Subaru considering STI junior for market gap between WRX and STI

[Guest]

I think you overanalyze it. This might be AUSDM thing only. Plus STI prices will come down I think over time.

 

But truth is, indeed, I would not be so sure about turbocharged legacy future (in USDM).

[rbl2]

why have 3 variants of the same car for the same purpose? why not just kill the "S-GT" aka usdm wrx; and make a real WRX. all it really needs is some suspension mods, maybe some 18's, and slight power bump.

 

my idea of impreza lineup: STi, WRX (real wrx), 2.0d (diesel), 2.5i.

 

move the current WRX up the latter, then introduce the diesel to slot in where the current wrx is. 3 different cars for 3 different purposes. if there was a junior STi, mostly everyone would buy it for "bang for the buck", which would eat STi and wrx sales.

 

I'm not a proponent of the Jr. STI. But I think a more sensible solution would be, Keep the current WRX and call it a GT (but have standard 2.5i seats with leather, sunroof etc..), have a better handling more aggressive WRX with the WRX name (Same power) and then STI (ofcourse keeping 2.5i).

 

I highly doubt the 2.0 diesel makes it to the Impreza

[IwannaSportSedan]

I don't see how a model between WRX and STI kills the Legacy GT? I'm sure SOA realizes a customer of the WRX is infact different then a Legacy customer. Also realize SOA isn't as responsible as you might think, when it comes to design of the products headed here, and what they can bring here from Japan.

 

Because SOA, and Subaru generally tends to push the WRX and STI as performance products, and has all but ignored the Legacy GT Turbo since it's introduction in the US in 2005.

 

In Australia, and Japan, the turbo Legacy may be able to withstand the infighting between customers choosing between a "mid-wrx" and a Legacy GT with the same power and price.

 

In the US, the Legacy GT is an unknown to most of the market. If SOA even barely nudges the hypothetical mid-WRX, it will very likely eat sales that would otherwise be Legacy GT sales from Subaru buyers. Again, same power, same price, and nearly the same size, the only difference would be 5-door appearance.

 

Normally, if the WRX lineup were noticeably different in size, price, and power, as well as styling, I don't have a problem with companies offering multiple products for sporty car buyers.

 

But this theoretical mid-wrx is TOO CLOSE. AND SOA doesn't seem to care to support the Legacy GT.

 

If sales of the Legacy GT erode, I think SOA will cancel the line, and just go with 2.5i and 3.0R models only, similar to the 2001-2004 Legacy lineup, which was not turbocharged in the US. (only the Baja came with a turbo in that chassis, not even Outback did.) It would be disappointing enough if lack of market penetration brings that about.

 

But if SOA were to bring in a mid-WRX to cannibalize the LGT's position, knowingly, that isn't dissappointing, that is infuriating.

 

We have a track record to reference for this. Legacy GT wagon. It is GONE from the US, while Canada, and other markets still get it. Legacy GT sedan hasn't been the better for it, either. While we have gained the no-brainer 3.0R model which should have come along much earlier (and 3.0R Legacy wagons could have bolstered Legacy wagon sales, but were never introduced) and the Spec B which is hobbled by no options or configuration variance, not even color. The Legacy GT has lost some options, and not gained many since 2005.

 

That tells me that SOA doesn't care. They don't offer audio options, they don't offer other options that are available throughout the rest of the world, via Japan.

 

SOA mucked with the Legacy's styling, compared to the JDM model, to the US model's detriment. No HID lights optional. No rear fogs on the 08+ models. the tail lights for USDM sedans don't fit the body lines like the JDM ones do, which is a really simple, yet really annoying detail. The US front bumper covers are noticeably 'dowdy' compared to the others, and cars like the Spec B don't get unique bumper cover that is more sporty. The ROW Spec B cars have unique bumper covers AND grilles that both look much better, and visibly different than the rest of the line.

 

SOA has not been keen on the Legacy for some time. And a mid-WRX would be set to usurp the GT's market position as a $30k turbo sport model. I don't think Subaru has the sales base or diverse performance reputation to sell both, and I think the Legacy would lose that contest, based on SOA's behavior, and the WRX/STI's name recognition advantage.

 

And I for one, would not replace my Legacy GT with a mid-WRX when the time comes. And I won't buy a non-performance-oriented, more sedate Legacy, either.

