LGT weird handling near limit question

[DukeTrout]

How much can stability control help in lift-off oversteer? In the end, stability control is just more brakes - exactly what got you into trouble in the first place. Unless it can act so quickly that you avoid the oversteer in the first place.

[mickeyd2005]

Stability control takes advantage of 4 channel ABS. It can brake each wheel independently which is something the driver can't do.

 

How well it works depends upon a lot of factors. Number one is how good is the programmer. I've worked with people who work on fly by wire airplane software. It's not that obvious and it is possible to create control laws that can be dangerous.

[deimos]

are you letting off the throttle and applying the brakes AFTER you make the commitment of steering into the turn? If you are letting off the throttle, turn, and then apply the brakes, you are doing the classic dynamic drift move of using the following techniques one after another:

 

throttle-off

possibly a scandavian flick

braking drift

 

The problem is that you havent got the firm grasp of general car dynamics and how you are rocking/pitching the car on purpose, you are doing it by accident.

 

I realize now that I essentially did this all by accident (in the most recent instance, while driving in the wet, not trying to test limits, just getting back to work).

 

In the past I have enjoyed the lift-throttle oversteer on off ramps etc and even a bit in the snow. But this particular instance was more a bad traction/panicked reaction instance where I should have been smoother but I was just trying to slow down/take the corner by dropping speed which was obviously done improperly for the situation.

 

I think that if you aware of this characteristic it can be quite fun and controlled, but I just need to remember that even when I am not in the "drifting mood" the car will still behave in that way if I react with lift-throttle, mid turn braking, etc.

[robinlsb]

This is wrong. The legacy with the better tires will win 99% of the time if compared to one with stock re92s and a rear sway bar. It is often the case that the stock class cars with the race tires do much better than the street turing cars with all their suspension work and street tires.

 

 

I said sway BARS! F&R

[GTTuner]

^^^ The LGT definitely "suffers" from throttle-lift oversteer...

 

Thats why I love my LGT. You can toss this car around with throttle, steering, and brakes = howling sideways in a WOT drift with your passenger holding on for dear life:lol: as you exit the corner. LOVE it!

[STG]

Interestingly Consumer Reports found and notes that LGT handling is tricky at the limits (and in emergency moves). Not the automotive source however its just a charectoristic of the car that could have been easily be corrected with VDC.

 

Consumer Reports is absolutely the last place to go for opinions on automobiles in general and how the handle in particular.

 

The Legacy's handling is not tricky. It is very easy to control in turns at the limit and handles transistions exceptionally well.

 

If you don't have any experience driving at the limit, you shouldn't be going that fast on public streets. Take a class from Bondurant or join the SCCA and learn how to drive.

 

If you can't steer the car with the throttle, slow down on plublic roads. If you don't know what happens at the limit in a turn when you lift the throttle, then be prepared to become intimately familiar with that ditch.

 

Of course, selling the Legacy and buying a FWD car with allow yopu to plow through turns.

[STG]

Hey all,

 

I have experienced a weird handling issue/characteristic with my 05 LGT MT (stock, re92s)

 

In all instances taking a corner fairly quickly (one sharp, one long), oversteer happens, car veers to left (nose first) and feels like it will spin out, I "correct" the steering as best I can only to oversteer in the opposite direction....

 

Luckily I have been able to get out of both situations without event, but pretty scary and not something I want to do again. ...

 

I have heard of some STi going into a wall because of a similar thing as this, and Im pretty sure ppl have discussed it before..

 

IF YOUR CAR IS VERERING "(NOSE FIRST)" IT IS UNDERSTEERING, NOT OVERSTEERING.

 

STi drivers that go into walls can't drive. They've probably confused understeer with oversteer.

[crafty]

I'd say it is a mix of the car but primarily the gas/brake work

[Vimy101]

IF YOUR CAR IS VERERING "(NOSE FIRST)" IT IS UNDERSTEERING, NOT OVERSTEERING.

 

STi drivers that go into walls can't drive. They've probably confused understeer with oversteer.

 

The OP was just mixing his terms up. To me it reads like the rear end got light and started to get away on him and then he overcorrected when it snapped back. Braking hard into the corner FTW. Braking hard in the corner FTL.

 

Another wrinkle for a new AWD driver like myself (bring on the damn snow already) is that lifting the throttle suddenly in a turn not only might cause the rear tires to lose grip but engine breaking from the front tires will compound the effect.

[deimos]

IF YOUR CAR IS VERERING "(NOSE FIRST)" IT IS UNDERSTEERING, NOT OVERSTEERING.

 

STi drivers that go into walls can't drive. They've probably confused understeer with oversteer.

 

 

Who pissed in your cornflakes?

