GT Wagon vs Volvo V50 T5 AWD Wagon

[lemming]

[quote name='eamiller']I'm seriously looking at the S60 T5 AWD 6M over the Legacy, for the mere fact that it offers more lux with nearly the same performance as a Legacy GT LTD. Having said that, I get both Subaru VIP and Ford X-Plan (which was changed this year so that Volvos are now invoice instead of slightly above) and the Legacy is a killer deal. However, I will probably drive whatever car I decide on for a long time, so $3000-$4000 over that time isn't a huge deal. I also doubt that apples-to-apples, neither the Haldex nor Subaru's mechanical AWD would show a difference in 99% of driving situations. Plus, you can get stability control on the Volvo and not on the Subaru. DSTC can do things that no mechanical AWD system could ever do (individual wheel control, throttle control, etc). All of the reviews I have seen on the S60/V70R (identical system) have been exceptionally positive in regards to the AWD. It may be forward biased when you're running down the highway, but my guess is that it moves toward the rear when the acceleromters detect acceleration and/or cornering, probably before any slip is even detected (no purely mechanical system can do that).[/quote] i think choosing the S60 is a good idea. it's a well built car. the downside, and this may or not matter to you, is the performance. the S60R is slow for its apparent HP rating and this has to do with several things, one of them being unable to disable the traction control system fully and the second is weight. an honest difference between subaru cars and volvo, for example is that while awd is considered, the volvo/ford platforms are designed to be FWD platforms while AWD is integrated into the subaru platform moving forward. you can see how important that is not only for handling but also for curb weight. when i have to choose between creature comforts and speed, speed always wins for me.

[praedet]

[b]MAJOR POINT: THE T5 IS NOT A TWIN-SCROLL TURBOCHARGER!!!![/b] It is a low-pressure tc designed to boost low-end and mid-range. The Leg on the other-hand boosts mid-range and a little top-end(more low-range and top-end as the breathing is improved). If you don’t believe me about the T5 engine, search the Volvo page or any write-up about it. It would be mentioned. Ok, if any of you discussing this do a quick search, there are multiple threads in the past discussing these cars (or Leg sedan vs S40 sedan). In this thread, [url]http://www.legacygt.com/viewtopic.php?t=1323&highlight=volvo+s40[/url], on the second page I document a price and option comparison list, along with performance comparisons. The perf. numbers that appear in that post that are now different. Firstly, the Leg GT sedan has posted better numbers, 5.6 realm, and the wagon will be about .1 behind that, so figure 5.7. The S40 0-60 documented on that thread is the "European" S40, which is lighter than the USA S40, so as I pointed out on the post, conversion to wagon and addition of AWD will push 0-60 to around 6.8-7.0, at best.(I actually think it might not break 7 sec unless the AWD makes up for the weight) The 1/4 mile in the C/D test was with a FWD, so the et. might stay the same, but the trap speed would drop greatly due to weight and drag. This equates to a much slower car period. A Leg. GT sedan has already gone under 14 flat and 100mph trap. The V50 would definitely weigh more than a comparably speced Leg. Wgn., so handling would not even be a contest. Lastly, the prices mentioned in that thread above are still valid. Equally speced, there is a $4K difference in MSRP. If you go by what they are selling for, it is more like $5-6K. If you then add the features everyone has complained about the Leg not having, it rises to roughly $7-9K. Think of that as mod money. With $1K, a Le GT will beat a S60R/V70R, so imagine $9K worth of improvements. Performance upgrades are more expensive on the Volvo. (Look at IPD prices) And last, why is a 6-spd better than a 5. And if that is true, why not 7-spd, or 20-spd? The posted mileage is better on the Volvo because of the lack of AWD. I have not seen where te AWD numbers are documented. I suspect they will be MUCH closer to, if not the same, as the Legacy Wgn’s. 6 gears equates to more shifting in traffic. If the engine matches the drive train, extra gears are not needed. When you drive the Legacy, you will notice that the ratios are darn near perfect. Would an overdrive gear be nice? Only if you cruise in the 85-95 range. Under that, a 6th gear would put the engine outside of its powerband and prove quick acceleration impossible. (Emergency avoidance?) The time it would take you to go from 6th to 5th would be too long and there could be a wreck. I actually prefer 5 gears in a car, unless it has to have them, (TSX with no torque) or it has the low-end to move at 1800 rpms. (Corvette) I hope this answers some questions. Off my soapbox now. Sorry this was so long. I was interested in the V50 for about 5 minutes, until I saw the huge gap in performance and value…. Ted

[TeeLoo]

[quote name='eamiller']I'm seriously looking at the S60 T5 AWD 6M over the Legacy, for the mere fact that it offers more lux with nearly the same performance as a Legacy GT LTD.[/quote] No such Volvo model, you mean S60 T5 (5MT) or S40 T5 AWD or S60R (has AWD)?

