Updated VIP news & rumor

[MtnSub]

Some have posted that you must buy from dealer on your VIP form, but SOA and two dealers told me as long as I had the form, any dealer can get approval from SOA. Will test system on Monday when I put down my deposit and place my order. Now the rumor While negotiating trade in with dealer sales mgr, I told him I might only keep my new Suby two years and trade it in, if Suby intros a Leg GT/sti. He responded by saying it may be two years, but rumor/talk he is hearing is that the Spec B, H6/6MT turbo is the favorite child for a mega Leg/GT. One more clue that H6 is platform for flagship Leg.

[SUBE555]

That sounds nice, mighty nice. I think at least a few of us will only be keeping our cars 2 years then. :D

[BoxerGT2.5]

Well that depends on how much sh!t I put into the GT..:)

[SUBE555]

As much as I like mine and 5 gears, the 6-speed with gears spaced like the JDM Forester STi would allow for decent mileage with all that POWA! :lol: I can do a lot to mine, but certain hardware can only go so far. If this is the case, make sure ya'll get the [url=http://www.legacygt.com/viewtopic.php?p=41233#41233]Higher-Performance Legacy Survey[/url] filled out to get the best shot at getting what you want. :)

[bemani]

The VIP form says you need to use the dealer on the form, but my dealer gave me no trouble for using mine even though the dealer listed on the form is around 200 miles away.

[MtnSub]

Yes the VIP form says you must use at dealer on form, but SOA and other dealers told me no problem have form transfered to another dealer. You can use VIP at dealer of choice. I have 5 Subaru dealers within 30 miles of my home, two are very good, one good and the other two are terrible. One within 5 miles is terrible. Good dealer 20 miles from my home has a very knowledgable Suby sales mgr and dealer is no BS, straight forward operation. No promises on delivery they cannot keep and they know and love their product.

[B4_Maniac]

[quote name='MtnSub']Some have posted that you must buy from dealer on your VIP form, but SOA and two dealers told me as long as I had the form, any dealer can get approval from SOA. Will test system on Monday when I put down my deposit and place my order. Now the rumor While negotiating trade in with dealer sales mgr, I told him I might only keep my new Suby two years and trade it in, if Suby intros a Leg GT/sti. He responded by saying it may be two years, but rumor/talk he is hearing is that the Spec B, H6/6MT turbo is the favorite child for a mega Leg/GT. One more clue that H6 is platform for flagship Leg.[/quote] And this is ecactly why I don't want to spend any money on my GT.. Cuz, I know as soon as I buy the take off Spec B suspension..and upgrade my swaybars... SOA will bring over something more enticeing..and I just spent a boat load of money..

[Mines]

if the high performance version turns out to be a H6, i would rather have my turbo.

[SUBE555]

I think two versions may be coming Mines. If you really want the turbo version in a desired trim though, I suggest you inform them as to how you'd like it set up through the survey though. ;)

[Ridgeracer]

Honestly I could care less if they come out with something better in the coming years. I would only hope that would be the natural progression of things. There is always bigger and better on the horizon.

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='B4_Maniac'][quote name='MtnSub']Some have posted that you must buy from dealer on your VIP form, but SOA and two dealers told me as long as I had the form, any dealer can get approval from SOA. Will test system on Monday when I put down my deposit and place my order. Now the rumor While negotiating trade in with dealer sales mgr, I told him I might only keep my new Suby two years and trade it in, if Suby intros a Leg GT/sti. He responded by saying it may be two years, but rumor/talk he is hearing is that the Spec B, H6/6MT turbo is the favorite child for a mega Leg/GT. One more clue that H6 is platform for flagship Leg.[/quote] And this is ecactly why I don't want to spend any money on my GT.. Cuz, I know as soon as I buy the take off Spec B suspension..and upgrade my swaybars... SOA will bring over something more enticeing..and I just spent a boat load of money..[/quote] If you thought like that you'd never have what you want. Right when you get that "better car" SOA will bring something even better. You'll never win, so just be content with what you have and mod away....

[IwannaSportSedan]

[quote name='Mines']if the high performance version turns out to be a H6, i would rather have my turbo.[/quote] While I agree with you about preferring the 2.5T over the 3.0R H6, I think there may be a 3.0 Turbo, or maybe 3.0 TwinTurbo on it's way. Rumors only, but damn, if they are true... I can see a 3.0R Legacy coming to the US within the next 6-12 months, and a Turbo'd 3.0 Legacy STi being announced/leaked within the next 6-8 months, and showing up on dealer lots about this time next year.