 

And yes it was OVERSTEERING the back end flew out, the front did not PLOW forward which is UNDERSTEERING.

 

And I wasnt driving crazy, testing my limits on public roads, I was going around a corner, in the wet and happend to use the wrong series of movements to break speed causing me to start drifting.

 

I guess you are a perfect driver and have never made a mistake in inclement weather? Im happy for you.

[robinlsb]

Who pissed in your cornflakes?

 

And yes it was OVERSTEERING the back end flew out, the front did not PLOW forward which is UNDERSTEERING.

 

And I wasnt driving crazy, testing my limits on public roads, I was going around a corner, in the wet and happend to use the wrong series of movements to break speed causing me to start drifting.

 

I guess you are a perfect driver and have never made a mistake in inclement weather? Im happy for you.

 

+1 Unless you were there, you should not second guess!!!!

[tytek]

driving school ftw

[STG]

+1 Unless you were there, you should not second guess!!!!

 

Being there isn't a factor. deimos posted that his car veered NOSE FIRST. That's understeer. It's not my fault he can't express himself correctly.

 

The fact is, I didn't second guess as others on this thread did. deimos' writing was quite clear.

[STG]

Who pissed in your cornflakes?

 

.......... I was going around a corner, in the wet and happend to use the wrong series of movements to break speed causing me to start drifting.

 

 

 

You're pissing in my corn flakes. What the hell does "the wrong series of movements to break speed" mean??:lol::lol:

 

Perhaps eet is a comment on zee Canaydeann Education, no?

[AirSix]

In turning, front end is loaded due to braking, coming off throttle, tire scuff, etc. As someone else wrote, all of your driving inputs should conclude by the point of turn in, especially braking. As you apex the turn, the front end unloads through acceleration. You're feeling this lateral float at the point of acceleration out of the turn? I assume you're overloading the rear end and through the physics of AWD you get that wierd understeer-to-oversteer drift. Pilots might refer to it as yaw. I assume such lateral physics were the catalyst behind Mitsubishi's developing the EVO's automatic yaw controls.

[GTTuner]

Quote from STG: "Consumer Reports is absolutely the last place to go for opinions on automobiles in general and how the handle in particular."

 

AMEN!!!! +100.

[TSiWRX]

I'm not entirely sure that recommending either suspension modifications (i.e. sways, springs/struts, etc.) or tire upgrades for the OP would be such a great idea.

 

The problem in this case is clearly that he'd over-driven the capabilities of the vehicle/tire combination. Certainly, on the stock RE92s - in the wet, turning, *and* potentially at less-than-optimal tire-pressures - the limits of the LGT is most definitely not "high," but driven conservatively enough, this should not have happened.

 

By addressing the OP's current concern through the use of aftermarket componentry which raise the handling limits - but at the same time may further compress the "sweet spot" of handling so much that it is more easily over-stepped, and thus with greater consequence (i.e. at higher speeds, etc.) - I think that would just hide the real problem, only to have it explode later with much greater negative results.

 

The first thing to do, for the OP, IMveryHO, would be to get a better understanding of his vehicle's driving dynamics under various situations, as well as to learn how to properly not only avoid certain negative vehicle behavior (remembering that not all desired track-traits are desired on public roads), as well as how to correct for them.

 

The underlying issue here is one of driving technique, and that should not be patched-over with better equipment. The consequences of exceeding the limits of better equipment is likely to be much more severe.

[deimos]

Being there isn't a factor. deimos posted that his car veered NOSE FIRST. That's understeer. It's not my fault he can't express himself correctly.

 

The fact is, I didn't second guess as others on this thread did. deimos' writing was quite clear.

 

You're pissing in my corn flakes. What the hell does "the wrong series of movements to break speed" mean??:lol::lol:

 

Perhaps eet is a comment on zee Canaydeann Education, no?

 

 

Actually I said the "car veers to LEFT (nose first) and feels like it will spin out"

 

Sounds a lot like oversteer huh? Its not my fault you cant read Must be that Good ol 'Merican edumacation.

 

And my Canadian education has taught me to be respectful of other cultures and people from other backgrounds unlike ignorant pricks like yourself.

 

Using the wrong series of movements to break speed means that I shouldnt have lifted from the throttle and tried to brake during the turn, which resulted in oversteer. In restrospect I should have braked early and smoothed out my movement. Lesson learned.

[DukeTrout]

I'm not entirely sure that recommending either suspension modifications (i.e. sways, springs/struts, etc.) or tire upgrades for the OP would be such a great idea.

 

The problem in this case is clearly that he'd over-driven the capabilities of the vehicle/tire combination. Certainly, on the stock RE92s - in the wet, turning, *and* potentially at less-than-optimal tire-pressures - the limits of the LGT is most definitely not "high," but driven conservatively enough, this should not have happened.

