Lousy Brakes

[frontrangeSubie]

Got my new copy of Motor Trend in the mail today....of course the Chrysler 300 won Car of the Year (doesn't surprise me...nice car)....The Legacy GT Sedan was one of 20 new cars that was in the running....it didn't make the top ten in the finals...but it received a fairly nice blurb about it's sportiness and engine. Point is....the Legacy's brakes are horrible....it rated dead last in the 20 cars tested (by a long shot...9 feet) in braking from 60 mph to 0, but was rated in the middle of the pack in the slalom and figure 8 course. So...the tires aren't the problem.... I looked at the back of the magazine of every car that Motor Trend has tested for 2004, and EVERY SINGLE CAR beat the Legacy in braking...Fords, Toyotas, Hondas, Audis, etc....I think our Legacy has better stopping power than the 3/4 ton Chevy truck, the Hummer and one or two other very large trucks....pathetic.... I agree the tires aren't the best, but I also say that these is the worst brakes on any of the last 10 or so cars I have bought.....You have to stand on the brake pedal to even get the tires to start to skid...has nothing to do with the tires..... Mark 2005 Legacy GT LMT Sedan SEAT

[Flo4Legacy]

I am surprized about the bad tests. Maybe SOA changed something about the brakes compared to the EuroSpec ??? But I doubt that. A german magazine made a review of the Legacy 3.0R, the Audi A4, the BMW 3 and the Mercedes C class and also several tests. Of course finally a german car won :rolleyes:. But in the brake test (100 km/h - 0) the Legacy 3.0R (which should have the same brakes as the US LGT) was in the middle of the german cars and was also better then Audi. Also it showed slightly better results with warm brakes then cold. I can't remember exactly, but I think the Legacy had only 0,5 m more then the BMW or the Mercedes. Have to search up this article again. By the way, the EuroSpec Legacy 3.0R runs stock on the RE50A. Maybe the bad brake results are due to the RE92! I wouldn't count that out that fast.

[ih8vtec13]

The RE92s suck, the car has 12 in rotors in the fron how can that look bad unless you have crap tires. These tires are pure shyte.

[sduford]

It is mostly about the tires. The RE-92As have very poor stopping power. This explains why the European car with the much better RE-50a fares better. The Legacy would do much better in handling too if it had better tires, it would probably be near the top of the pack. Subaru is doing us and themselves a great diservice by putting those tires on their cars. I think the ABS system is also a bit weak, locks the wheels too much. And my Outback XT, with the same power as the LGT, has even worst braking distance. It's right up there with the likes of the Hummer H2, Chevy Suburban, and Nissan Armada. Pathetic. But my Michelin X-ICE tires seem to have actually improved the braking distance, especially on wet pavement. My RE-92s are for sale, they will not go back on the car. I should have asked the dealer to swap them out before I took delivery. Sly

[sduford]

It is mostly about the tires. The RE-92As have very poor stopping power. This explains why the European car with the much better RE-50a fares better. The Legacy would do much better in handling too if it had better tires, it would probably be near the top of the pack. Subaru is doing us and themselves a great diservice by putting those tires on their cars. I think the ABS system is also a bit weak, locks the wheels too much. And my Outback XT, with the same power as the LGT, has even worst braking distance. It's right up there with the likes of the Hummer H2, Chevy Suburban, and Nissan Armada. Pathetic. But my Michelin X-ICE tires seem to have actually improved the braking distance, especially on wet pavement. My RE-92s are for sale, they will not go back on the car. I should have asked the dealer to swap them out before I took delivery. Sly

[RobY]

Its mostly the RE 92's. I severely doubt that you could not lock up the tires. I lock up mine at half stroke. The Legacy is naturally a very balanced chasis with the advantage of AWD in the slalon and the skidpad there application of power is important since these excercises are done under power. The only gripe that I have about the legacy system itself is the poor intital bite. Which may trick people into thinking it has no power. A probelm VERY easily fixed by uprated pads. I have been at the performance automobile game for years since i was a weee teen and i can tell you with confidence there is absolutely ZERO wrong witht the braking system itself in terems of power.... you want proof... dont take my word for it. [url]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5012[/url] Also check the european reviews. Where the only diffrenc e is the tires. Well what do you know it now rates on the TOP of the pack! Dont try to logicisize it when you get the chance change the tires and eat your own words. :D

[Limeydriver]

I am almost certain that the Euro Spec Legacy will have different pads. Most Euro versions of cars sold here have very different brake feel due to the use of a more aggressive brake pad. Due to the higher speeds driven in Europe. I wouldn't be suprised to hear that the RE92 is not spec'ed on the Euro Leagacy either.