 

If Subaru does this, and it affects the Legacy GT the way I think it will, They will likely lose me as any kind of a future customer, permanently, by not offering me a compelling product in the segment I want to buy.

 

BMW, Cadillac, Pontiac, Acura, Jaguar, Saturn, Lincoln, Saab, Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, and more are producing sporty sedans at various levels of technical proficiency. If Legacy drops from those ranks entirely, rather than just being the unknown player in the market, I think that is the wrong move for Subaru.

 

When you say: "I'm sure SOA realizes a customer of the WRX is infact different then a Legacy customer." I think you may be right, but that doesn't go to them respecting the Legacy customer, or seeking to retain them over the WRX customer, which already has two turbocharged offerings with a much larger difference than the GT and Spec B Legacys have. SOA hasn't shown that they respect the Legacy customer so far, in their product offering and marketing efforts.

[Guest]

It is really baffling, given Legacy is made right here in the U.S. You would think SOA would do extra effort to support their local product, not imports from Japan. Alas not the case.

 

It would be so easy to make Legacy more appealing to a broader market by offering more luxury options you mention, yet just don't care.

 

SOA = retards

[rbl2]

Because SOA, and Subaru generally tends to push the WRX and STI as performance products, and has all but ignored the Legacy GT Turbo since it's introduction in the US in 2005.

 

SOA has not ignored the Turbo models, the US CUSTOMERS HAVE IGNORED THE LEGACY GT! Don't you get it? If people BUY IT, they'll bring more in. But they're not going to stuff them down dealers throats, in hopes that people will buy them.

 

In the US, the Legacy GT is an unknown to most of the market. If SOA even barely nudges the hypothetical mid-WRX, it will very likely eat sales that would otherwise be Legacy GT sales from Subaru buyers. Again, same power, same price, and nearly the same size, the only difference would be 5-door appearance.

 

For what a half year? The 2010 Legacy is going to be larger then the current one, fitting it inline size wise yet again with the Accord and Camry. A mid level WRX would retain Legacy GT customers who feel the new product is too large.

 

 

 

 

If sales of the Legacy GT erode, I think SOA will cancel the line, and just go with 2.5i and 3.0R models only, similar to the 2001-2004 Legacy lineup, which was not turbocharged in the US. (only the Baja came with a turbo in that chassis, not even Outback did.) It would be disappointing enough if lack of market penetration brings that about.

 

Understand, the success of the original WRX is one reason there even exists a Legacy GT Turbo. And even in it's current form, the WRX still outsells the Legacy GT, even though the Legacy/Outback lineup blows the impreza sales numbers out of the water.

 

We have a track record to reference for this. Legacy GT wagon. It is GONE from the US, while Canada, and other markets still get it. Legacy GT sedan hasn't been the better for it, either. While we have gained the no-brainer 3.0R model which should have come along much earlier (and 3.0R Legacy wagons could have bolstered Legacy wagon sales, but were never introduced) and the Spec B which is hobbled by no options or configuration variance, not even color. The Legacy GT has lost some options, and not gained many since 2005.

 

Come on man, the GT wagon lives on as a Outback XT. So it's 2 inches higher... That move makes since, the Legacy Wagon sold poorly, and blurred the line to much between Legacy and Outback. Maybe you didn't notice the Outback sedan has left the building as well.

 

That tells me that SOA doesn't care. They don't offer audio options, they don't offer other options that are available throughout the rest of the world, via Japan.

 

Maybe they will, who knows, but you should know some things will not work on scale worth doing in the US... Some people like pink and purple cars, but that doesn't make for a Business case on offering those colors, which would only sell to 5 people nationwide.

 

SOA mucked with the Legacy's styling, compared to the JDM model, to the US model's detriment. No HID lights optional. No rear fogs on the 08+ models. the tail lights for USDM sedans don't fit the body lines like the JDM ones do, which is a really simple, yet really annoying detail. The US front bumper covers are noticeably 'dowdy' compared to the others, and cars like the Spec B don't get unique bumper cover that is more sporty.

 

Once again you assume SOA had any say in the front bumper covers.. Last time I checked they didn't have a design studio in Cherry Hill, NJ.

