BMW 530i almost as good as Legacy GT...

[BookemDano]

Read this review: [url]http://motoring.iafrica.com/carsinaction/shootout/291844.htm[/url] :D Regards, Dan.

[Drift Monkey]

This should have gone to the "Sticky: Legacy/Outback Reviews & Articles List."

[brady_bunch]

I believe it is already posted there (or somewhere else on this site). I've already read it and liked it! :) Good article. It seems the reviewers weren't at all hung up on the brand name of the vehicles either way..

[il collaudatore]

I didn't like the whole RWD with electric aid vs. AWD. Like Subaru says, "The wheels that slip to the wheels that grip" AWD is fancy electronic aids assisting the driver, so really, it's not doing it all "bareback" as the author mentions. The handling is better than a kitted out 530i??? Now I'm afraid that article hyped up the Legacy for me and that the Legacy won't meet the handling expectation. I was "test-driving" a 530i with all the goodies on a residential area at a ridiculous speed and it made me feel like a hero- no tire squeal, no body roll, no on-the-limit will-I-make-it feelings, nothing. It just did what I wanted it to. And on a straight away, I simulated a slalom, darting the car from side to side- fantastic control- no wacky handling here, again it just did what it was told to do with no fuss. And I felt like I could have gone faster afterwards. But that's on a sunny day with dry road, not a crappy day with snow, salt, and ice covered roads. In which case, the BMW's dash would be lit up and I'd be driving waaay below any posted speed limits worrying about expensive body repair quotes. :D

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='il collaudatore']I didn't like the whole RWD with electric aid vs. AWD. Like Subaru says, "The wheels that slip to the wheels that grip" AWD is fancy electronic aids assisting the driver, so really, it's not doing it all "bareback" as the author mentions. The handling is better than a kitted out 530i??? Now I'm afraid that article hyped up the Legacy for me and that the Legacy won't meet the handling expectation. I was "test-driving" a 530i with all the goodies on a residential area at a ridiculous speed and it made me feel like a hero- no tire squeal, no body roll, no on-the-limit will-I-make-it feelings, nothing. It just did what I wanted it to. And on a straight away, I simulated a slalom, darting the car from side to side- fantastic control- no wacky handling here, again it just did what it was told to do with no fuss. And I felt like I could have gone faster afterwards. But that's on a sunny day with dry road, not a crappy day with snow, salt, and ice covered roads. In which case, the BMW's dash would be lit up and I'd be driving waaay below any posted speed limits worrying about expensive body repair quotes. :D[/quote] Subaru's AWD is not electroically aided. Subaru's systems are mechanically engineered negating the need/use for traction and stablity controls.

[il collaudatore]

How's that work then? Shouldn't there be some electronic sensor that detects the slippage, thus rerouting power to the other wheels?

[D-2.5-GT]

I thought the legacy had a split 50 / 50 transfer of power to front and rear reguarless of slippage...5MT of course...

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='il collaudatore']How's that work then? Shouldn't there be some electronic sensor that detects the slippage, thus rerouting power to the other wheels?[/quote] Differentials do the work, not electronic aid. Check section 3 of the TECH REFERENCE ([url]http://www.legacysti.com/viewtopic.php?t=591[/url]) to learn more about the different types of Subaru AWD systems.

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='D-2.5-GT']I thought the legacy had a split 50 / 50 transfer of power to front and rear reguarless of slippage...5MT of course...[/quote] Power is re-routed throught the center diff upon slippage.