[TeeLoo]

[quote name='praedet'] The V50 would definitely weigh more than a comparably speced Leg. Wgn.[/quote] Not true.

[TeeLoo]

[quote name='eamiller']I also doubt that apples-to-apples, neither the Haldex nor Subaru's mechanical AWD would show a difference in 99% of driving situations.[/quote] Because the LGT 5MT has 50-50 traction between rear and front wheels on normal driving conditions you get a much improved turning radius over the Volvo. That will impact your day-to-day driving situations. Admit, that you simply prefer Volvos and that's perfectly acceptable. Choosing a car is not all about technical comparisons but how you feel about the car. However if you go into the technical details of who has the better AWD systems and that Subaru's is not that much better than Volvo's Haldex then I think you're making the wrong decision.

[gtguy]

[quote name='TeeLoo'][quote name='praedet'] The V50 would definitely weigh more than a comparably speced Leg. Wgn.[/quote] Not true.[/quote] Car & Driver tested a V50 T5 AWD, and curb weight is 3552, 0-60 time is 6.9 seconds, but their car was an automatic, IIRC. Oh, and slower steering, with smaller brakes. [url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=8432&page_number=4[/url] Careful there, praedet...you're starting to sound like me. :lol: Kevin

[lemming]

[quote name='TeeLoo'][quote name='eamiller']I also doubt that apples-to-apples, neither the Haldex nor Subaru's mechanical AWD would show a difference in 99% of driving situations.[/quote] Because the LGT 5MT has 50-50 traction between rear and front wheels on normal driving conditions you get a much improved turning radius over the Volvo. That will impact your day-to-day driving situations. Admit, that you simply prefer Volvos and that's perfectly acceptable. Choosing a car is not all about technical comparisons but how you feel about the car. However if you go into the technical details of who has the better AWD systems and that Subaru's is not that much better than Volvo's Haldex then I think you're making the wrong decision.[/quote] there is some definite confusion going on because originally we were comparing the leg GT wagon to the v50 (S40 based) and this fella is talking about the s60/v70 series which DO NOT have twinscroll turbos and weigh a lot more.

[praedet]

You beat me to it Kevin. The AWD tested by C&D was heavier than a Legacy Wgn. Who knows what is included in their weight though. I think that they are at the very least, comparably hefty. Sorry, I was wrong about the twin-scroll. Surprisingly, the S40/V50 does have a twin scroll tc. I say surprisingly because when you drive it, the car does not feel like a twin-scroll. The normal benefits of increased power and torque across the entire band are only realized down low. The engine really falls off above 4.5-5K RPM. I stand by my post above, the 6-spd V50 AWD would not be able to stay with the 5-spd Leg GT Lim.Wgn., or even the Automatic version, in twisty or straight line driving. The V50 is judged by some to be slightly more luxurious, (I don’t quite agree as I don’t need the extra features and like the Legacy’s seats) but performance is not even close, and the interior is smaller. Oh well, to each their own. I wonder what those HID headlights in the V50 will look like in my rearview mirror… Ted

[TeeLoo]

[quote name='lemming']this fella is talking about the s60/v70 series which DO NOT have twinscroll turbos and weigh a lot more.[/quote] Check the specs of both cars, the V70 2.5T AWD does not weigh more than a GT Ltd 5EAT wagon, it's actually lighter. 1485 kg vs. 1585 kg (Canadian specs).

[lemming]

[quote name='TeeLoo'][quote name='lemming']this fella is talking about the s60/v70 series which DO NOT have twinscroll turbos and weigh a lot more.[/quote] Check the specs of both cars, the V70 2.5T AWD does not weigh more than a GT Ltd 5EAT wagon, it's actually lighter. 1485 kg vs. 1585 kg (Canadian specs).[/quote] the v70 t5 (not listed with the AWD curb weight!) is already 3490 pounds....the V70R with AWD is 3650...the XC70 is listed at 3700 pounds. that is a significant weight difference.