[3.7L H6]

Jeff's USDM Predictions: MY06=3.0R Legacy. Hopefully in the JDM clothing, not likely. [--Any way to order the bumper, headlights, and wheels? (They are shinyer :razz: )] All EJ25s get bump in HP to around 180. WRX (EJ205) bump in HP to unknown. SUV... EZ30 motor pretty much a given now. MY07=Performance Legacy/Legacy STi. Either EJ257 motor or EZ30# - E?30# Impreza redesign MY08=Super Sambar to compete in US truck market LOL :lol:

[IwannaSportSedan]

Just curious why you think a Legacy STi will wait two full years from now? It has been out for a year elsewhere already. Plus why would subie introduce a legacy STi and a re-designed Impreza at the same time? I would think the Leg STi would steal the Impreza's thunder. Just questions... just curious. I would think 3.0R and STi Legacies might come out close together, one as luxury, the other as sport. I could see the 3.0R coming earlier, like say in the spring, because it has been popping up other places, like Australia and Europe. SUV might get an early release, like Legacy did this year in the US. Then WRX roughly 12 months later, as an early 07. WRX is their bread and butter right now, besides the Outback, which was this year's golden child. Three consecutive years, three new models, Leg/OB, then SUBE SUV, then new Impreza/WRX. power level increases for 06 sounds good to bolster sales a year before a new impreza/WRX. Trim and option additions for the legacy and Outback, offshoots from the SUV, to keep the Legacy and Outback on the boil, and Leg/OB facelifts for 08. [/Pure speculation]

[Mines]

i really doubt they will have a 3.0 turbo, the current 2.5T is already big enough. If it is a 3.0 engine, it should just stick with being NA

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='IwannaSportSedan']Just curious why you think a Legacy STi will wait two full years from now? It has been out for a year elsewhere already.[/quote] It has? Where?

[IwannaSportSedan]

[quote name='Drift Monkey'] It has? Where? [/quote] Perhaps I wasn't clear. The updated/new Legacy platform, the Legacy and Outback model in general has been out in Japan for a year already. The STi model is not out yet, obviously :D [quote name='Mines']i really doubt they will have a 3.0 turbo, the current 2.5T is already big enough. If it is a 3.0 engine, it should just stick with being NA[/quote] WHA????????? :| :?: If we get a more lux-oriented Legacy, it will probably be a 3.0R, just like the Outback 3.0R sedan, and LLBean/VDC wagons. I agree that that should remain Naturally aspirated. But a Legacy STi? No disrespect, but since when is a 2.5 Turbo "Big Enough?" Perhaps for a Legacy GT. It seems to fit well there. Everyone will be comparing a Legacy STi to other sport sedans. Lets List them: Audi S4 (Primary Target) 340HP 4.2 Liter DOHC V8, 6MT, Quattro. M3 (e46) 330HP 3.2L I6 (e90) is rumored to get a V8, probably 4.6-4.8 liters, and probably close to 400hp. G35 ~290-305HP 3.5 liter V6. If a motorsport version ever comes out, could get 4.5 liter V8. IS300 redesign will probably get IS430 option, with the GS's 4.3 V8. Acura TL (-S) I believe has a V6 with the SH-AWD system, not sure. Jag X-type is an expensive GT competitor, otherwise it is S-Type R, which is M5 territory with a supercharged V8. Mercedes C-class AMG car had a supercharged 3.2 V6, and has gone to the 5.5 liter V8. Cadillac has a 3.6L V6 6MT sport pkg, or the 350 c.i. 6 speed CTS-V The Sport pkg Lincoln LS is based on the 4.2 liter V8, shared with Jag S-type. Volvos are still using turbo 4s, as are Saabs, all with comparable horsepower to a Legacy GT. So, aside from the swedes, the rest of the sport sedan world, when talking about "special edition" halo models, which the Legacy STi would be, all have BIG engines, and healthy amounts of power. I know that the WRX STi uses the 2.5Turbo, and that is great for rally homologation, in a small, lightweight car. The STi 2.5T is a great engine, to be sure. However, Legacy STi shoppers will probably either be cross-shopping some of the other models listed above, or, in the case of the more expensive S4, M3, and Jag S-type R, will be looking for something in that idiom, but more affordable. (like ME!) A 4 cylinder will be too small, even from a marketing/psychological point of view. That market expects a healthy V6 or a V8 to play on their court. The 3.0R can't keep up with them, It can't even truly keep up with the 2.5 Turbo in the Legacy GT. A Legacy with a 2.5 Turbo from the WRX STi would be near the upper limit of it's reliable street tunability. A Legacy with a 3.0 Twin turbo, would have slightly smaller turbos than the 2.5, and would spool faster, and a turbo'd H6 would stand to make a very competitive ~370 horsepower, possibly tuneable for more. (based on a 48% power increase from the 2.5i -> 2.5 Turbo) Marketing-wise, A Twin-Turbo Flat 6 with that sort of horsepower can only be good. More power than the current S4, and probably ~$20k cheaper. Plus paralells can be drawn with the only other car remaining (The older Audi S4 had similar equipment, as well, before it got a V8 ) to have a Twin-turbo flat 6, with AWD, and a 6MT. That car costs $120k+, and wears a Porsche crest on the hood. Built well, Optioned well enough, with good image placement and marketing could make a Legacy STi, and perhaps the rest of the legacy line, and Subaru brand by association, a real contender in the marketplace. The WRX and WRX STi was the launching pad, in the sport compact market, but the Legacy STi could put Subaru in orbit.

