why do we justify re- engineering a new car/part

[gtguy]

Im not trying to insult anyone. This problem is not going to cause me to sell my car or not by the car in the first place. My point was why cant we admit at times that something needs to be addressed at the factory and not at the owner level. Why would any company improve there product if the owners were fine with fixing the faults themselves? Just because a comment is critical does not make you the problem.

 

No worries, it's just that "problems" are individual matters of perspective. Someone who wears jeans, for example, would find the key fob buttons a bother. Someone who wears loose-fitting dress pants, or puts the key in a coat pocket, wouldn't even know there was a problem.

 

So there's a fundamental fallacy in assuming that everyone has the same problems, even if they have the same vehicle. One guy says the ABS sucks, another guy says his ABS hasn't ever been triggered, which rocks. See what I mean?

 

 

 

Kevin

[sduford]

It sounds to me like you should have bought something else. Not flaming you here. Personally, this is the nicest car I've ever owned and there are things that could be improved, but the positives FAR outweigh the negatives for me.

And that is exactly what I said, I still love the car, but I find it frustrating that Subaru didn't spend a little more attention to details. I'm not asking them to spend a bunch more money in parts on the car, I'm just saying they did a lot of dumb little things that didn't need to be done.

 

I guess it's a love-hate relationship. There is nothing else that has the same mix of performance, utility, and bad-weather/offroad capability. Except perhaps for a Porsche Cayenne!

 

But at the same time, I find it has a lot of rough edges, the kind of things you wouldn't even find on a run of the mill Toyota.

 

Sly

[sduford]

I have to agree with Jedimaster on this one. Sounds like some other car company should have gotten your money. There is nothing about my Legacy GT wagon that disappoints me, other than that it isn't invisible to police radar, so I have to exercise some caution.

 

Besides, for every person vexed by things such as the remote, there's one (such as I) who isn't, and who doesn't have problems with any of the things on that list, because:

 

My key fob is fine.

I roll my windows up before shutting off the motor.

Everything I need is lighted just fine.

Plenty of light in the car for me.

I hate power seats.

The stereo sounds great to these audiophile ears, and I would never upgrade a car stereo. Why?

The tires are fine for 99% of the car's prospective owners.

My ABS has never gone off...have to check that one out.

My windshield is just fine. Most people's are.

This paint was a good wax (Griot's Best of Show) away from metallic-hued beauty.

My clutch doesn't stink (this might be a user issue).

Drove a base Outback, and didn't notice any damping issues. The car is undersprung, but not underdamped.

 

See what I mean? A car's deficiencies are all a matter of perspective.

 

What's even more interesting is that people have different views of mods. Some, such as power or suspension mods, are cool. Others, such as the "rubber bumper" key fob mod, mean that Subaru sucks. I don't get it.

 

Kevin

Thanks for sharing that Kevin, but I think you are totally missing the point. And I don't necessary find all of them to be problems myself.

 

Also, the fact that you may be happy with any of these "problems" doesn't mean they are not legitimate problems. Lots of people are just fine driving Sunfires, does that make it a good, safe and comfortable car?

 

I will most definitely call you out on the tires though. While people may *think* they are fine, they will leave you grossly short-changed in emergency situations where the tire is not capable of giving you that extra little bit that may save your life some day. I'm personally amazed to see most people on the amrket buying the cheapest and longest lasting tires they can find, with no other considerations. This is really weird when you think that those 4 little patches of rubber between you and the road are the single most important safety factor. The funny thing is that many of those same pople will pay a lot of attention to crash tests and air bag. (WTF)

 

And the original poster's point was not that because of a stupid keyfob design Subaru sucks. The point was why is it that Subaru owners all seem to think it's normal to have all these little stupid quirks and we should just be happy about them? or fix them ourselves? Why do we get chastised every time we critique something sutpid that Subaru has done?

[sduford]

Im not trying to insult anyone. This problem is not going to cause me to sell my car or not by the car in the first place. My point was why cant we admit at times that something needs to be addressed at the factory and not at the owner level. Why would any company improve there product if the owners were fine with fixing the faults themselves? Just because a comment is critical does not make you the problem.