[praedet]

TeeLoo, I am really confused where you are finding your info, because everywhere I look, the AWD Volvos weigh, or exceed, 3500 lbs. The V70 T5 AWD is > 3600 lbs. Here is one website with the Leg GT Lim Wgn, the V50 AWD, the V70 AWD, and the V70 R. The V50 AWD is not listed, but you see the weight of the others. [url]http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/comparison/results.html?carid0=14955&carid1=15510&carid2=12811&carid3=12626&pagetitle=specifications[/url] And here is another. Again, no V50 AWD weight (There isn't a weight on the Volvo website either, so the C&D weight will have to be accepted later) [url]http://autos.msn.com/research/compare/default.aspx?c=0&n=4&i=0&tb=0&ph1=t0&ph2=t0&dt=1&v=t99032&v=t99242&v=t97148&v=t97150[/url] The weight for the 5-spd Leg GT Lim Sedan quoted in the C&D article, [url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=8550&page_number=6[/url], is 3402 lbs., and the documented weight from subaru is 3365 lbs. ([url]http://www.legacygt.com/viewtopic.php?t=86&start=0[/url]). A difference of roughly 37 lbs, or 1.1%. This same sedan is listed as 3365 on the MSN website also. So.... The Legacy GT Lim. Wgn 5-spd and Auto are 3435 and 3500 lbs. respectively ([url]http://www.legacygt.com/viewtopic.php?t=86&start=0[/url]). Applying the 1.1% increase (that is the greater of the 2 increases), C&D will get a weight of roughly 3473 and 3539 lbs. for the 5-spd and Auto respectively. To continue… From this site, [url]http://apps.volvocars.us/ownersdocs/2005/2005_V50/05v50_12a.htm[/url], we see that the V50 AWD ranges from 3450 lbs (I am guessing this is the 6-spd) to 3510 lbs (Auto). If we apply the 37 lbs or 1.1% increase, it is obvious that the Volvo will weigh more than the same transmission Subaru, but… C&D tested a V50 AWD Auto and got 3552 Lbs. ([url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=8432[/url]) This is actually 42 lbs, or 1.2% away from the site above. Conclusions: 5-spd Legacy GT Lim. Wgn should be at least 14 lbs lighter than the 6-spd V50 AWD, and could be greater than 20 lbs. lighter. 5EAT Legacy GT Lim. Wgn should be at least 10 lbs lighter than the Auto V50 AWD, and could be greater than 15 lbs. lighter. Now, if you have something to back up your claims(try to get all weights from the same place, or apply scaling factors as above), please post…. Ted

[outahere]

[quote name='gtguy']......Car & Driver tested a V50 T5 AWD, and curb weight is 3552, 0-60 time is 6.9 seconds, but their car was an automatic, IIRC. Oh, and slower steering, with smaller brakes........... Kevin[/quote] The small brakes on the V50 do not seem to hurt braking, as the V50 will do the 70-0mph manuever in 33ft less than the GT sedan! And the V50 will outbrake an Audi A4 1.8T (with identical tires) by 17ft. The GT has a strong motor and "weak" brakes, and the V50 has a "weak" motor and strong brakes.

[Bruno1453]

I am really confused about the legacy brakes. Makes me wonder if a change in pads will 'wake up' the brakes. :?:

[gurpman]

[quote name='praedet']The V50 is judged by some to be slightly more luxurious... but performance is not even close. I wonder what those HID headlights in the V50 will look like in my rearview mirror… Ted[/quote] I wouldn't say "performance is not even close". The the C&D comparo, the V50 beat the GT in 5-60 and had a higher trap speed in the 1/4. To me those are good indicators of everyday usable power. I'm pretty sure it beat the GT in braking and skidpad as well. I'm not saying the V50 is a better performer -- just saying they are closer than you indicated.

[outahere]

[quote name='Bruno1453']I am really confused about the legacy brakes. Makes me wonder if a change in pads will 'wake up' the brakes. :?:[/quote] Better tires and pads should yield an improvement. Its easy to find better tires, but not so easy to find better pads.

[eamiller]

[quote name='TeeLoo'][quote name='eamiller']I'm seriously looking at the S60 T5 AWD 6M over the Legacy, for the mere fact that it offers more lux with nearly the same performance as a Legacy GT LTD.[/quote] No such Volvo model, you mean S60 T5 (5MT) or S40 T5 AWD or S60R (has AWD)?[/quote] Yes, you're right.. Meant S40 (damn numerical monikers).