 

By addressing the OP's current concern through the use of aftermarket componentry which raise the handling limits - but at the same time may further compress the "sweet spot" of handling so much that it is more easily over-stepped, and thus with greater consequence (i.e. at higher speeds, etc.) - I think that would just hide the real problem, only to have it explode later with much greater negative results.

 

The first thing to do, for the OP, IMveryHO, would be to get a better understanding of his vehicle's driving dynamics under various situations, as well as to learn how to properly not only avoid certain negative vehicle behavior (remembering that not all desired track-traits are desired on public roads), as well as how to correct for them.

 

The underlying issue here is one of driving technique, and that should not be patched-over with better equipment. The consequences of exceeding the limits of better equipment is likely to be much more severe.

 

Well said. Only caveat is that stickier tires will definitely help broaden the at-limit behavior of the car, compared to RE92s. One of the main complaints people seem to have with them is that when they break loose, they do so suddenly and without mercy.

[deimos]

Well said. Only caveat is that stickier tires will definitely help broaden the at-limit behavior of the car, compared to RE92s. One of the main complaints people seem to have with them is that when they break loose, they do so suddenly and without mercy.

 

I agree. My driver inputs certainly caused the oversteer, but it likely wouldnt have been so severe if it werent for the re92s, man do they suck in the wet, they broke loose very suddenly (the moment I took my foot of the gas). They are good tires for what they are but mine are wearing out now and I def need to get some better replacements.

[Xenonk]

I'll stick with my sway bar suggestion. A very good driver, ala Zeconk with lots of seat time can make a not very well handling car go fast. But, thats not what we are talking about here. We are not talking about a race track.

 

We are talking about on/off ramps or(I hope) deserted back roads. In these cases you can't go back in time and say "I overcooked that decreasing radius turn, oops, I spun out! There are no cones to hit, just stone walls or trees.

 

I suspect that my wagon, with those dreaded re92s, will out corner a stock wagon with Goodyear's or what have you. That is why bigger bars bump you up a class in SCCA solo.

 

Better tires just increase the G limit of adhesion. The problem of initial over steer transition will remain. It will just occur at a higher speed!

 

 

It's just about the understanding of what you do.. you dont have to be on the race track to spin a car out or hit a curb, wall, or a telephone poll (as your on-ramp example demonstrates that). My suggestion is understanding what you are doing to the car and understand what inputs you can give to the car so that it will respond. If the car can only handle so much, that's it, don't feed it more input than it needs because it wont know what to do with it. It's like you're trying to dead lift a mountain, your body wont have enough strength to do it, no matter what YOU think your body can do.

 

If a car can only respond to 100% of total input, that's it, no more. So if you dialed in about 55% of steering input and 50% throttle, well, it's simple that the car wont know what to do with the extra 5% of steering that you are inputting, and that's when the car will want to start understeering (as you want it to turn, but it's not turning). So really, this subject has nothing to do with sway bars or how much track time I have, it's really about understanding what the car is doing and understanding what you are telling the car to do.

[Xenonk]

How much can stability control help in lift-off oversteer? In the end, stability control is just more brakes - exactly what got you into trouble in the first place. Unless it can act so quickly that you avoid the oversteer in the first place.

 

It depends on the type of stability control.. not all of them use brakes, some just cut off power based on electronic LSDs and the such.

 

Combined with ABS, braking is lessen to the specific corners of the car, thus allows the car to slow down evenly as if it was traveling at a straight line. Because you are turning, the outside tires are traveling faster while the inside tires are traveling less distance.. so in this case, the braking power to the inside tires are reduced, this same affect is also applies to the front and rear tire balance.

[AWDpower]

For both the LGT and the friend with the EVO, I recommend stongly against suspension mods until you have more expirience with the car. Most people do more harm then good with suspension mods. You should get enough expirience with the car to the point where you know that the car is holding you back, not the other way around. Until then, even properly executed mods will just allow you to crash faster. Seat time and proper instruction will make you faster then most mods, and safer in all situations. Even in stock form, the LGT has a capeable suspension that can do very well in the hands of a good driver. It doesn't have as big of an understeer safety net as other cars, which makes it more fun to drive. But it can also be a bit less forgiving. Sticky tires will raise the limits of the car. They will help mask mistakes made below those limits. But when those limits are reached, and if you havn't learned how to control the car, you will again, crash faster. As for the pic of the EVO, don't judge the car by the picture. If it were an expirienced driver, driving smoothly at the limit, it may indicate time to take the suspension to another level. But a novice can easily get such behavior with too sudden braking and/or steering inputs. Fix the driver first. The car that looks like it is going fast is often the one that is going slow.