 

SOA has not been keen on the Legacy for some time. And a mid-WRX would be set to usurp the GT's market position as a $30k turbo sport model. I don't think Subaru has the sales base or diverse performance reputation to sell both, and I think the Legacy would lose that contest, based on SOA's behavior, and the WRX/STI's name recognition advantage.

 

Last time I looked, LEGACY (as a whole) outsold the WRX, Legacy / Outback make up 40% of SOA's sales.

 

BMW, Cadillac, Pontiac, Acura, Jaguar, Saturn, Lincoln, Saab, Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, and more are producing sporty sedans at various levels of technical proficiency. If Legacy drops from those ranks entirely, rather than just being the unknown player in the market, I think that is the wrong move for Subaru.

 

You didn't name one company that is a stand alone brand, with limited resources.

 

 

When you say: "I'm sure SOA realizes a customer of the WRX is infact different then a Legacy customer." I think you may be right, but that doesn't go to them respecting the Legacy customer, or seeking to retain them over the WRX customer, which already has two turbocharged offerings with a much larger difference than the GT and Spec B Legacys have. SOA hasn't shown that they respect the Legacy customer so far, in their product offering and marketing efforts.

 

And what would make you happy? You won't see a third turbo option on WRX, so don't worry about that, what else? Marketing, They tried like hell when the car launched to market the GT.. It didn't work. So they should spend millions to market a GT Legacy when A) a new version is coming in less then 18 months B) It only sells about 3,000 units annually (Less then what Toyota sells for Camry's in... 3 days, NOT JOKING).

[sickdrift]

SOA has not ignored the Turbo models, the US CUSTOMERS HAVE IGNORED THE LEGACY GT! Don't you get it? If people BUY IT, they'll bring more in. But they're not going to stuff them down dealers throats, in hopes that people will buy them.

 

 

Where are you from? The reason I ask is because in the SOA market I live there is ZERO marketing or push from the dealers or SOA themselves. Why does this matter you may ask; because it directly affects consumer confidence in the product. Because of the lack of marketing people are unfamiliar with the vehicle and as a result uncomfortable in purchasing it. This often comes to a surprise to many enthusiasts, but the majority of the consumers out there do not research as exhaustively as we do, and are much more influenced by the heavy marketing of companies like Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc. Believe it or not that marketing creates familiarity and in turn confidence. Your average buyer would be more likely to buy the Hyundai than the Subaru because they would have never even considered walking onto the Subaru lot. That is SOA’s own fault, bottom line. It’s not the consumer’s responsibility to ensure familiarity with the SOA line.

As smarter people than me have repeatedly said, “SOA = Stupid of America.”

[Viber]

Some people just like to be negative nancy's about everything.

[IwannaSportSedan]

SOA has not ignored the Turbo models, the US CUSTOMERS HAVE IGNORED THE LEGACY GT! Don't you get it? If people BUY IT, they'll bring more in. But they're not going to stuff them down dealers throats, in hopes that people will buy them.

 

US CUSTOMERS HAVE NO IDEA THAT THE LEGACY GT EXISTS. They can't ignore what they never knew about. MOST people who see my car think it is some sort of new WRX STI that they hadn't heard of, or they think it is a Honda, or a BMW, if they aren't well versed.

 

NOBODY guesses that my car is a Legacy, even if they get close by thinking it is a Subaru.

 

Stuffing them down dealer's throats? I worked for 2 years to get into a position to buy my Legacy, after they came out in 2005. I saw my area dealer go from 5 to none during that time, only ONE of which was a GT wagon. Hardly a glut of unsold product, and due to the slow turnover, they didn't replace their allocation, and when I was ready to buy, I couldn't. They didn't have any, didn't want any, and weren't all that interested in helping me find one.

 

They knew that they couldn't move them, and no customers came asking for them, besides me. Customers don't ask or look for products they don't know about. Especially when other sedans are being advertized to them, like camry and accord. Subaru needs to work HARDER than the competition, because they are the underdog. Complaints after complacency from the company is BULLCRAP.

 

For what a half year? The 2010 Legacy is going to be larger then the current one, fitting it inline size wise yet again with the Accord and Camry. A mid level WRX would retain Legacy GT customers who feel the new product is too large.

 

If you think that, then you don't understand the Legacy GT customer, at least not customers like me.