Right on Franklin, couldn't agree more. I've been very critical of the ACC system and the seats myself, and I get jumped on every time. And there is always a jack ass who comes out and in essence says "the ACC works fine for me, so it must be perfect and you must be stupid and you don't deserve to drive a Subaru"

 

Of course not everyone will agree that something is a problem. Doesn't make it any less legitimate though.

[racerdave]

I agree.. the more you complain, the better chance you have at getting the factory to change. Now, it's no guarantee that they will change anything, but if you say nothing, well then you'll get nothing as well.

[gtguy]

Thanks for sharing that Kevin, but I think you are totally missing the point. And I don't necessary find all of them to be problems myself.

 

Also, the fact that you may be happy with any of these "problems" doesn't mean they are not legitimate problems. Lots of people are just fine driving Sunfires, does that make it a good, safe and comfortable car?

 

I will most definitely call you out on the tires though. While people may *think* they are fine, they will leave you grossly short-changed in emergency situations where the tire is not capable of giving you that extra little bit that may save your life some day. I'm personally amazed to see most people on the amrket buying the cheapest and longest lasting tires they can find, with no other considerations. This is really weird when you think that those 4 little patches of rubber between you and the road are the single most important safety factor. The funny thing is that many of those same pople will pay a lot of attention to crash tests and air bag. (WTF)

 

And the original poster's point was not that because of a stupid keyfob design Subaru sucks. The point was why is it that Subaru owners all seem to think it's normal to have all these little stupid quirks and we should just be happy about them? or fix them ourselves? Why do we get chastised every time we critique something sutpid that Subaru has done?

 

But my whole point is that one person's problems are not another person's. It isn't that I'm happy with the problems, it's that for me, they aren't problems. If you never find the limits of the tires, for example, then the RE92s are just fine. And one man's quirks are another man's features. It's all perspective, is my sole point.

 

There's also message board hysteria. Think of the thousands of Legacy sedans out there. One or two people have had cracked windshields, and suddenly it's a "flaw." What about all of the people who haven't had a cracked windshield? The WRX "ABS defect" thread was about a zillion pages long, when the number of people who actually experienced the problem was significantly less.

 

Finally, I don't think that anyone is chastising anyone. I would, however, argue that people who go after Subaru for "something stupid that they have done" are often defensive about their point, and misconstrue mere counterpoint as chastisement. "You don't agree? What's your problem, fanboy?"

 

Kevin

[RoundBoy]

But my whole point is that one person's problems are not another person's. It isn't that I'm happy with the problems, it's that for me, they aren't problems. If you never find the limits of the tires, for example, then the RE92s are just fine. And one man's quirks are another man's features. It's all perspective, is my sole point.

 

There's also message board hysteria. Think of the thousands of Legacy sedans out there. One or two people have had cracked windshields, and suddenly it's a "flaw." What about all of the people who haven't had a cracked windshield? The WRX "ABS defect" thread was about a zillion pages long, when the number of people who actually experienced the problem was significantly less.

 

Finally, I don't think that anyone is chastising anyone. I would, however, argue that people who go after Subaru for "something stupid that they have done" are often defensive about their point, and misconstrue mere counterpoint as chastisement. "You don't agree? What's your problem, fanboy?"

 

Kevin

 

Quoted... because this man speaks the truth.

 

I have never had the remote go off when i didn't intend it to in my pants, etc.

 

I have never felt the limits of my tires, and I *do* drive like a madman some(most) times.

 

missing features of this car that are standard on others is not a big deal.. if they were that importiant.. i would have bought the *other* car. i love my car, and every aspect of it.

 

The quirks i have with this car are minor... and i will be addressing tehm w/ a new uppipe, and rear sway bar..

 

there has been ONE windshield crack person... and many of the drifiting / fluid prolems can probably be attributed to a bad 'finish' department at the factory or dealer.

 

reading this site makes me wonder sometimes if I bought a bad year (wait until 06?) but then i remind myself that i have a kick ass car... and it can only get better. I bought it knowing the features with both eyes open...