[MtnSub]

IwannaSportSedan, You have been spending too much time doing IT support those flaky mktg guys. Great story. Great industry perspective supporting your story/strategy. Strategy is rock solid. Now you must present strategy and BP(biz plan) to board of directors for funding. Piece of cake. Kidding aside. I think you are on it.

[sigmeda]

Is the rest of the car up to handling a 300+ hp turbo flat six? Cranking the HP on a motor and making a competitive run at the likes of Audi/BMW/etc. is one thing, but producing a car with acceptable driveability and reliability is another. Think suspension, brakes, tranny, chassis (flex concerns), etc. I question if Subaru really sees an S4 and M3 (M4) as competition, when considering an STI version. The delta between those cars would be so significant. While enthusiasts like us would always choose performance and value over nameplate/brand recognition, I question if the average 35+ buyer who could afford an S4 would seriously look at the Subaru nameplate, even if it was 10-15k less but similar or better performance. Instead I think they expect the competition will likely come from the Acura/Infiniti/Lexus camps, and Volvo if they bring an S40-R, perhaps Mazda if the 6 gets awd and a non-Ford motor. And don't rule-out the Koreans, think a Daewoo Lasagna w/turbo+supercharged i4 rolling on 14"s. :lol: Maybe I'm a pessimist, but it seems the various factory-tuned models have had limited success, certainly the AMG/S/M models from Europe have endured (45k+ entry point), but the latest VW attempt is dead (R32), the Volvo s60-r is an also-ran/me-too. Domestically, the Neon wins the bang-4-buck award, with SRT versions coming on other lead sleds (300/magnum), but the Ford SVT options are scuttled, except Mustang (and no 2005 option yet), GM stepped "out" with the GTO, and all those cars are completely different classes. Besides Mitsu, the rest of the Japanese haven't attempted to bring in any models to the US in quite a while. The EVO and WRX-STI suceeded because they did things no other car could at a 30k price point. The LGT is already there, tack on 10k for sti and you block out a whole lotta buyers. --sigmeda

[3.7L H6]

All good points. Perhaps the Impreza redesign will be for MY08, 555 knows. Turbo 3.0 for near 400-400, easily the fastest current factory wagon. Sigmeda, I think that's where it comes in, a car faster than R/S4, M3/4/5, R/S6, etc. for less than the price. There is no large crazy fast "family"-style car without being heavy/luxury. Just like the Impreza STi did, the Leggy will fill a previously empty market nitche.

[Mines]

Iwannasportsedan, You have made a good point about all those high hp german cars... But how much are those??? i really doubt that people who are interested in those cars listed above are gonna be looking for a subaru. Im sorry i didn't specify, but i meant that SUBARU shouldn't go make a turbo 3.0 because, first that would be heavier and second, it would be too expensive for people's taste. I know there are many cars that are turboed beyond the 3.0 liter (look at the S600 V12 bi-turbo) and.. how much hp are u looking for in a production legacy.. with the 2.5L I was thinking the sti 300hp. The thought of a 400hp legacy never crossed my mind, it would be niCE, but i doubt subaru is looking into it.

