Cusco front lower brace for Legacy

[Guest turboman]

[quote name='BoxerGT2.5']All the street tests indicate the GT's skidpad numbers are near .81. Just putting better street tires on the car would put the GT in ranges that you stated wouldn't happen. But I understand what your saying. I put the underbrace on to help with turn in and a more solid feel upfront. :)[/QUOTE] Your numbers are in the ball game. Suggestion..if you want more responsive turn in go to a bigger rear sway and align the front with about 2mm toe OUT (and the above mentioned negative camber) and the rear run 2mm toe IN or ZERO. You'll get turn-in so fast it'll turn your hair white. This is more of a Solo2 alignment and it's a bit touchy for the street. The front end will follow every bump and dip. Unless you're real good... By the way I ran Azenis Sports on my WRX all year. I hit over .90G on my G-Meter on a banked on ramp. No sliding either front or rear. My wife was along and she didn't even scream.

[BoxerGT2.5]

[quote name='turboman']Your numbers are in the ball game. Suggestion..if you want more responsive turn in go to a bigger rear sway and align the front with about 2mm toe IN (and the above mentioned negative camber) and the rear run 2mm toe OUT. You'll get turn-in so fast it'll turn your hair white. This is more of a Solo2 alignment and it's a bit touchy for the street. Unless you're real good... By the way I ran Azenis Sports on my WRX all year. I hit over .90G on my G-Meter on a banked on ramp. No sliding either front or rear. My wife was along and she didn't even scream.[/QUOTE] I have done larger sways and plan on getting a performance alignment when the weather gets a little less nasty. I don't plan on the GT to be able to hit the numbers on the skid pad like my Rx-8 can. :)

[firedawgs]

I had the cusco lower brace on my04 WRX. I was very pleased with it. Where and how much did you get the legacy frame brace???

[BoxerGT2.5]

[quote name='firedawgs']I had the cusco lower brace on my04 WRX. I was very pleased with it. Where and how much did you get the legacy frame brace???[/QUOTE] Myles at racecomp. $171 and some very fast shipping!!!!!!!

[Xenonk]

[quote name='turboman']I don't see any need for front end chassis bracing if running street tires. You'll never be able to pull a G-loading high enough to twist the chassis. [/QUOTE] As for bracing in addition to just "street" tires, I can still justify it because .8 gs with all that weight on the car that is NOT lateral will twist or lift something (see some of my pictures of me autocrossing the car BEFORE I added my mods). The inside rear end wouldn't lift as much as the inside front. And you can tell the GT is 3 wheeling especially for the banked/camber turns. Adding a brace will help (provided it's in the right location). The car isn't seam-welded, so yes, it will flex still. A crash test doesnt mean that the car is strong, it simply states that the passengers in the car are not crumpled up like pieces of paper and turn into mush. It doesnt mean the car will survive the accident (see crumple zones). Sometimes you have to make the car mushy like a sponge to absorb the impact at certain critical locations and distribute the force equally throughout the car. Food For Thought, Keefe

[Guest *Jedimaster*]

[quote name='BoxerGT2.5']Myles at racecomp. $171 and some very fast shipping!!!!!!![/QUOTE] Is that for the front and the rear both?

[Xenonk]

Front only I believe. Keefe

[Guest turboman]

[quote name='Xenonk']As for bracing in addition to just "street" tires, I can still justify it because .8 gs with all that weight on the car that is NOT lateral will twist or lift something (see some of my pictures of me autocrossing the car BEFORE I added my mods). The inside rear end wouldn't lift as much as the inside front. And you can tell the GT is 3 wheeling especially for the banked/camber turns. Adding a brace will help (provided it's in the right location). The car isn't seam-welded, so yes, it will flex still. A crash test doesnt mean that the car is strong, it simply states that the passengers in the car are not crumpled up like pieces of paper and turn into mush. It doesnt mean the car will survive the accident (see crumple zones). Sometimes you have to make the car mushy like a sponge to absorb the impact at certain critical locations and distribute the force equally throughout the car. Food For Thought, Keefe[/QUOTE] I'd bet that with a stiffer front subframe you get MORE tire "lifting" instead of less. A sway bar will REDUCE lift because the other side will resist it. It's hard for me to explain... Ever notice pro-series BMW's (just one example) at corner apexes. The inside front wheel can be 4"-5" in the air. And these cars have every bracing they can think of. Including a full roll cage from front to rear that braces everything. There's nothing inherently bad about lifting the inside wheel because that tire is doing virtually nothing anyway. If anything, it shows that the subframe is stiff enough to lift it (a good thing) and the outside tire is fully loaded and really working.. Only exception (a bad thing) is when a rear drive car lifts the inside rear wheel and it doesn't have any kind of limited slip. Does anybody know how much negative camber can be obtained without aftermarket offset bolts? TireRack tells me WRX bolts won't work on Legacys. :cool:

[Xenonk]