[offthacliff]

Wow descussion..... This is how we arrive at awnsers, change and fix problems. The problem is we find the "BUGS" and the next model gets the fix. This is how it is with all product, be it a computer program,a cell phone, or a car. This is a totaly redesigned Legacy, it will have bugs, thats the drawback of purchacing a first year model, I bought an 2000XTERRA in '99, the first year it arrived, the bang for the buck was awsome, Ladderbox "real SUV frame, with Huge rubber damppening bushings, Limeted slip, 4x4, nice v6, stadium seating ect.... I found some bugs, but overall I was happy with such a truck. Still, the next year Nissan fixed bugs and added a supercharger to the Xterra, #$%^&*

As for the '05LGT; I am with JedI on this one too, For me the good far outweighs the bad! I am still totaly stock, but by far, this is the best performing car I have ever owned, The Leather is nicer than my Accord EX,

The FOB issue; It is falwed in design, I have armed and disarmed while washing the car, bending and sqatting. I havn't, just walking around the car.

-Now that I am aware or the FOB, I hold it in my hand until I get out of range. Also, It is a good Idea to have your keys out as you approach, as well, especially for women; Furthermore, if held properly the panic butten can be depressed and the Key yielded as a defensive wepon. As for the Tires and brakes, I had some one get over on me today on I836, I was going 80-90 and she (Tonta) was doing mabe 60... The breaks worked, I even felt ABS work, and the Tires gripped just fine.... For everyday (semi/agressive) Driving, the tires are great. I dont live where it snows and dont plan on ever. For me the AC works great, I do ;however, turn it on by hitting the (-)fan button so the the ac is in manal and low fan, then I adjust my temp and my girl adjusts her temp. If I were going on a long drive I might use climatCtrl. I love the OB Black Pearl paint with the metalic flake, I am a little scared that it is easly dammaged, not good for a rally inspired car, for now I will baby it!

I cant wait to get my AP, turboback, UP, and some "Hidden Guages". ZZZZZZZ.....

And she makes my hart beat fast now!

[kage]

It's all a matter of trade-offs. The windshield is a good example. The Legacy windshield is probably somewhat more prone to cracking/dings than say a Honda Accord. Is this due to inferior glass? Perhaps, but I don't think so. I've noticed that Subarus tend to have a more upright windshield than other Japanese cars. I believe this is a consequence of the packaging of the car's drivetrain. Could they use thicker glass? Of course. But then when you did crack it, the windshield would cost even more to replace, and someone would bitch about that instead. I'm sure there are people on a Honda board right now complaining about how hard it is to clean the windshield and dash, because of the steep angle.

 

The key fob is the same type of thing. The key fob is a last minute substitution by SOA to meet a price point. Many of you would probably be willing to pay $100 more to have the cool JDM key with the remote built in. You may also be okay with paying another $150 for the cool seat releases in the JDM wagon. How about another $1500 for the Mackintosh stereo (well worth it from what Anthony at ApexJapan stated)? The point is that SOA had a price point goal to meet based on the USDM, because there are lots of people who look at a $30,000 Subaru and say "why is it so much? It's just a Subaru."

 

That being said, I do think there's a bit of a design flaw with the fob. Although a particular person, or persons may not experience the issue, I don't think it's unreasonable for an owner to want to put their keys in their jeans pockets. This is the sort of usage that a good engineer has in mind when he/she designs a product. Having a key fob that can't withstand a jeans pocket is like having a swimsuit that dissolves in salt water. Some people would say: "Duh, just swim in the pool." or "Wear your other swimsuit." Both are reasonable answers, but don't address the underlying issue with the product itself.

 

However on a final note, Kevin makes a good point about message board hysteria. Just because a person (or even several people) think that a product is missing "vital" features, doesn't make it so. The market decides what is and isn't a viable product, and overall I'd say the Legacy has received a strong thumbs up from the US market. Does that mean there isn't room for improvement? Absolutely not. But it becomes very much a glass is half empty vs. glass is half full sort of argument.

[sduford]

Of course most of these small issues are a matter of taste/preference/expectations/previous experience, but that doesn't mean Subaru couldn't have done a better job at little or no extra expense.

 

The key fob is a minor thing, and whether or not you've personaly had problems with it, it is an easily demosntratable fact that the buttons are overly sensitive and can be pressed inadvertantly. Not a big issue, but why didn't Subaru do it right when it wouldn't have cost any more money?