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='Mines']Iwannasportsedan, You have made a good point about all those high hp german cars... But how much are those??? i really doubt that people who are interested in those cars listed above are gonna be looking for a subaru. Im sorry i didn't specify, but i meant that SUBARU shouldn't go make a turbo 3.0 because, first that would be heavier and second, it would be too expensive for people's taste. I know there are many cars that are turboed beyond the 3.0 liter (look at the S600 V12 bi-turbo) and.. how much hp are u looking for in a production legacy.. with the 2.5L I was thinking the sti 300hp. The thought of a 400hp legacy never crossed my mind, it would be niCE, but i doubt subaru is looking into it.[/quote] Actually, IIRC, an H6 turbo setup wouldn't way too much more... Cost though, is a whole different bag of tricks...

[MtnSub]

Sigmeda, I am a 54 yr old guy that has bought BMW and Benz for my sons, owns a BMW & Lexus and can afford AMG/M3, please no AudiS machines. I just ordered a Leg GT/Ltd wagon. I will have new wheels, tires, tint on car day after delivery, but it is the best sport wagon with biggest bang of fun on the market. Yes I may be a wierdo and the wagon factor narrows down my market segment. With some variable rate springs or some suspension upgrade, this is a fun factor car. Badges be dammed, bring on the fun. Car is better than my skills will test without suspension upgrade, but still like the glued to the road feel. I enjoy the conversation and you guys make insightful points.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Cost could be the question. However, Taking the Legacy GT, as a reference, with a few additional creature options, Like HID, or Homelink visors, or NAV, whatnot, add relatively little to the cost of the car. Body-wise, relatively little would change. Perhaps different bumper covers, fender flares, and an STi spoiler set. Not a whole lot. relatively low cost to replace one part for another, and add a couple of spoilers. Special paint colors could add a couple hundred dollars per car, maybe. The big expenditure would be the R&D, and the parts cost increases for turbocharging the H6, fuel, air, and ECU technologies. More for ensuring the trans, differentials, driveshafts, and wheel bearings are up to the load, and make sure the air intake and exhaust systems are correct. Basically powertrain engineering. Subaru seems to be quite good at that, as their reputation states. I am sure some of their rally cars, and "skunk works" experiments put out well over 400hp, so they already know what needs to be done to go to market with a car with ~370hp, and similar torque. Do you think that ~$8-$10K more per car, retail, would be enough? That would put it at ~$35k. A performance bargain to be sure. Plus it would be about 2-3k over a WRX STi, enough to differentiate the two performance offerings, and let the people who would otherwise choose a BMW have something to buy on a Subaru lot, rather than a hard-suspension, small World Rally car. If you approach ~$38-39k, it is still the performance bargain to be had, but it would be really stretching on the electronic features, and interior quality. The legacy has a great interior for 28k, but at 38k, people will start nitpicking more. For $20k less than an S4, (especially if 'spun' that way) people will know not to expect the same trim level, creature comforts, and interior quality, but yet the legacy won't exactly be a horse-drawn buggy, either. Besides that, how much more expensive is the WRX STi than the regular WRX turbo? probably a similar $8k, which again is a little bit of dress-up, and a lot more power through the driveline. Not only will increased Legacy awareness generate sales for the Legacy STi, but by association, Legacy 2.5i and GT could sell better to those in the market for a 20-30k car. It could also generate higher sales for the WRX from people who somehow have been living under a rock, or thinks that Subarus are still the same as they were 15 years ago. Increased profitability across the range, not to mention if the SUV is profitable, will help pay for the Legacy STi development, then in turn help pay for Subaru's next big thing. Just remember, Audi S4s are not a volume seller, but they do sell 1.8T Quattro sports, by image though. If there is one thing that Subaru could definitely use, is a more "mature" image car, along side the WRX STi. Plus a wagon version along side the sedan would give the market a truly unique option for sport and utility. An answer to the question Hummer posed: "define sport..." Definition provided. P.S. - If Subaru should choose to offer a niche model of their upcoming SUV, to compete with the FX35/45, touareg, Cayenne V6/V8, or Caddy SRX, a Twin Turbo H6 powerplant could be a nice little ace up Subaru's sleeve. BTW, I do tech support and IT administration for student graphic designers, architects, interior designers, etc. No business marketing types, though. I did graduate in 2002 with a B.S. in Business, for Information Systems.