Newbie suspension upgrade questions

[itsme]

All I can tell you is the primary problem with the LGT wagon stock handling is body roll. And anti-roll bars fix that. Adding stiffer springs to address body roll is not the answer. Lowering the car with stiffer springs without adding shocks can make the car handle worse than stock.

 

Unless you want to get really into suspension tuning, add roll bars (F&R) first. If you are into bling, then springs are a good choice. But remember that lowering the car changes suspension geometry particularly when the wheels are turned into a corner.

 

Springs DO address the issue of dive and squat in the LGT. But unless you are talking about drag or Autox, it is not a big deal deal in daily driving (spirited type)

 

Try to get a ride in car that has only spring upgrades and another that has only sways(F&R) You will be surprised!!!

 

Are you stating that from your experience or from what you think is true? I have a wagon. First I added wheels and tires and it gave the car more grip. Next I added whiteline adj. F&R swaybars(set on soft). The car is very flat and and stable when we go on our canyon runs without a hit in the ride. Next I got H-tech springs(@.9" drop) and got rid of alot of squat and dive and got the body on under control when braking and acceleration. I still have stock struts and the springs improved the the cars handling. Maybe some of the more radical springs( like the s-tech @1.5" drop) may hurt the the handling

[LittleBlueGT]

I have JDM Bilsteins, iON springs, COBB sways, and Toyo T1R rubber.

 

I noticed a slight improvement with my CUCO lower bars, but it was in magnitudes less then the rest of the suspension mods.

 

I drive my car hard in certain roads, but likely don't beat on it like Keefe does.

 

On the other hand I explore the limits of the tires grip every single day.

[LittleBlueGT]

I also noticed no difference at all with my MSI end-links, they just look cool!

 

 

Actually the reason I got them is becasue the stock ones get all rusted and are hard to get tightened up again. It is nice to be able to easily change the stiffness of my RSB when winter comes.

[itsme]

I have JDM Bilsteins, iON springs, COBB sways, and Toyo T1R rubber.

 

I noticed a slight improvement with my CUCO lower bars, but it was in magnitudes less then the rest of the suspension mods.

 

I drive my car hard in certain roads, but likely don't beat on it like Keefe does.

 

On the other hand I explore the limits of the tires grip every single day.

Did you go front and rear lower braces? What kind of improvment? Does the body feel stiffer? Do you think it will keep the car stiffer over the life of the car? I will also have my superpro LCA bushings installed on Friday. Thanks for the info.

[LittleBlueGT]

Did you go front and rear lower braces? What kind of improvment? Does the body feel stiffer? Do you think it will keep the car stiffer over the life of the car? I will also have my superpro LCA bushings installed on Friday. Thanks for the info.

 

Both front and rear.

 

NVH is the same as far as I can tell.

 

The rear made the most noteable difference, when I am walking the threshold between over and understeer and balancing the throttle inputs accordingly.

 

I do think that long-term it could preserve your alignment and stop the weak rear sub-frame attaching points of the suspension from bending.

 

 

 

If you are doing everything else, why not?

 

If you are looking for bang-for-the-buck mods look elsewhere.

[Xenonk]

All I can tell you is the primary problem with the LGT wagon stock handling is body roll. And anti-roll bars fix that. Adding stiffer springs to address body roll is not the answer. Lowering the car with stiffer springs without adding shocks can make the car handle worse than stock.

 

Unless you want to get really into suspension tuning, add roll bars (F&R) first. If you are into bling, then springs are a good choice. But remember that lowering the car changes suspension geometry particularly when the wheels are turned into a corner.

 

Springs DO address the issue of dive and squat in the LGT. But unless you are talking about drag or Autox, it is not a big deal deal in daily driving (spirited type)

 

Try to get a ride in car that has only spring upgrades and another that has only sways(F&R) You will be surprised!!!

 

 

As a note to your anti-roll bar comment, once I get my 14kg/12kg springs on the Zeals with the rebuild, I will be going back to stock sway bars as I want more independence out of each corner. It really depends what you want to do.. there's nothing really wrong with having a little body roll as it's a good indication that your tires are holding grip.. you start to worry when your car isnt leaning to put pressure down on the tires that you need grip..