 

The auto/up or residual power thing is no big deal, granted, and yeah, I just close my windows before I shut down too (duh! very smart comment that was). But that is one of those nice little convenience things that most of Subaru's competitors are putting in their cars, even below this price point, and would require probably 50 cents worth of parts to do right. Big deal? no. Something everybody misses? no. But still something that one is entitled to expect in a car of this class. This is the kind of attention to details that the market expects at this price point.

 

Board Hysteria over the windshield? I never saw any hysteria. I'm the one who started that because my windshield cracked overnight from end to end from a surprisingly small, impossible to notice ding. I found that surprising and when I showed it to an auto glass expert, he expressed the opinion that this windshield was unusually thin. Does that mean that every owner will have a cracked windshield? of course not. But it does point to a potential weakness in this car. As I recall, this was all discussed in a cool-headed manner and there was no hysteria involved.

 

As for the tires, there is plenty of evidence from large numbers of people on many different kinds of boards and from many reviews and ratings that they are crap and I personally found that out the first time I had to do an emergency stop on wet pavement. They are crap, and the fact that some people don't notice doesn't change that fact. If you don't think they are crap then you plain simply have lower expectations then the average owner. If Subaru was truly concerned about our safety (and not just safety marketing), then they would put a better tire on these performance machines.

[Flo4Legacy]

 

I guess it's a love-hate relationship. There is nothing else that has the same mix of performance, utility, and bad-weather/offroad capability. Except perhaps for a Porsche Cayenne!

 

Sly

That's great!

 

A certain car is always a compromise. Every feature has pro and contra arguements. Why are there several models and brands? Because there are so many possible combinations. And the demands of us customers are so many and very different.

 

About the Porsche Cayenne? What about price and mileage? That personally bounces me very quickly back to the Legacy/Outback. For others the car can't be expensive enough and the mileage is nothing to worry about. But the brand image is important for them.

 

And there will always be flaws that can be improved. Fortunaley there are really no major flaws to be worried about (till now). The other things are very minor and - as Kevin stated - are a result of personal taste/opinion.

 

By the way, I am really happy with the key (because it is the JDM version)

[Colonel Angus]

No worries, it's just that "problems" are individual matters of perspective. Someone who wears jeans, for example, would find the key fob buttons a bother. Someone who wears loose-fitting dress pants, or puts the key in a coat pocket, wouldn't even know there was a problem.

 

So there's a fundamental fallacy in assuming that everyone has the same problems, even if they have the same vehicle. One guy says the ABS sucks, another guy says his ABS hasn't ever been triggered, which rocks. See what I mean?

 

 

 

Kevin

 

bingo.

[sduford]

There is a serious flaw in that argument: if he hasn't even triggered his ABS yet, how can he know if the ABS works well or not?

 

I totally agree that a lot of these "problems" are just a matter of opinion. But, I think that more often then not, it is simply because some folks have lower expectations and that doesn't mean that does with higher expectations are wrong and shouldn't be complaining about them. The key fob is a great example: it is very easy to demonstrate that the keys are more sensitive then they should be, yet many people are OK with that.

 

Also, you don't need to have EVERYONE think it is a problem for it to be a legitimate problem. Take the ACC for example, I have a poll on that going on right now, and it shows that a full 35% of respondents are unhappy with it. So you can say, "see, 65% of people are happy, so it must be a good design!"

 

But anyone who has worked in human/machine design will disagree. The ACC is a "usability" feature, a convenience, something that is supposed to make life easier and shouldn't require "training". So as such, this ACC is a bad design. It works, but it is still a poor design, and there is no point in coming back and saying "it works for me". The hallmark of a good design is that it will be universally recognised as such. The iPod is a great example of that.

 

Another good example is Volvo seats. Yes you can find a few people who don't like them, but something like 99% of people find them very comfortable. It is just a fact of life that it is impossible to be ergonomically correct for everybody, but a good design will be correct for the 97 percentile of the population. If the design is only correct for the 60 or 70 percentile of the population, then it is not a very good design.

[gtguy]

There is a serious flaw in that argument: if he hasn't even triggered his ABS yet, how can he know if the ABS works well or not?

 

I totally agree that a lot of these "problems" are just a matter of opinion. But, I think that more often then not, it is simply because some folks have lower expectations and that doesn't mean that does with higher expectations are wrong and shouldn't be complaining about them. The key fob is a great example: it is very easy to demonstrate that the keys are more sensitive then they should be, yet many people are OK with that.

