, the official S designation. The M50/M52 are different engines. The Euro S50/S52 and later S52-Evo engine were, as you all say, rightly a more sophisticated engine. The Evo with 321hp especialy, with the individual throttles and infinitely variable timing. However, as I recall, it didn't have much more torque than the US spec, and it wasn't as streetable. Aside from the primary reason we didn't get the full euro treatment, that is, cost, there were other considerations. First, it was decided that because the US has speed limits, more emphasis should be placed on low-speed acceleration. Thus, the Euro E36's were only a tenth or two faster than the US spec on a full launch, and looking at the available torque of the US S52, the Euro wouldn't "feel" as fast running up to the speed limit in, say, 3rd or 4th, or tooling around town @ 2000 revs. As well, our gasoline is a bit unkind to the alloys in the Evo block...

 

Regardless, the Evo engine is better for the track and high-speed (autobahn) work, and, you have that "cool technology". And there's no excuse for not giving us the 6 speed/floating rotors. But, and this is hesitantly, as it's my first post on a foreign board, that's not to say the E36 M3 is garbage. I feel it's quite the opposite. In fact, I would even call it plebian compared to the LGT...it's definately not as refined, imho. It's easy to work on yourself, and compared to the modern products of the german horsepower civil war, bulletproof. And today, they're cheap.

 

Now, I've driven my friend's LGT briefly, and I did enjoy it. I think the two are evenly matched, and in anything but the dry, well, game, set, and match -> LGT. But for me, and this is largely why I have one, the E36 M3 has something that's beyond marketing hype. It's not the fastest in the world, I know, but, it's hellatiously fun. Unloved middle child maybe?

[lemming]

Hey guys...I was shown this thread by my friend, and I've read a bit more on the board previously... Felt somewhat a need to jump in and correct some information as I'm an elitist M3 owner

 

Anyway, some corrected info. First, on that last post, that wasn't the E36 S52 in the later M-Coupes and roadsters. That was the S54, detuned due to some exhaust routing problems.

 

Second, although the S52 in my 96 M3 is indeed a bored/stroked 328 engine, it was done by BMW-M in Germany...thus, the official S designation. The M50/M52 are different engines. The Euro S50/S52 and later S52-Evo engine were, as you all say, rightly a more sophisticated engine. The Evo with 321hp especialy, with the individual throttles and infinitely variable timing. However, as I recall, it didn't have much more torque than the US spec, and it wasn't as streetable. Aside from the primary reason we didn't get the full euro treatment, that is, cost, there were other considerations. First, it was decided that because the US has speed limits, more emphasis should be placed on low-speed acceleration. Thus, the Euro E36's were only a tenth or two faster than the US spec on a full launch, and looking at the available torque of the US S52, the Euro wouldn't "feel" as fast running up to the speed limit in, say, 3rd or 4th, or tooling around town @ 2000 revs. As well, our gasoline is a bit unkind to the alloys in the Evo block...

 

Regardless, the Evo engine is better for the track and high-speed (autobahn) work, and, you have that "cool technology". And there's no excuse for not giving us the 6 speed/floating rotors. But, and this is hesitantly, as it's my first post on a foreign board, that's not to say the E36 M3 is garbage. I feel it's quite the opposite. In fact, I would even call it plebian compared to the LGT...it's definately not as refined, imho. It's easy to work on yourself, and compared to the modern products of the german horsepower civil war, bulletproof. And today, they're cheap.

 

Now, I've driven my friend's LGT briefly, and I did enjoy it. I think the two are evenly matched, and in anything but the dry, well, game, set, and match -> LGT. But for me, and this is largely why I have one, the E36 M3 has something that's beyond marketing hype. It's not the fastest in the world, I know, but, it's hellatiously fun. Unloved middle child maybe?

 

i owned a bone stock S52 M3 and then a supercharged S52 M coupe. i didn't find either engine to be all that enthralling. i'm not one to call an M3 owner an elitist, but facts are facts.

 

times have changed and the bar keeps sliding to the right. the L-GT is as fast as the e36m3 and the 2000 s4. those facts are what they are. it's likely not as fast on a road course but in a straight line having owned both cars, there is no doubt in my mind that the e36m3 is an expensive 328 that was unfair to those of us living in the US given that the true M3 of the era was a 321hp monster.

 

"unloved" middle child has nothing to do with it. it was just a "special" US-only m3. even the canadians got the real M3.

[javamon]

Yeah, I'm not disputing that the bar has moved on, and the e36 m3 has obviously stayed the same (nor get into a flamewar on my 2nd post). But the thing is, on paper, you're right, the m3 is just an expensive 328. But if you've driven a 328, even a modified one, you'll feel a substantial difference in both the engine and chassis response as soon as you switch back to the M. The 2.8 is absolutely nothing like the 3.2 in reality. I think that's what you need to feel to understand, as I thought somewhat the same thing in my mind, as well, before feeling it firsthand.

 

The only thing we didn't get was the engine and gearbox...the suspension, which is a big part of it, is the same. It was unfair we didn't get that engine, true, but, I'm not going to cry over a tenth difference in 0-60. I think that the US engine is a masterpiece regardless of it's origin...but then again, I didn't pay the sticker price. That's another part of the equation, the used value. Real M3 or not, it achieves 100% or more of the performance of where the bar is today, but at half the cost, hence, my recent purchase.

 

And maybe I'll have a look around, but maybe you could answer a newbie question...anyone have actual times for how the LGT does from a stop if you don't do a clutch drop (or massive slip)? That is, times that I would see, because I don't think I'd ever put my driveline through that, if I were to purchase one eventually. I know that when both are launched full-stop, it'll be a drivers race, but what about when the driveline's feelings are thought about?