[whitetiger]

whitetiger knows what he is talking about..

 

Comming from you, that is a huge complement. Much thanks.

[robinlsb]

Are you stating that from your experience or from what you think is true? I have a wagon. First I added wheels and tires and it gave the car more grip. Next I added whiteline adj. F&R swaybars(set on soft). The car is very flat and and stable when we go on our canyon runs without a hit in the ride. Next I got H-tech springs(@.9" drop) and got rid of alot of squat and dive and got the body on under control when braking and acceleration. I still have stock struts and the springs improved the the cars handling. Maybe some of the more radical springs( like the s-tech @1.5" drop) may hurt the the handling

 

I am talking from experience re sway bars but not springs on the LGT wagon. It terms of other cars, a lot of experience with spring/shock combinations and lowering.

 

Sure, better tires and lighter rims will improve the lateral G's that a car can accomplish in a corner. But handling at the limit of adhesion (which in the LGT wagon sucks) will remain pretty much the same.

 

You have pretty much followed what I would do (price no object) in terms of a progressive improvement in a cars handling. I would match the springs to the shocks though.

 

After that real suspension tuning applies. And if everything goes well you will end up with a car just like xnekonk's that just barely lifts the outside rear wheel.

[tantal]

People here hate the RE92s.

 

They are not that bad, better then many tires out there on economy cars.

 

I don't like them either (sold mine the first day) but they have more performance then many AS tires.

 

I have to object The biggest problem with the RE92's is that they are only as good as what you get on economy cars - THAT's the problem. You see these tires on scions and corollas.

 

/off topic

 

[tantal]

Xenonk doesn't need anyone to back him up , but I'm gonna have to agree pretty strongly with this. When I went from my stock RE92's to the RE050 A's (still available on closeout at tirerack afaik) in 225/45/17, the difference was absolutely incredible, on BBS RK rims (about the same weight as stock). In fact, when we put our winter tires (LM-25's on stock rims) on the car and I drove it for the first time I thought, "OH, SNAP this sucks" all over again, but you have to have good winter grip.

 

Anyway, the car is night and day better when you go to great rubber. I am waiting to do my suspension because of other car projects that are more important, and may end up only swapping out my rear sway bar and leaving it at that - I have my RX-8 now and the LGT mods have strangely fallen down the priority list

 

Anyway, get tires - look on tirerack for the 050A - at $92 a tire, there is no better deal available for a summer tire - not even close. And while I may get flamed (bring it on ), stay away from Kumho, Falken, etc, the cheapies are not worth the money (I have a post somewhere around here that justifies that somewhat bold statement). Finally, an exception here is the Azenis 615, but this is an autocross tire that is streetable, if that's your thing. It's not a street tire that's autocrossable, if you know what I mean.

 

/tire discussion off.

 

at this point in time when you havent tackled the earlier and more important pieces (primary functions), I would have to say no, it's not a bang for your buck at all.

 

If I had to choose between driving a completely stock car with awesome tires or a car that has every suspension part known to man but with crappy tires, I'll take the stock car with great tires.

 

 

I have raced my GT in pure stock form with stock tires and another back to back autocross with lightweight wheels and tires... the difference is incredible. The car handles well for what it is in pure stock form (so long as you know where the limit of grip of the crappy all-season stock tires are). The moment I put on the Falken Azenis RT-615s street-compound "race" tires, the car was soo much better in all aspects, including braking as the ABS didnt kick in as early, allowing you to put in harder braking inputs.

[robinlsb]

As a note to your anti-roll bar comment, once I get my 14kg/12kg springs on the Zeals with the rebuild, I will be going back to stock sway bars as I want more independence out of each corner. It really depends what you want to do.. there's nothing really wrong with having a little body roll as it's a good indication that your tires are holding grip.. you start to worry when your car isnt leaning to put pressure down on the tires that you need grip..

 

You are quite right about body roll. But the guy asked, "how can I improve handling" Hell ,Karts don't have sways and neither do most F cars and that is my racing background. But body roll does not inspire confidence (at least with me).