[TeeLoo]

[quote name='praedet']Now, if you have something to back up your claims(try to get all weights from the same place, or apply scaling factors as above), please post…[/quote] I'm just using the manufacturer's canadian web sites as my reference. Volvo V50: weight not available Volvo V70 2.5T AWD (standard with 5AT geartronic, moon roof and 16" wheels): [url]http://www.volvocanada.com/index.asp?pag=specifications&lng=en&col=anigreen&typ=cars&car=v70&sub=detail&flg=1[/url] Volvo's weight measurements have the mention "minimum curb weight" so I guess they don't publish the actual weight Legacy: [url]http://www.subaru.ca/[/url], no direct url link to the specs, crapy web site... 1 lbs = 0.454 kg Sorry for the confusion, I just think there is a wrong perception that Volvos are heavy vehicules when in reality they are not that heavy compared to others such as the Subaru Legacy.

[lemming]

[quote name='TeeLoo'][quote name='praedet']Now, if you have something to back up your claims(try to get all weights from the same place, or apply scaling factors as above), please post…[/quote] I'm just using the manufacturer's canadian web sites as my reference. Volvo V50: weight not available Volvo V70 2.5T AWD (standard with 5AT geartronic, moon roof and 16" wheels): [url]http://www.volvocanada.com/index.asp?pag=specifications&lng=en&col=anigreen&typ=cars&car=v70&sub=detail&flg=1[/url] Volvo's weight measurements have the mention "minimum curb weight" so I guess they don't publish the actual weight Legacy: [url]http://www.subaru.ca/[/url], no direct url link to the specs, crapy web site... 1 lbs = 0.454 kg Sorry for the confusion, I just think there is a wrong perception that Volvos are heavy vehicules when in reality they are not that heavy compared to others such as the Subaru Legacy.[/quote] for my part, i was referring to the v70/s60 series as absolute porky pigs in terms of curb weights. the s40/v50 should be lighter than they are...(considering the mazda 3's curb weight)....but not too bad.

[racerdave]

The big difference is tires... look athe C&D comparo... the two cars with "performance oriented" tires (Audi and Volvo), stopped well short of the all-season cars (TSX and LGT). The cars on similar tires had similar stopping distances....

[eamiller]

[quote name='TeeLoo'][quote name='eamiller']I also doubt that apples-to-apples, neither the Haldex nor Subaru's mechanical AWD would show a difference in 99% of driving situations.[/quote] Because the LGT 5MT has 50-50 traction between rear and front wheels on normal driving conditions you get a much improved turning radius over the Volvo. That will impact your day-to-day driving situations. Admit, that you simply prefer Volvos and that's perfectly acceptable. Choosing a car is not all about technical comparisons but how you feel about the car. However if you go into the technical details of who has the better AWD systems and that Subaru's is not that much better than Volvo's Haldex then I think you're making the wrong decision.[/quote] This has nothing to do with preferring Volvos. In fact, I would much rather drive the Subaru (for styling let alone "image" reasons). I have driven both (although not in 6M AWD configuration for the Volvo), and there were definitely things I like about both. I would say that the Legacy was a smidge faster (again Auto vs. Manual), and I really like the interior. The steering feel was a bit better on the Leg as well (less artificial and less kickback). However, I can't get a Legacy with the stuff I want and without the stuff I don't (like Leather). The extra optionability of the Volvo is a big draw. As far as comparing Haldex vs. Subaru's AWD system, I'm afraid you'll have to base your statement on a bit more fact. Subaru relies on a viscous coupling to transfer power front-to-rear. A viscous system is a reactionary system only. It responds, only when the speeds of the axles varies by a set amount, which causes fluid shear, which in turn causes power to be transferred. The Haldex system relies on sensors to determine wheel slippage. In addition to 4 wheelspeed sensors, it reads accelerator position, and engine torque output. It can then respond to changes before traction becomes an issue (for example when making large changes in acceleration). It also calculates how sharp the turn is based on wheelspeeds and can compensate as well. I work at a large automotive parts supplier, and have seen our chassis guys demonstrate electronic AWD+Stability control systems and they're nothing short of amazing. I've seen internal videos comparing various drive systems, and electronic AWD+Stability is king in inclimate weather. Subaru's VDC is about the same as Haldex's system + DCCD on the Volvo. I think Subaru chose a complete manual system for the 5M because it's cheaper. Viscous differentials have been around for a long time. Electronic AWD systems haven't. Also, gtguy, you may have been confused by my earlier post. I meant the S40, which has a smaller turning radius than the Legacy GT sedan, despite the fact that it's an I5 engine. The S60 is the one with the big turning radius. In the end, performance is great. That's why I'm looking at cars like the S40 T5 and Leg 2.5GT. However, I want my cake and eat it too. The new Legacy is a great deal for the money, I just wish I was able to add options that just aren't available. Plus, I get a great deal on either one (thanks to supplier pricing) which makes choosing even harder.