 

I don't want a Camry. I wouldn't drive an Accord. They are ugly, they are too big, they are FWD, and boring as hell. I cross shopped my Legacy with the A4, and the G35. If those are no longer the Legacy GT's competition, if the Accord and Camry are the benchmarks now, then we Legacy fans are all set for a big disappointment.

 

You REALLY don't understand Legacy customers if you think a 30k Impreza is going to retain Legacy owners unsatisfied by a Camrified Legacy.

I am sure as hell not going to buy a WRX for that kind of money, the way it looks, inside and out. I probably would not buy an STI for the price they are asking, either, even if my alternatives are slower cars, like the G35/37.

 

Understand, the success of the original WRX is one reason there even exists a Legacy GT Turbo. And even in it's current form, the WRX still outsells the Legacy GT, even though the Legacy/Outback lineup blows the impreza sales numbers out of the water.

 

No. The Turbocharged Legacy has been around a LOT longer in other countries. The US-offering being credited to the WRX's performance in the US marketplace may be true. But, Subaru hasn't fully learned the lesson. The WRX sold itself, once people knew about it, after a big marketing push, and people starved for a performance Subaru. Market awareness is absolutely necessary if a car like the WRX, or the Legacy GT is to succeed. the original WRX had that, Legacy GT turbo NEVER has in the US.

 

Come on man, the GT wagon lives on as a Outback XT. So it's 2 inches higher... That move makes since, the Legacy Wagon sold poorly, and blurred the line to much between Legacy and Outback. Maybe you didn't notice the Outback sedan has left the building as well.

 

Talk to a few Legacy GT owners around here about that. We have been over this many times before you arrived. The Outback and Legacy may share a chassis and bodywork, but the devil is in the details. And in the details is where Legacy GT wagon drivers don't like the Outback XT.

 

Higher CG, more body roll, different gearing, smaller brakes, more weight, and more body cladding all seem to be recurring themes as to why Legacy GT wagon owners are looking elsewhere, and NOT at the Outback XT.

 

The Legacy GT wagon made up 7% (someone here recently did the math) while it was being offered. Not huge, but not all that insignificant, considering how POORLY the GT was supported overall, and how few GT wagons were actually on dealer lots. Sedans were hard to find, Wagons were downright scarce.

 

Maybe they will, who knows, but you should know some things will not work on scale worth doing in the US... Some people like pink and purple cars, but that doesn't make for a Business case on offering those colors, which would only sell to 5 people nationwide.

 

GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK. THEY CANCELLED RED!!!!!! WHO CANCELS RED ON A SPORT SEDAN????? ON ANY SEDAN????

 

WANNA TALK SALES STATS???? They LOST my sale because of their color choices. I bought USED to get the color I wanted, and it wasn't easy to get it. No stock, and no options means NO FREAKIN' SALE!

 

I can't replace my GARNET RED Legacy with a new Legacy GT, if mine gets damaged, unless I magically come across another used one, and I had to fly half way across the country to buy the one I HAVE!

 

Call me when Subaru's decisions start making sense, and then tell me that they can't make 'perfect' sense.

 

Once again you assume SOA had any say in the front bumper covers.. Last time I checked they didn't have a design studio in Cherry Hill, NJ.

 

SOMEBODY did it. And NO OTHER MARKET has the same blander bumper covers with longer overhangs and bumper beams, and mis-aligned 08 sedan tail lights, and complete and utter lack of a way to replace or upgrade the audio system that the NorAm cars do.

 

If Japan tooled the parts, then they did it at SOA's behest. NO OTHER MARKET IN THE WORLD has the same compromises that the North-American market Legacys have. THE JAPANESE BUILT imported Subarus, like the WRX don't have those compromises, and are much more in line with their ROW alternatives.

 

 

Last time I looked, LEGACY (as a whole) outsold the WRX, Legacy / Outback make up 40% of SOA's sales.

You didn't name one company that is a stand alone brand, with limited resources.

And what would make you happy? You won't see a third turbo option on WRX, so don't worry about that, what else? Marketing, They tried like hell when the car launched to market the GT.. It didn't work. So they should spend millions to market a GT Legacy when A) a new version is coming in less then 18 months B) It only sells about 3,000 units annually (Less then what Toyota sells for Camry's in... 3 days, NOT JOKING).