 

Heck, in racing, suspension tuning is what is all about. If it was a science in any type cars, everybody would be in a pack.. But when everything fits you and the track, you can "run away and hide" And it ain't horsepower!!!

[LittleBlueGT]

I have to object The biggest problem with the RE92's is that they are only as good as what you get on economy cars - THAT's the problem. You see these tires on scions and corollas.

 

/off topic

 

 

There are plenty of economy cars that run with tires that have worse grip then RE92s.

 

RE92s actually have OK grip on dry pavement, not that great in water and not good in snow, especially once they wear down a bit.

 

Here is some interesting info from SubieSport magazine that seems to back up my view that the RE92s are not horrible:

 

"The final objective test was a turn on the skidpad. This measures the lateral G-forces the car can take before it loses grip. The higher the results, the better. First on the mark, the Audi S4. Round and round it went, the driver making progressively smaller circles until grip diminshed. Even here nose plow was seriously obvious. The final score for the Audi was 0.777. For those that may complain about how crappy the stock Bridgestone RE-92s are on Subaru vehicles, consider this: The stock Legacy GT beat the fat 245/40/ZR18 Pilot Sport-eqipped Audi with a 0.844 skidpad score. Probably not surprising, but the Rallitek car owned all, with a freakishly sticky 0.924.

 

I am not saying that I like the RE92s. I sold mine before I even got the car. But on my 00 Maxima (which also came with RE92s) I kept them for about 60,000 kms because they worked OK in the dry, and I didn't have as much coin back then. I spent the money on my suspension, and then when my tires were worn I got better ones. I didn't however use them in the snow (had seperate winters) and found them to be bad on water, but we don't get much rain here.

[robinlsb]

There are plenty of economy cars that run with tires that have worse grip then RE92s.

 

RE92s actually have OK grip on dry pavement, not that great in water and not good in snow, especially once they wear down a bit.

 

Here is some interesting info from SubieSport magazine that seems to back up my view that the RE92s are not horrible:

 

"The final objective test was a turn on the skidpad. This measures the lateral G-forces the car can take before it loses grip. The higher the results, the better. First on the mark, the Audi S4. Round and round it went, the driver making progressively smaller circles until grip diminshed. Even here nose plow was seriously obvious. The final score for the Audi was 0.777. For those that may complain about how crappy the stock Bridgestone RE-92s are on Subaru vehicles, consider this: The stock Legacy GT beat the fat 245/40/ZR18 Pilot Sport-eqipped Audi with a 0.844 skidpad score. Probably not surprising, but the Rallitek car owned all, with a freakishly sticky 0.924.

 

I am not saying that I like the RE92s. I sold mine before I even got the car. But on my 00 Maxima (which also came with RE92s) I kept them for about 60,000 kms because they worked OK in the dry, and I didn't have as much coin back then. I spent the money on my suspension, and then when my tires were worn I got better ones. I didn't however use them in the snow (had seperate winters) and found them to be bad on water, but we don't get much rain here.

 

 

My point exactly:)

[fast_5BE]

So what tires have people found to work best? Best depends on use, which in my case is primarily a DD with occasional autoX on the weekend. It rains a lot in P-Town so wet traction is a plus. When the RE92's give up the ghost I plan to go to separate summer/winter tires.

 

What dampers have people found to be good compromise between street and track (same conditions as tires)?

[tantal]

So what tires have people found to work best? Best depends on use, which in my case is primarily a DD with occasional autoX on the weekend. It rains a lot in P-Town so wet traction is a plus. When the RE92's give up the ghost I plan to go to separate summer/winter tires.

 

What dampers have people found to be good compromise between street and track (same conditions as tires)?