[lemming]

[quote name='eamiller'][quote name='TeeLoo'][quote name='eamiller']I also doubt that apples-to-apples, neither the Haldex nor Subaru's mechanical AWD would show a difference in 99% of driving situations.[/quote] Because the LGT 5MT has 50-50 traction between rear and front wheels on normal driving conditions you get a much improved turning radius over the Volvo. That will impact your day-to-day driving situations. Admit, that you simply prefer Volvos and that's perfectly acceptable. Choosing a car is not all about technical comparisons but how you feel about the car. However if you go into the technical details of who has the better AWD systems and that Subaru's is not that much better than Volvo's Haldex then I think you're making the wrong decision.[/quote] This has nothing to do with preferring Volvos. In fact, I would much rather drive the Subaru (for styling let alone "image" reasons). I have driven both (although not in 6M AWD configuration for the Volvo), and there were definitely things I like about both. I would say that the Legacy was a smidge faster (again Auto vs. Manual), and I really like the interior. The steering feel was a bit better on the Leg as well (less artificial and less kickback). However, I can't get a Legacy with the stuff I want and without the stuff I don't (like Leather). The extra optionability of the Volvo is a big draw. As far as comparing Haldex vs. Subaru's AWD system, I'm afraid you'll have to base your statement on a bit more fact. Subaru relies on a viscous coupling to transfer power front-to-rear. A viscous system is a reactionary system only. It responds, only when the speeds of the axles varies by a set amount, which causes fluid shear, which in turn causes power to be transferred. The Haldex system relies on sensors to determine wheel slippage. In addition to 4 wheelspeed sensors, it reads accelerator position, and engine torque output. It can then respond to changes before traction becomes an issue (for example when making large changes in acceleration). It also calculates how sharp the turn is based on wheelspeeds and can compensate as well. I work at a large automotive parts supplier, and have seen our chassis guys demonstrate electronic AWD+Stability control systems and they're nothing short of amazing. I've seen internal videos comparing various drive systems, and electronic AWD+Stability is king in inclimate weather. Subaru's VDC is about the same as Haldex's system + DCCD on the Volvo. I think Subaru chose a complete manual system for the 5M because it's cheaper. Viscous differentials have been around for a long time. Electronic AWD systems haven't. Also, gtguy, you may have been confused by my earlier post. I meant the S40, which has a smaller turning radius than the Legacy GT sedan, despite the fact that it's an I5 engine. The S60 is the one with the big turning radius. In the end, performance is great. That's why I'm looking at cars like the S40 T5 and Leg 2.5GT. However, I want my cake and eat it too. The new Legacy is a great deal for the money, I just wish I was able to add options that just aren't available. Plus, I get a great deal on either one (thanks to supplier pricing) which makes choosing even harder.[/quote] i know for sure that the R type volvo guys are trying hard to find a way to default the power for a more rear bias --i agree that the computer driven AWD can be better when implemented correctly. i still see the volvo execution lacking because it lacks mechanical LSDs and therefore depends on the brakes and computer or not, the default feel of the car is definitely FWD. i have driven the S60R and v70R and there is a pause in redistributing the power, computer or not. that is clearly where they could improve their system by defaulting to a more even power spread. just my opinion. i love hte idea of a T5 car (i owned a 98 s70t5 also) and the R type volvos, but they should go the extra step and reprogram the modules for neutral or rear-wheel drive bias.

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='eamiller'] As far as comparing Haldex vs. Subaru's AWD system, I'm afraid you'll have to base your statement on a bit more fact. Subaru relies on a viscous coupling to transfer power front-to-rear. A viscous system is a reactionary system only. It responds, only when the speeds of the axles varies by a set amount, which causes fluid shear, which in turn causes power to be transferred. Subaru's VDC is about the same as Haldex's system + DCCD on the Volvo. I think Subaru chose a complete manual system for the 5M because it's cheaper. Viscous differentials have been around for a long time. Electronic AWD systems haven't. [/quote] That's not true. Power is always present at each wheel, since it's a true differential, however the torque at any wheel is a multiple of torque at the other wheels. If your front wheels have no traction (no power put to ground) then there is no power to the rear wheels. If there is some slip in the front wheels, then power to the rear wheels is proportionately reduced. the viscous coupling just limits the action of reduced power to wheels that have traction at a certain (engineered) threshold of lost traction.