 

OUTBACK outsells WRX. Legacy is 1/5th the total Legacy/Outback combined sales. That should be obvious from your "3,000 units annually" figure, when Subaru's total annual sales are just under or around 200,000 units. And Outbacks certainly sell better than 3k units per year.

 

Subaru competes with bigger companies, and that isn't going to change, because Subaru is the smallest, besides maybe Mitsubhishi, and they are tanking, too. If Subaru wants to survive, and grow; the "I'm just a little guy" excuse has to be dumped. Subaru will die as a brand if they hide behind that. Compete to survive. That is the way it works.

 

They tried like hell to market the GT, BULLSHIT.

I saw ONE legacy TV spot. It was about cars driving around on their front or rear wheels, and Legacy on all fours. It didn't even MENTION 250 horsepower.

 

There were a couple of magazine ads, but Magazine ads preach to the choir, and most auto-mag readers are already brand loyal.

 

You call that trying like hell??? Not so freakin' much. They have had more than THREE YEARS to try harder. It is a little late now. The new version had better be one HELL of a car, and Subaru had better make sure people know about it. They have no one but themselves to blame for the Legacy's current sales figures,

 

If they think the customers are at fault, then they deserve to fail in this business, because they don't understand business. Customers buy what customers know, and what they want. They can't want something they don't know about.

[Guest]

Talk to a few Legacy GT owners around here about that. We have been over this many times before you arrived. The Outback and Legacy may share a chassis and bodywork, but the devil is in the details. And in the details is where Legacy GT wagon drivers don't like the Outback XT.

 

Higher CG, more body roll, different gearing, smaller brakes, more weight, and more body cladding all seem to be recurring themes as to why Legacy GT wagon owners are looking elsewhere, and NOT at the Outback XT.

 

Exactly. It pisses me off to no avail that these Outback (wanna be) buyers would say there is not enough differences. I bought Legacy wagon and would not have bought Outback wagon. For the reasons stated above. Period.

 

The Legacy GT wagon made up 7% (someone here recently did the math) while it was being offered. Not huge, but not all that insignificant, considering how POORLY the GT was supported overall, and how few GT wagons were actually on dealer lots. Sedans were hard to find, Wagons were downright scarce.

Correction - all Legacy wagons were 4.2% of total sales in 2004, less next year. Not sure how many GTs, but probably a good portion, I more often tend to see turbo wagons than N/A wagons. Again, LGT wagons were not selling well since there was ZERO advertisment for them. And truth is many 05 MT wagons were sitting on dealer lots well into 2006. But again, you can't sell something people do not about.

GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK. THEY CANCELLED RED!!!!!! WHO CANCELS RED ON A SPORT SEDAN????? ON ANY SEDAN????

Canada axed non-SpecB GT (and Outback XT) altogether. I am curious what is gonna happen in the US.

 

EDIT: no red for SpecB, just 2.5i.

[Guest]

Say what?

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1696627

[FameMax]

I don't think Subaru is concerned too much with filling a performance gap as much as a price gap.

 

The WRX / STi and Legacy Gts are marketed to different people.

 

The WRX ranges from $24K to $28K depending the package with or without NAV.

 

The STi is $35K to $39K

 

From a car loan stand point, $35K and $28K is a large amount. Personally I think the STi is a little over priced. I think the Base STi should have 17 inch wheels and be priced around $32K. The 18 inch BBS Package should have heated seats/wipers and recaros along with the Fog lamps it already has for $36K and add NAV for $38K

[mutant 9]

I think we all need to keep in mind to compition that Subaru is now facing. The WRX is underpowerd compard to less expensive cars ie MS3 and the soon to be rally art Lancer. They will need about 250 hp to get back the competitive edge that is slipping away as these new cars keep getting updated.

 

On the Legacy from 243 HP may have been great in 05 but the tides have changed. the new accord and camry at at 270-280. The Infinity G and BMW 335 that we all like to compare the Spec B to are 300. The new iteration of the lgt needs to have at least 270-280 to stay competitive not to mention Subaru needs to start to give customers the option of better technology. Smart keys, and high end audio systems are a must on not only the new legacys but I feel were a major oversight on the new STI and WRX.

 

Subaru has done a good job in the past with staying competive with the compition when it launces new products. However I feel they missed on a few key things with the new WRX and STI. The standard impreza is great. I hope they stay ahead of the game when the new legacy comes around in 09.