 

If you are going summer and winter tires (recommended) then you have a number of good choices for summer. B'stone RE 050A on closeout at tirerack is by far the best choice for price performance - you will likely never again see such a good deal as this. It is also a top choice tire at the current price of its replacement, the 050 A pole position - it is that good IMO. Others more or less equal, maybe a little less, include the Contisportcontact 2, and the improved (I don't yet know how) Contisportcontact 3, the Dunlop SP Sport Maxx, Goodyear GS-F1, Toyo T1-R, Avon M500, and finally the aging Dunlop SP sport 9000 might be a good candidate for the exceptionally rainy northwest. The Avon is cheap, and the _only_ cheap tire I'd recommend, and that only because I've run this tire and it compares favorably to the 050A, although the 050A is still clearly superior in my mind. There are also several great tires available in 225/45/17 that are more than $200 per, but I think the above list contains several choices that can only be marginally beaten by those tires, so I don't recommend them, but that's just my opinion.

 

My advice is to just buy that 050A, or the pole position. It is an absolutely fabulous tire, wet or dry, and it is very quiet for a summer (RE 92's are louder), and gives a nice ride too.

 

If you are on a budget, I would recommend the Avon, and that's it!

 

Good luck!

[RdiggA]

anyone know how the H&R springs ride? not looking for extreme performance...just something stiffer than stock, and that reduces sway,...i would also like to keep the ride somewhat smooth if possible...any info would be appreciated, thanks

[robinlsb]

anyone know how the H&R springs ride? not looking for extreme performance...just something stiffer than stock, and that reduces sway,...i would also like to keep the ride somewhat smooth if possible...any info would be appreciated, thanks

 

If you can find this set up let me know. I will invest in the company

[itsme]

If you can find this set up let me know. I will invest in the company

I thought Tirerack.com had them.

[robinlsb]

I thought Tirerack.com had them.

 

Lets see here, I want a Subie that doesn't lean, handles corners like an F1 car, can carry four passengers, doesn't run up against bump stops, not too low, and rides well? Find one yet??? Not to mention pot hole issues, running in the rain or snow has to be perfect. If you can find that suspension set, I want to talk to the Easter Bunny while I am ordering the parts.

[DogLeggGT]

So, from reading through the entire thread, it kinda sounds like people could agree that a sound moehtodology to progressively deal with upgrading stock suspension might be: (1) first tires; (2) then wheels; (3) next spings/dampers; and then tune in (4) antisway bars/links... and after that keep tuning for more focussed track use if necessary.

 

Comments?

[itsme]

So, from reading through the entire thread, it kinda sounds like people could agree that a sound moehtodology to progressively deal with upgrading stock suspension might be: (1) first tires; (2) then wheels; (3) next spings/dampers; and then tune in (4) antisway bars/links... and after that keep tuning for more focussed track use if necessary.

 

Comments?

Your right.

1 &2 Most get wheels and tires at the same time. Make sure to get wheels the same weight or lighter.

3 I got springs only first. I will use them till they wear out. Hopefully we will have more choices in dampers when they go.

4 with the sways you don't have to change the stock endlinks unless you have some clearance problem.

[NSFW]

Kind of hard for most of us to upgrade to 18" tires without getting 18" wheels at the same time.

[RdiggA]

ride height question? dropping 1.4 in the front and 1.3 in the rear...does anyone think i would find problems with it being too low?

[robinlsb]

ride height question? dropping 1.4 in the front and 1.3 in the rear...does anyone think i would find problems with it being too low?

 

No problem, until you meet a 5 inch protruding manhole cover on a Boston street!!! lunched a nice 911 motor that way!!! :(

[DogLeggGT]

Your right.

1 &2 Most get wheels and tires at the same time. Make sure to get wheels the same weight or lighter.

3 I got springs only first. I will use them till they wear out. Hopefully we will have more choices in dampers when they go.

4 with the sways you don't have to change the stock endlinks unless you have some clearance problem.

 

Yah, I'm planning on getting the wheels and tires together (18" tires and 17" wheels... ) and your comment about weight of wheels is important. Maybe my next question is best for the wheel and tire forum, but since we're here...

 

I've been told that the OEM alloys on the '06 GT are about 20.5lbs. The wheels I'm looking at are 18x8 @ 19.4lbs. Obviously lighter, but since I'll be putting new wheel weight out further away from the center of mass, the MOI will be greater. At the same time, new 18" tires will be adding a bit of weight (I think). So, how do we figure out the net performance gain with larger but lighter wheels and larger but - I'm not 100% sure, but - probably slightly heavier tires?