[outahere]

[quote name='praedet'][b]MAJOR POINT: THE T5 IS NOT A TWIN-SCROLL TURBOCHARGER!!!![/b] It is a low-pressure tc designed to boost low-end and mid-range...................... Ted[/quote] Volvo says otherwise. If you go to the Volvo USA website, and do a build up on a V50 AWD with the T5 motor, it states, under "standard features", that the T5 has a twin scroll turbo.

[outahere]

[quote name='praedet']....Lastly, the prices mentioned in that thread above are still valid. Equally speced, there is a $4K difference in MSRP. If you go by what they are selling for, it is more like $5-6K. If you then add the features everyone has complained about the Leg not having, it rises to roughly $7-9K. Think of that as mod money. With $1K, a Le GT will beat a S60R/V70R, so imagine $9K worth of improvements. Performance upgrades are more expensive on the Volvo. (Look at IPD prices) And last, why is a 6-spd better than a 5. And if that is true, why not 7-spd, or 20-spd? The posted mileage is better on the Volvo because of the lack of AWD. I have not seen where te AWD numbers are documented. Ted[/quote] I agree that the V50 is overpriced. With leather and other options, plus tax and title fees, you can pay 40K for this little AWD wagon. But since Volvo only intends to sell about 6500-7500 of these vehicles annually, they have to charge a lot to make a profit I suppose. Regarding the 6 speed, I am sure that at one time in the past people were asking "why is a 5 speed better than a 4?" or "why is a 4 speed better than a 3?". I believe the new BMW M5 with the 500hp V10 motor will have a 7 speed sequential gearbox. C&D got 20mpg overall in their testing of the AWD V50 T5, compared to 27mpg overall for the FWD S40 T5.

[praedet]

Yeah outahere, I figured that out and posted it in my second post. I guess after driving one, I just thought it didn't seem like a twin-scroll... :( [i]The difference in braking is entirely tires.[/i] I would put money on the Legacy stopping sooner with the same summer wheel/tire combination as the S40. There isn't an option with the Leg., so until they are tested on comparable summer tires, I stand by the fact that the braking system on the Legacy is better. Look at the specs on the size of the rotors/calipers, the moment arm (for the brake pad), and the weights of the two vehicles. The braking system on the Legacy is a higher performance system. (Now if only Sub. Would give it tires to prove this) The numbers were close on ¼ mile, 0-100, and 0-120 for a lot of reasons. As stated in multiple places, the 5-60 time for the Legacy appears to be a typo, and should be more along the lines of 6.6 sec. (better than the 7.1 of the S40) I am not saying the S40 is as slow as an A4 1.8T, I am simply saying that the C&D numbers were with a “European” S40 FWD. The changes to get to the car we are talking about (V50 AWD) are numerous and most lead to less acceleration(drag, wgt, AWD etc.). The 0-120 number would definitely drop below the Legacy, and the ¼ trap would drop lower. The S40 trap and ¼ mile et. are the fastest I have seen for the S40 (15.0 @ 97 mph), and by logical deduction, are also the fastest you will see for a V50 AWD. I have seen a sub 14 sec @ over 100 mph ¼ mile for a Legacy already. That might be a freakish car, but it might not. No one has a truly broken-in car yet (> 10,000 miles). I stand by the fact that unless the driver sucks in the Legacy, even a 5EAT Legacy Lim. Wgn. would beat a 6-spd V50 AWD off the line and down the stretch... Going back to the tires. Even without better tires, I think the Legacy would beat the V50 around a track. This is based on all the testing I have seen and/or done personally. The addition of a sport tire package [i]like the V50 already has[/i], would only further distance the Subaru from theVolvo… Good catch on the MPG numbers outahere. So the AWD numbers are the same or worse than the Legacy. If the options are a problem eamiller, then go with the Volvo. I know that Legacys are expensive in Canada anyways. If you like to drive spirited, I don’t know how you can choose the Volvo. With very little money you could take a base Legacy and equip it however you wanted using aftermarket parts. You would have the better looking (admittedly subjective) Legacy, and it would spank the Volvo for a lot less money. I am not saying the V50 AWD is a bad car, it just doesn’t compete with the Legacy in Performance or Value. [i][b]If you want options without performance, get a TSX…[/b][/i] Ted I edited because I thought TeeLoo had responded with the options thing originally (it was actually eamiller). I did think it was weird because of his Avatar, but oh well. The original is below in a quote anyway...