 

Also, you don't need to have EVERYONE think it is a problem for it to be a legitimate problem. Take the ACC for example, I have a poll on that going on right now, and it shows that a full 35% of respondents are unhappy with it. So you can say, "see, 65% of people are happy, so it must be a good design!"

 

But anyone who has worked in human/machine design will disagree. The ACC is a "usability" feature, a convenience, something that is supposed to make life easier and shouldn't require "training". So as such, this ACC is a bad design. It works, but it is still a poor design, and there is no point in coming back and saying "it works for me". The hallmark of a good design is that it will be universally recognised as such. The iPod is a great example of that.

 

Another good example is Volvo seats. Yes you can find a few people who don't like them, but something like 99% of people find them very comfortable. It is just a fact of life that it is impossible to be ergonomically correct for everybody, but a good design will be correct for the 97 percentile of the population. If the design is only correct for the 60 or 70 percentile of the population, then it is not a very good design.

 

Because "he," that is me, knows how to threshold brake, so his ABS never goes off, unless "he" deliberately activates it, to make sure it works. The Legacy's ABS is just fine.

 

And please, don't trot out the "lower expectations" argument in defense of people demanding more. That's easy, and misses the point, which I have already stated. It is exceedingly doubtful that my expectations, or those of any other driver who doesn't find particular things an issue, are any lower than anyone else's. They are just different. The "lower expectations" argument presumes that "If I'm right, then everyone else is wrong," which isn't always the case. Sometimes, nobody's right and nobody's wrong, and things simply are as they are.

 

If only 35% of people on a message board (who bothered to respond) find the ACC a difficulty, Subaru shouldn't be too worried, as message boards nitpick and quibble. That's a lot of what they do.

 

Kevin

[sduford]

Because "he," that is me, knows how to threshold brake, so his ABS never goes off, unless "he" deliberately activates it, to make sure it works. The Legacy's ABS is just fine.

 

If only 35% of people on a message board (who bothered to respond) find the ACC a difficulty, Subaru shouldn't be too worried, as message boards nitpick and quibble. That's a lot of what they do.

 

Kevin

Bu that is the whole point of ABS: so the average Joe, who doesn't have performance driving skills can do "threshold braking". Good for you if you can do that on slippery surfaces and/or emergency situation, but the majority of drivers can't and that is what ABS was invented for. I personnaly suspect Subaru borrowed the ABS from GM, because I find that it works just as well as it does on the rental Sunfires I sometimes get stuck with. I *KONW* that the ABS on my last 3 cars (Highlander, Volvo 850, Volks Passat) were much better than this one. And I have seen professional car reviewers complain about the ABS too, but I guess they must be wrong right?

 

As for the message board argument, I would venture to say that the average member of this board, being a car enthiusiast, is a lot smarter about the car's features then the average Joe. So I argue that the population at large probably has more problems with the ACC then the members of this board. My conversations with my dealer bears that out: they get tons of people complaining about it or asking for help because they don't understand it (or think they don't since it's not doing what they think it should). Also, everyone that I know or have chatted with, that has experienced a good ACC system before thinks this one is bad, so don't tell me lower expectations are not at play here. Same goes for the tires, the ABS, the seats, and the key fob.

 

I'm glad you're completely happy with your car, but please don't denigrate those who have a few issues with it. And when someone talks badly about your car, don't take it as if they were attacking your child or your intelligence.

[sduford]

The "lower expectations" argument presumes that "If I'm right, then everyone else is wrong," which isn't always the case. Sometimes, nobody's right and nobody's wrong, and things simply are as they are.

 

Kevin

That is totally wrong. Lower expectations doesn't mean anybody is wrong, it just means what it means, lower expectations. In other words, what is OK for one person is not for another. Doesn't mean anybody is wrong or right, just diifferent. Doesn't mean that you are wrong to think the ABS is OK, or that I am wrong thinking it is weak. It is OK for you, but it is weak for me. Why do I think it is weak? Because I have experienced better ABS systems before.

 

You're the one who is trying to tell me that I am wrong to think the ABS is weak.

 

The point I was trying to make, obviously not very successfully, is that if a significant percentage of the population has a problem with something, then it is at the very least a weak design, if not a bad one, and it is costing Subaru some sales.