A sway bar is only in effect due to opposing forces (think of it as transferring the load from the outside wheels to the inside to reduce lift). BUT if the corner forces are too much that the car will lift the inside anyway, then it renders the sway bar useless. There's nothing super wrong with lifting from an R&D standpoint, but to get the most traction out of your car is to rely on all 4 wheels vs. 2 on the outside. So in that perspective, you want as much grip as flat as perpendicular to the road as you can get (aka camber). Any case, the idea is to have all these lateral support bars to help transfer some of the forces and loads to the inside tires to allow 4 tires to work together for grip rather than 2 tires on the outside for grip. BMW M3s GTRs lift like that because the engineering behind it can isolate the actual suspension work to the shocks, springs and other ACTIVE suspension parts (aka moving parts) where the passive (like seam welds, rollcages and bars, stuff that dont move independent from the rest of the car's chassis) helps the isolation. The BMWs can lift like that because the car is: -Balanced closer to 50/50 weight distribution -It's under acceleration -The alignment specs are set that it gets soo much grip from the outside tires -The chassis is stiff enough to allow the shocks and springs do their work As for negative camber on the GT, the front is the only part you can adjust, the rear as little or no adjustment (in stock form of course). Expect to get about -1.2 degrees to -1.5 degrees of camber all the way around (depending if you just dropped the car using just STi springs). I think the reason why Tirerack said WRX bolts wont work is because of the diameter of the bolt along with the lobe being different (eventhough I do remember the bolthead are both 19mm). I know WRX rear camber bolts dont work on the GT's rear because it's a totally different suspension design. You would need adjustable lateral links (similar to Cusco, Tein, Whiteline, or any other dual adjustable tie-rod type lateral link), the STi Pink lateral links from an Impreza will not work since there the GT has a bumpstop built into the 2nd rear lateral link arm. With camber plates however, I managed to squeeze out as much as -4.0 in the front and you can fiddle the rear to get it down to -2.0 with adjusting the ride height.. Keefe

[Guest turboman]

Keefe...From your answer it appears you have been soloing a Legacy? Or a WRX? Is it worth going to the expense with the Legacy. How is it classed? It's an awfully big car (of course, course design has opened up so much in recent years), actually probably not that much bigger than an F-body GM. Don't feel like comparing size specs right now, but I will soon. Can a Legacy be competitve? Would be kinda fun to run a few. Since my heart attack and complications walking the course several times has been my biggest obstacle. Maybe there's hope of exercising and getting back in condition. ...anyway. We all have problems. Pleasant dueling with you. If I get in a bind locating suspension bit I'll give you a PM if you won't mind. Have a nice week. Jim Pagel ;)

[Xenonk]

Yes, I run Solo2 for the GT and the WRX as well as doing some practice laps at the local (to me) tracks like Summit Point Raceway and VIR (Virginia International Raceway). Both cars in DS, ESP, and the difference is STX for WRX and STU for GT. It's fun, nothing wrong finishing 2nd in the Subaru Challenge in the SCCA-WDCR region. Although it's going to be hard to keep up with the STi in STU class, but I am sure with a few more mods, and me cleaning up the driving, I am sure I will be one tough guy to beat. The GT will have to overcome its own bloodline first, the STi. The reall fun is really going to NASA USTCC racing where the GT would shine cuz of its dimensions matching very close to a BMW E36 M3. It's a road car, not a rally car, so it should shine there. Heck, they let the BMW 325s and 328s run with the Realtime Acura TSXs, and I havent seen that many STis running in that series. I think once you strip out the GT and prepare the car to a full out race car with seam-welding and the such, it would be very competitive. Keefe

[iamboon]

final install the lower brace... easy mod! look forward to driving in the am!

[rjoeser]

I have both front and rear cusco braces. Both went on the car at the same time so it is hard to say which had the biggest impact. But, I notice a huge decrease in tail end movement when mashing on brakes to enter a corner. I feel much more confident going into corners at speed.

 

 

RJO

[iamboon]

i have to order the rears next! With the fronts installed the car handles much better around the corners!

[team23jordan]

i'll be ordering front and lower braces soon!!

[itsme]

Could you guys please give me some input. I have a '05 5mt LGT wagon and I don't race the car but I would like it to handle better because our group goes on canyon runs and I want the best out of my car. I already put on wheels and tires, Whiteline front and rear adj. bars, and H-tech springs. I have SuperPro poly LCA Fulcrum busing on the way and I'm about to order the Cobb or AVO rear sway bracket. I looks like the front and rear lower control braces would be the last thing to do before I need new struts. With my setup is the lower braces help much? Will in make it too harsh for the street? I have the power side covered. I have a TDC stg 1 map and I just got my stage 2 parts and TDC map to put on. thanks for any input.

[sutter2k]

^

harshness?=Not so much harshness, no regrets

Help=yes

much?=not a night an day thing

[Guest]

Define "help". I am interested in these braces as well.

[itsme]

So with the other stuff I have done so far do you guys think it will be a good match?

[FPerron]

In the original post, gtguy mentions increased understeer after installing the front brace only. Isn't this to be expected - like installing a stiffer front sway bar? I'm wondering if installing both front and rear braces would result in more neutral handling.

[sirsimon]

In the original post, gtguy mentions increased understeer after installing the front brace only. Isn't this to be expected - like installing a stiffer front sway bar? I'm wondering if installing both front and rear braces would result in more neutral handling.

 

I have both - and installed them at separate times: front first, then the rear.

 

I would say that, overall, you are correct. The pair does seem to be more neutral than just having the front.