[frontrangeSubie]

[quote name='RobY']Its mostly the RE 92's. I severely doubt that you could not lock up the tires. I lock up mine at half stroke. The Legacy is naturally a very balanced chasis with the advantage of AWD in the slalon and the skidpad there application of power is important since these excercises are done under power. The only gripe that I have about the legacy system itself is the poor intital bite. Which may trick people into thinking it has no power. A probelm VERY easily fixed by uprated pads. I have been at the performance automobile game for years since i was a weee teen and i can tell you with confidence there is absolutely ZERO wrong witht the braking system itself in terems of power.... you want proof... dont take my word for it. [url]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5012[/url] Also check the european reviews. Where the only diffrenc e is the tires. Well what do you know it now rates on the TOP of the pack! Dont try to logicisize it when you get the chance change the tires and eat your own words. :D[/QUOTE] What European Reviews? I have an American made Legacy....the one overseas is a different car. All I know is ours in the States are tested and come in at the bottom of the pack...the VERY bottom. We shouldn't have to "change out our pads" to stop this vehicle, or stand on the brake pedal to stop it.....(and Im not talking about skidding the tires)....I don't get why the tires are to blame when they don't slip upon braking... I didn't rate the brakes...Motor Trend did....I just concur with their tests....Don't shoot the messenger ;-)

[RobY]

please read... it is absolutely the tires... [url]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5487[/url] If you are not skidding the tires at all bring the car back to the dealer... It is VERY easy to lock up the tires with a 100 percent stock system. Some have even done 90-0 stops leaving tire trails the entire way. The european car may be diffrent but the brake system is exactly the same. If you do not want to listnen to people who actually have changed out the tires only to realize that their braking increased tenfold thre is very little I can do to help you.

[franklin]

Frontrange Subie makes the point. From appearances these brakes look killer, huge rotors ( cant mount anything less than 17'' wheel) Subaru Rally experience etc. Then the testing- bottom of the pack! About as good as a Chevy Suburban-OUCH . Then we simply tell each other its simple on our new 25-30k cars if we want something better than bottom of the barrel braking all we have to do is replace all the tires and replace the brake pads. Come on, Subaru needs to deliver a dialed in system "as delivered"

[RobY]

[quote name='franklin']Frontrange Subie makes the point. From appearances these brakes look killer, huge rotors ( cant mount anything less than 17'' wheel) Subaru Rally experience etc. Then the testing- bottom of the pack! About as good as a Chevy Suburban-OUCH . Then we simply tell each other its simple on our new 25-30k cars if we want something better than bottom of the barrel braking all we have to do is replace all the tires and replace the brake pads. Come on, Subaru needs to deliver a dialed in system "as delivered"[/QUOTE] While I agree... I just want to make the point that subie need to change teh TIRES not the BRAKES. It is making very capable braking system look like absolute sheet!

[GBY]

Moved to Suspension/Brakes.

[frontrangeSubie]

[quote name='RobY']While I agree... I just want to make the point that subie need to change teh TIRES not the BRAKES. It is making very capable braking system look like absolute sheet![/QUOTE] It seems to me if you are skidding...you have TIRE problems....I'm not skidding.

[RobY]

[quote name='frontrangeSubie']It seems to me if you are skidding...you have TIRE problems....I'm not skidding.[/QUOTE] Well... you should be... If everybody on this board can make the RE-92's smoke like a chimeny and you cant there really is somthing wrong... I would file a warranty claim.

[frontrangeSubie]

I didn't say I CAN"T lock up the brakes...I can...just have to step on the pedal hard to stop....at least harder than many of my last cars. I would like to see some real test data comparing stopping distances with different tires.....not seat of the pants.... If it is the tires that cause the Legacy to be rated so low (stopping distances), I'll change them out and report back..... Thanks

[sduford]

[quote name='franklin']Then we simply tell each other its simple on our new 25-30k cars if we want something better than bottom of the barrel braking all we have to do is replace all the tires and replace the brake pads. Come on, Subaru needs to deliver a dialed in system "as delivered"[/QUOTE] I couldn't agree more, Subaru should be ashamed of themselves for using these tires. And they try to pretend they are worried about our safety. This is unacceptable in my book. Go check the ratings of all-season tires on 1010tires.com. youi'll see that it is pretty much the worst rated all-season tire. Sly