[gtguy]

That is totally wrong. Lower expectations doesn't mean anybody is wrong, it just means what it means, lower expectations. In other words, what is OK for one person is not for another. Doesn't mean anybody is wrong or right, just diifferent. Doesn't mean that you are wrong to think the ABS is OK, or that I am wrong thinking it is weak. It is OK for you, but it is weak for me. Why do I think it is weak? Because I have experienced better ABS systems before.

 

You're the one who is trying to tell me that I am wrong to think the ABS is weak.

 

The point I was trying to make, obviously not very successfully, is that if a significant percentage of the population has a problem with something, then it is at the very least a weak design, if not a bad one, and it is costing Subaru some sales.

 

As is usual with message board contentiousness, I give up. Subaru sucks, and there's a laundry list of things limiting the greatness of the Legacy. You're absolutely right.

 

Kevin

[sduford]

Thanks for giving in, wasn't so hard now was it?

 

But seriously, I never said it sucked. I Think it's an excellent car, but it has many flaws and weaknesses that keep it just short of greatness. Most of these would be just fine on a cheaper car, but not on a car of this class. I think it is part of the problem: it is so close to greatness it makes the flaws even more glaring.

 

The Subaritsi seems to think that you cannot like your car and have issues with it at the same time, or worse, that it is blasphemy to criticise it. I just don't get that.

 

I like a good argument though

[Euclid]

The point I was trying to make, obviously not very successfully, is that if a significant percentage of the population has a problem with something, then it is at the very least a weak design, if not a bad one, and it is costing Subaru some sales.

 

 

I'm sorry, but a few people on a message board doesn't constitute a "significant percentage".

[sduford]

I'm sorry, but a few people on a message board doesn't constitute a "significant percentage".

I agree, but what is you point?

 

Don't you hear all the people complaining all over the place about the tires and brakes and the ACC? I do.

 

The only thing in question, is what that percentage is, or what constitutes a "significant" percentage.

[Guest *Jedimaster*]

Eleventy billion.

 

Now one thing that pisses me off is when I bought my car, they never asked if I wanted a car that had a message board with so much drama

[Euclid]

I agree, but what is you point?

 

Don't you hear all the people complaining all over the place about the tires and brakes and the ACC? I do.

 

The only thing in question, is what that percentage is, or what constitutes a "significant" percentage.

 

The point is, the actual number of 05' legacy owners out there vs the actual number of owners who know about and/or post on this board vs the number of people on this board who have problems with these things is probably a very very small overall percentage.

 

I do see all the threads about the tires, brakes and ACC. But you know what, I don't think those are problems with the car. They are "problems" because some owners were hoping for one thing and got something else, so now it's a problem because they don't like it. I don't like the tires the car came with, but that's hardly a problem with the car. I think the brakes do a fine job, I'm glad the ABS isn't so sensitive. It's a performance car afterall, and having ultra sensitive ABS wouldn't be good for performance driving. The ACC works fine for me. Granted I've never owned another car with an auto climate control, so for me it's just fine.

[sduford]

You are correct, that represents a small percentage.

 

But I also heare complaints from friends and lcoal club members and my dealer gets a lot of complaints, so I think the percentage is significant, and I think Subaru would do so much better if they only paid a little bit more attention to a few things.

 

But since car rags and reviewers are stepping over each-other to declare it the best of its class and the car is flying off the lots so fast that dealers are not forced to sell them below invoice, then all of us who have gripes with it must be just a bunch of whiners

 

I think the reviews, especially the head-to-head comparos are very telling. They pretty much all like the car and it's performance, but it almost always falls just short of being the best. My opinion is that with better tires, and with a bit more attention to details, the car would trounce the competition.

[franklin]

That was part of what I was trying to point out. Overall the car was the best value for my hard earned money BUT if they continue to fine tune the details it could get better. EG The size of the brake rotors for this car are huge-money was spent-but the braking results are below average. Fine tuning - details make the difference. Being critical of areas of underperformance and wanting them addressed is ok. Improving the car is the goal -right?

[sduford]

Absolutely!

 

So far I'm happy enough that I would buy another one, but I've only had it for 3 months, so the jury is still out. I would be a very happy camper if they fix my main gripes by the time I'm ready to buy another one in 4 years.