[Metal2You]

I think we all need to keep in mind to compition that Subaru is now facing. The WRX is underpowerd compard to less expensive cars ie MS3 and the soon to be rally art Lancer. They will need about 250 hp to get back the competitive edge that is slipping away as these new cars keep getting updated.

 

On the Legacy from 243 HP may have been great in 05 but the tides have changed. the new accord and camry at at 270-280. The Infinity G and BMW 335 that we all like to compare the Spec B to are 300. The new iteration of the lgt needs to have at least 270-280 to stay competitive not to mention Subaru needs to start to give customers the option of better technology. Smart keys, and high end audio systems are a must on not only the new legacys but I feel were a major oversight on the new STI and WRX.

 

Subaru has done a good job in the past with staying competive with the compition when it launces new products. However I feel they missed on a few key things with the new WRX and STI. The standard impreza is great. I hope they stay ahead of the game when the new legacy comes around in 09.

 

I think you're absolutely right. SOA is so far behind I wonder if I'll see another attractive Subaru offering in my lifetime.

[mutant 9]

Regarding your comment about the loooks of the Imprezza I dont think they are all that bad. Actually I thing they do look good, especially the STI.

 

My issue is they use technology that is 5 years old. I have an 03 WRX that I bought new in December of 02. Not much has changed.

 

I am considering the new STI however the content you recieve is missing quite a bit. For a car that can cost $40k it is missing many of the needed features for this price range. There is no audio option, no smart key no sunroof no power seats with memory and wost of all the interior is the same as a standard WRX (except for the STI Wheel, center console and seat coverings) hard cheap plastic everywhere. The care feels like a $25,000 car when you dont concider the engine. This is where I am torn.

 

Look at a car that I think will be a competitor for the STI, the Infiniti EX35 similar price, similar interior space, AWD, 290 HP but it blows the STI away in creature comforts. Great looking interior, 300 watt bose sound system with build in subs and 11 speakers, smart key, memory seat, mirros, steering wheel settings. The content you get is way more than is available on the STI. granted it is not as fast and is not available with a 6 spd manual...

 

I am 28 and the car will be mainly used by my wife as I will be keeping my 03 WRX that we own, so not sure which is the way to go. a $25000 car with a monster engine and better suspension for $35000 or the tad bit slower luxury crossover with the content of a $40000 car for $38000? hard descision.

 

Take a look at www.truedelta.com it will list the true cost of cars based on pricing, features and content pretty interisting stuff.

[Blue GT]

I overall agree with "iwanna" on most of this. SOA just isn't marketing the GT at all otherwise i believe it would at least have some market share in the sport sedan market.

When i bought my GT i wanted an 06-07 limitted WRX (with sunroof/leather/heated seats), try finding one of those slightly used. I knew about the GT being an enthusist, test drove and bought. If subaru marketed it at all it would have attracted buyers looking for what i was; A grown man's WRX.

 

sorry for the run on sentences.

[SLegacy99]

 

My issue is they use technology that is 5 years old. I have an 03 WRX that I bought new in December of 02. Not much has changed.

Uh, the entire engine has.

[john_knoxville]

The Legacy GT wagon made up 7% (someone here recently did the math) while it was being offered.

 

Legacy is 1/5th the total Legacy/Outback combined sales.

 

Correction - all Legacy wagons were 4.2% of total sales in 2004, less next year.

gentlemen -- could you please share where you are getting these figures? b/c for the life of me i have never been able to find a breakdown of sales by model other than "combined total legacy/outback" sales. much appreciated.

 

oh, and yeah, i never would have bought a legacy but for the turbocharged performance, that i first spotted years ago, here (i am also in the choir):

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/family_four_doors/2005_subaru_legacy_car_news

[Guest]

There are thread with sales numbers in the news section. In the thread "No Legacy Wagon" I posted break down of Legacy wagon sales per year.

 

The sales reports separate Legacy sedan, Legacy wagon and Outback sales. Outback sedan is not separated, but then who cares.

[john_knoxville]

The sales reports separate Legacy sedan, Legacy wagon and Outback sales. Outback sedan is not separated, but then who cares.

no separate turbo vs. non-turbo figures then?

 

 

 

 

 

 

↓↓↓ k thanks

[Guest]

^ nope