[apexjapan]

The manual transmission system on the Legacy (and WRX, Forester) is purely mechanical in nature, though you could also say it is partially liquid, being based around a viscous center differential. Initial torque split is at 50/50 front to rear, and it will vary by up to 35/65 in either direction. The automatic is a little more electronic in nature. Bottom line is in the results - you've got to be severly exceeding the limits of physics before you'll need the torque split front to rear to vary from 50/50 in the dry. At least in a legacy with stock power levels. In the wet, it is much the same, you've got to be doing some things that I would deem not rather safe in the first place to start experiencing enough traction loss to have it slip out of 50/50. Snow works it harder, yet when I've had proper snow tyres on, the only major slip I experienced was in cornering force or on ice. And the main reason you may get a bit slippery in the corners is because it does grip so well in a straight line that you will find yourself getting up to speeds you wouldn't normally. As good as you can get a RWD to go in the snow with electronic aids, it simply doesn't approach even a FWD, much less AWD. Yet I'd be the first to say that if 95% of your driving is off snow, then RWD is just fine for you. Yet once you drive a vehicle with significant power, AWD becomes quite sweet in the dry. Drive a 300whp, 3200lb vehicle with RWD and AWD back to back, and you'll likely never touch RWD again. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url]

[BookemDano]

[quote name='apexjapan']As good as you can get a RWD to go in the snow with electronic aids, it simply doesn't approach even a FWD, much less AWD. Yet I'd be the first to say that if 95% of your driving is off snow, then RWD is just fine for you. [/quote] Paul, I think you're saying that unless you are in snow, RWD is OK most of the time, but AWD is better. I agree with you except to expand it to wet roads too. In the Seattle area where I live, it drizzles a lot in the fall, winter and spring. Streets are wet or damp much of the time. With FWD and RWD cars that I've owned or driven, traction control retards power and you're pretty safe. But performance is reduced. With my Audi AWD (and my upcoming LGT), the AWD takes care of the problem. I don't worry about wet streets and just "rock on". Exit a hard corner and floor it! No drama; it just goes. So your AWD comments apply to our (mostly) wet streets too. Regards, Dan.

[apexjapan]

Dan, With the amount of times I've been on a race track in the rain, I have to honestly say that the main problem with traction in the rain is the tyres on the car, not which end is powering it. AWD mainly makes up for the fact that most people have relatively cheap tyres on their car - a certain FWD POS american rental comes to mind, it absolutely could not get traction in the rain. (btw, I am a semi-native of seattle, even if I am geographically misplaced at the moment) ;) What I am meaning to say is that if you currently had a decent RWD and were faced with driving in rainy, drizzly conditions most of the year (seattle, oregano coast, etc.), your money would be much better spent on actual good tyres than on getting a car with AWD. And when it does come to snow, FWD with snow tyres will get you going fast enough to endanger yourself through corners - AWD is *much* better, yes, but it does not increase your braking abilities, and only helps in corners when you are using the throttle. Up in the great North, the tow trucks call winter "audi duty time" due to the amount of people that equate AWD straightline traction with cornering and braking traction. I'm not knocking AWD at all, but it's just a mechanical tool that needs to be respected. It is overtaking RWD and FWD right now for more of fad reasons than real reasons - people are looking at Subaru as the bogey right now, and simply following suit. Subaru's AWD is one of the best affordable systems on the market, and is useful in all conditions due to the powerful nature of their recent offerings. But there are quite a few "AWD" vehicles where I consider their AWD nearly useless, many times being a converted FWD system that doesn't do much until you have done something stupid. And personally, I don't like the idea of people thinking they can get away with something stupid too often, because then they just keep doing it. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url]

[D-2.5-GT]

I went for AWD because I live in New England and was sick of trying to go up a hill in the snow in my last car and be in 3rd gear before even the slightest traction came. AWD certainly doesn't help stopping distance, but i drive like a snail in the snow anyway. Slowly but surely is my moto. Can't tell you how many times i have been passed by a car only to see them off the road in the ditch a couple miles ahead. HaHa sucks for you....Now an open parking lot with nothing to hit....completely different story, thats when driving in the snow is fun... :D

[il collaudatore]