[sduford]

[quote name='frontrangeSubie']It seems to me if you are skidding...you have TIRE problems....I'm not skidding.[/QUOTE] The reason you're not skidding is ABS! The ABS willt ake the tires to their limit and pull back a bit, repeatedly. So the weaker the tires, the more the ABS has to release pressure, but the wheels should NOT lock completely. If people are leaving rubber trails, then their ABS brakes are not properly calibrated. A tire provides it's maximum friction just before it starts skidding, once a skid starts, the friction level goes WAY down. Sly

[Waynerm002]

Here is a question. Has anyone upgraded their tires to something they find perform a lot better in braking that they have reported on? I want to change out the tires on my 2.5i to something better and will probably go with 17 inch setup. The ride is quite comfortable with the 16s but after the A4 with the sport setup, I require better handling but don't want to lose much in the way of fuel economy.

[franklin]

Is it the tires? is it the pads? Is it some other design weakness? It would be inlightining to see an instrumentated test of just how much difference different tires and /or brake pads would make. Seat of the pants impressions are too unrealiable. Any body (or Vendor ) want to jump in and solve the puzzle with actual before and after test results? Would be nice to KNOW what to invest in to get some return. Hey COBB dont you sell some aftermarket pads-- What do they do mto help?

[sduford]

Just go on tirerack.com and 1010tires.com and check out the tests and reviews. There are many excellent choices in high performance summer and all-season tires.

[Waynerm002]

[size=2]Most cars are setup with a balance of performance and economy. The majority of the folks that drive have no complaint or would even know what to expect in terms of great performance from an auto. While they are certainly better products out there, if the manufacturer were to equip the vehicle with these upgraded items, it would cost more money upfront. [/size] [size=2][/size] [size=2]The european brands offer performance upgrades in the way of better springs, shocks tires, etc., and you pay extra if you want those performance upgrades. Now even with those extra items, your ride may still not be up to your standard. What options do you have? Aftermarket equipment. I will tell you that in my last car, the A4 quattro with the sport package, I replaced the tires and brakes as soon as I could afford to. I went on a fun run with the Audi club and realized that my brakes and tires were not up to the job of keeping up with some very spirited driving.[/size] [size=2][/size] [size=2]The ultra high performance tires I got were a compromise of mileage and performance as I do about 25K miles a year and would kill a set of tires in that time with the way I drive. First chance I got, I replaced the brakes with better pads and cross drilled rotors up fron and slotted in the rear. When I had to bleed off some speed, those things did the job quite well with the upgraded tires.[/size] [size=2][/size] [size=2]Yes, the tires on the car suck however, to the majority of the "normal" (most of us here don't fit that category) drivers out there, they are fine and will last a long time, which is what a lot of folks want. If you are not happy with your current setup, go out and get what you need to satisfy you. We, after all, have a choice and plenty of options.[/size]

[sduford]

Ignorance is bliss. Most of the people who are OK with these tires just plain don't realize that their braking distance is much longer then it should be, bordering on unacceptable in fact. And totally unacceptable on wet pavement. I for one do not believe these people should be less safe just because they are oblivious to the fact they are riding on bad tires. Also, these tires are actually quite expensive. There are plenty of more affordable tires that perform much better, especially from the likes of Toyo and Kuhmo. A lot of people are shopping Subarus for the first time because of the top-notch crash test results and AWD safety. Little do they realize that the tires that come with the car severely compromise their safety. Also, I am sure that Subaru is losing a LOT of sales because the Legacy and Outback are getting much poorer reviews then they deserve, just because of these tires. Sounds like a lose-lose situation to me. Sly

[kanoswrx]

The only thing I don't like about the legacy gt brakes is at high speeds 70-80 mph when braking hard the shudder some. Like you feel the brakes wobble a little. Did a similar thing in my WRX, think its just the rotors, never a fan of subaru rotors, they groove to easily.

[emlevins]

If you have ugraded tires, and can compare braking performance from the stock to upgraded tires, register your vote here: [url]http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5493[/url]

[il collaudatore]

If people are saying to switch the tires, switch the pads, and deal with the lack of initial bite on the pedal to feel the true power of the brakes, then that's a fault on Subaru's part. Because most people who buy this car will not know, want, or care to start fiddling around with the brake components. That's like saying a Civic has one the best performing engines around- you just have to flash the ECU, and bolt on a turbo, and then you'll see how good the engine is.