kevinh Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 OK, in the process of making my LGT faster and tightening up the suspension a bit. I do want to help the car stop a little better. Does, anybody know if the WRX/STI Brembo brakes fit on '05 LGT? Although, it is not a huge difference, LGT's front brakes are 12.3" to the STI's 12.7". That is not a big bump up. But, I am sure the calipers are better though. In the rear, the LGT sports 11.3" and the STI has 12.3", that's better. Or does anyone know a upgrade kit out there? -KevinH KevinH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Tires stop the car. Improve the tires, and the car stops better. More brakes (bigger rotor, more clamping force) will just activate the ABS sooner, rather than stopping the car more quickly. The stock GT brakes can already set off the ABS from now until doomsday. If you want the high style factor, Cobb makes a BBK for the GT, and there's a Brembo setup for the Legacy, that is about $5K. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcgliss Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Tires. Track tires lower lap times because they can take a ton more braking energy than street tires. I can corner about the same on street tires but they just melt and slide in the braking zones. Better brakes pads will not make much difference on the street - but tires will. JC, Chicagoland bassist & opentracker 2005 LGT 5MT Ltd wagon 2005 LGT 5MT Ltd sedan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcgliss Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Tires. Track tires lower lap times because they can take a ton more braking energy than street tires. I can corner about the same on street tires but they just melt and slide in the braking zones . Better brakes pads will not make much difference on the street - but tires will. JC, Chicagoland bassist & opentracker 2005 LGT 5MT Ltd wagon 2005 LGT 5MT Ltd sedan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 The stock brakes have plenty of lock-up power, it's your tires that will make you stop better (shorter). Big Brake Kits (bigger rotors and bigger calipers) only help with heat dissapation to resist fading. Brake Pads help in initial bite (including its size) and also help reduce fading (but be worried of the brake compound, as to each have specific temperature ranges). Better brake fluid helps in pedal feel to know where the point of threshold braking is located for the maximum grip of your tires and have a higher boiling point so that your pedal wont feel like mush. There's plenty of upgrade kits (namely you can use some of the WRX upgrade kits, you just need new caliper brackets and do a little bit of modifications on the dust shield). The rear is still a drum/disc, so you'll have to wait for the rear rotor to be able deal with the e-brake drum system, the WRX drum-hat is smaller in diameter I believe. Cobb has a big brake kit if you really need that kind of bling, (same goes for EndlessUSA). In my opinion for street use, all you need are better pads, better tires, and better brake fluid.. stainless steel lines are just for bling as well. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Jedimaster* Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Tires stop the car. Improve the tires, and the car stops better. More brakes (bigger rotor, more clamping force) will just activate the ABS sooner, rather than stopping the car more quickly. The stock GT brakes can already set off the ABS from now until doomsday. If you want the high style factor, Cobb makes a BBK for the GT, and there's a Brembo setup for the Legacy, that is about $5K. Kevin You forgot to say improve the driver Actually, this was something I thought should be said- one thing they teach you in driving school is to hold that pulsating ABS pedal down- coming from cars that had no ABS in the past, it's still something difficult to get used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 You forgot to say improve the driver I thought everybody got tired of hearing me say that. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Jedimaster* Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Are you kidding me? It's my New Year's Resolution! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karamba Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I never even think about my brakes, which tells me they are performing just fine - stock tires only lasted the trip to the tire shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 After tires, the first things I would try: Better Pads Stainless braided lines (clutch, too) Slotted cryo-rotors. Then perhaps SSBC/Stoptech/Brembo BBKs The stainless lines may help with better feel and modulation, and better initial bite, rather than the rubber lines possibly bulging before the pads really bite down and tires do their jobs. Better feel through the brake pedal may make the car feel better to you, and help you use the brakes with more smoothness and the optimal pedal pressure, and more to their potential before the ABS kicks in... Or I could be way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 You dont want bigger rear rotors without changing the brake bias. You will spin yourself off the road so fast when you apply the brakes, it will feel like sombody pulled the ebrake on you mid turn. Trust me you wont even use the LGT brakes to full capacity unless you are putting major track time on the car. The tires on the other hand get used to full capacity when im pulling out of my driveway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frontrangeSubie Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 OK, in the process of making my LGT faster and tightening up the suspension a bit. I do want to help the car stop a little better. Does, anybody know if the WRX/STI Brembo brakes fit on '05 LGT? Although, it is not a huge difference, LGT's front brakes are 12.3" to the STI's 12.7". That is not a big bump up. But, I am sure the calipers are better though. In the rear, the LGT sports 11.3" and the STI has 12.3", that's better. Or does anyone know a upgrade kit out there? -KevinH I hear your pain....all you will get on this board will be "The Tires SUCK"..coming from others that have come from older cars, or the WRX, or even this might be their first new car. I have always said the brakes are bad on this car.....oh...and I have purchased over 35 new vehicles for myself...thread is in here somewhere.... I changed my tires...and the ABS still is weak....locks up waayyy before impending lock up....Brake feel is mush...have to put much more force than several of my previous cars, before it bites... I'm the lone ranger here on this one....oh...except for Motor Trend which rates the Legacy as the lowest rated stopping distance from 60-0 of any 2004 car.....well...the Legacy beat out the Expedition and the Suburban....lol Flame away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I don't think anyone will flame you, FrontRange. I wonder if cars are different. My brakes are excellent, and I can threshold brake all day. I set my ABS off to make sure it worked, but haven't since that time. And my LGT wagon slows better than my WRX wagon, using the same wheels and tires. I just wonder if your experience isn't attributable to sample-to-sample variance, rather than the LGT's brakes being fundamentally flawed? There's the Motor Trend test, then the Consumer Reports test, which had the LGT within several feet of the other cars (Volvo, Audi and Acura TSX). So again, who someone might cite will depend upon their position on the matter. Have you had your brakes looked at? Because when I brake hard in my car, I get immediate pedal/pad bite, and things start migrating toward the front of the wagon. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frontrangeSubie Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I just wonder if your experience isn't attributable to sample-to-sample variance, rather than the LGT's brakes being fundamentally flawed? Kevin Dont know...could be. I did test drive another Legacy before this one, and the brakes felt the same.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 After tires, the first things I would try: Better Pads Stainless braided lines (clutch, too) Slotted cryo-rotors. Then perhaps SSBC/Stoptech/Brembo BBKs The stainless lines may help with better feel and modulation, and better initial bite, rather than the rubber lines possibly bulging before the pads really bite down and tires do their jobs. Better feel through the brake pedal may make the car feel better to you, and help you use the brakes with more smoothness and the optimal pedal pressure, and more to their potential before the ABS kicks in... Or I could be way off. Dont forget your fluid.. no point of running stock fluid if you are boiling the fluid before the rotors and pads get warm/hot thus ruining the use of the stainless steel brake lines' pedal feel anyways. As for brake bias, I wouldnt worry about that too much (most people wouldnt even know what to do or how to drive with extra rear brake bias anyways let alone disabling ABS and drive it old school). Eventually (and EndlessUSA and COBB already did it) that there's a full front and rear BBKs for the GT. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Good point about the fluid. I guess I took that for granted that putting new lines on, one would replace the fluid with good stuff when re-filling. What do those in the know recommend, Dot 4, dot5, dot 5.1(I think that is what they call the dot5 alternative) Any special brand recommendations for fluids or pads? Hawk, Pagid, EBC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 ATE Super Blue/Yellow fluid.. I am biased to Carbotech pads for now.. I havent tried some of the other Endless Brake Pads. Not too fond of Hawk or EBC... Porterfield adn Pagid are more reputable in my book. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Dont forget your fluid.. no point of running stock fluid if you are boiling the fluid before the rotors and pads get warm/hot thus ruining the use of the stainless steel brake lines' pedal feel anyways.Keefe I was just about to make this point, particularly for FrontRange at 8600 feet, I think you're getting pedal fade, brake issues as a function of altitude, because frankly, at sea-level, these stock brakes are awesome, even on properly inflated stock tires. Find it very hard to lightoff the ABS. Would recommend changing out your fluid for some high performance (read: higher boil temp) brake fluid. SBT - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 ATE Super Blue/Yellow fluid.. I am biased to Carbotech pads for now.. I havent tried some of the other Endless Brake Pads. Not too fond of Hawk or EBC... Porterfield adn Pagid are more reputable in my book. Keefe I'm a SuperBlue fan myself. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I was just about to make this point, particularly for FrontRange at 8600 feet, I think you're getting pedal fade, brake issues as a function of altitude, because frankly, at sea-level, these stock brakes are awesome, even on properly inflated stock tires. Find it very hard to lightoff the ABS. Would recommend changing out your fluid for some high performance (read: higher boil temp) brake fluid. SBT A more likely phenomenon would be the reduction of vaccum brake boost at 8600 feet... there is a significantly less amount of vaccum production at altitude. Less air means there is less you can take away. For those that know how a vaccum boosted brake system works bear with me. A vaccum brake boosting system uses the engine vaccum to create negative pressure on a diaphram type mechanism that aids in the production of brake force. All modern cars have this system nowadays because it would be near impossible to stop efficently without one. Especially with disc brakes as they are not servo assisted like drum brakes. The force that the vaccum assist mechanism makes is proportional to vaccum pressure and diaphram size. You decrease one of these it results in the reduction of brake force. At 8600 feet air is 20 percent less dense. Leading to a 20 percent force reduction that the brake booster makes. This leads me to conclude that if you had drum brakes on a car in the past you would find it easier to stop at altitude compared with disc brakes because drum brakes are not entirely dependent on the vaccum mechanism to produce braking power. Drum brakes are assisted by a servo mechanism that uses the forward motion of your car to force the brake shoes against the drum. However, drum brakes are inferior in that they offer very little fade resistance and less overall braking capability than disc brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frontrangeSubie Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 all great responses....excellent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 another thing to try is a 2 piece rotor ..less weight less rotating mass i took my calipers off last night the caliper is 1.5x heavier than a wrx caliper.. its huge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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