Oh good god, I'm gonna have to take some time off to read that tech info. Thanks for the link! I still think it's going to be an uphill battle for the Legacy to match the BMW 530i in dry handling. When I drove the new 530i- none of the fancy DSC or anything like that kicked in or a light would have flashed up (or at least that's what the last gen 530i did). I think what made the difference was the active steering and the active roll stabilization systems. Either that or I'm just such an awesome driver, harnessing my sheer talent and skill to wring the full potential of the 530i :roll: I've seen lots of SUVs on the side of the road during the winter because that comfy, psychological feeling gets to them, they pass up a slower car driving as if it were a nice sunny day and... oops! AWD does make the car feel more confident in nasty weather, so that's the big problem- a lot of people equate it to invincibility- you can drive fast in rain, snow, or sleet and if anything happens the ol' AWD system will sort everything out for you. I've read countless threads on various boards about AWD drivers street racing in rain, boasting about their superior traction advantage to their FWD or RWD opponents. But there are limits and care should be taken.

[apexjapan]

[quote name='il collaudatore']I still think it's going to be an uphill battle for the Legacy to match the BMW 530i in dry handling. [/quote] On equal tyres with a touch more suspension setup than the american legacy has, an older B4 twin turbo chased down an M3 at Motegi twin circuit - which, as a high speed circuit, would favor the M3. The new Legacy has a better suspension design and setup than the older B4 twin turbo's. Once you get used to the differences between where you turn-in and apex on a Legacy vs. say, a BMW, you would be quite surprised just how quick they go. The key here is equally good rubber, as the Legacy GT in the US market doesn't ship with very good rubber. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url]

[Drift Monkey]

They should have given us factory option Potenza RE050s....:twisted:

[brady_bunch]

Agreed but WR rated tires don't have as much marketing "oomph" as ZR rated tires. :)

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='brady_bunch']Agreed but WR rated tires don't have as much marketing "oomph" as ZR rated tires. :)[/quote] Because it's not the product that matters, it's the marketing behind it!

[brady_bunch]

[quote name='Drift Monkey'][quote name='brady_bunch']Agreed but WR rated tires don't have as much marketing "oomph" as ZR rated tires. :)[/quote] Because it's not the product that matters, it's the marketing behind it![/quote] Yep, we have broken the code! hehehe

[apexjapan2]

LOL - good talk here. As someone who drove an RWD Skyline turbo for years, much of it on snow (and a fair bit of rain) and it didn't even have ABS (look ma', no airbags!) I'll say that I didn't hanker for AWD having driven heaps of them. The Skyline was a pretty darned good car in all respects, and took everything the world could throw at it (as evidenced by me keeping it for 7 years!). However, the sorter was the "motegi test" - and I am not talking about circuit stuff. There is a multi-suface area that you practice balance on, and another bit that you practice recoveries. In short the Skyline was OK but much slower than any of the Subarus there (a buddy of mine owned a WRX STi IV then, but we all swap cars to test them all out), and it wasn't just the AWD. A certain other bloke showed up in a silver BD twin turbo... In a word it was Balance (note the capital B). The Scoobies were just much more stable and when you added the AWD, killed everything else. A Mazda FD RX-7, which has great balance, was fast until ti got out of shape, then it was bye bye. There was a Porsche C4 that was a mess. Just all over the place (even when driven by a fairly handy race driver - the owner sold it shortly thereafter). Oh, and the GT-R... just to show that AWD can't save you when it goes pear shaped was great until it got sideways, then it was bye bye. My other car, also a Skyline, but a newer R34, was a handful too. Skid control could not help it - it just span like top (although not quite as fast as the Porker!). I guess what I am trying to say is that the strength of the Subaru is not just its AWD, but its balance (thanks in large part to the boxer engine, and on the new Leggy it's much lower than before too). If you know how to handle one, recovering one is quite a deal more "doable" in an emergency than many other cars IMHO. Boy that was rather long to say "It's all in the balance, babe!" Cheers :)

[fan42025]

[quote name='Drift Monkey']They should have given us factory option Potenza RE050s....:twisted:[/quote] That's right. Here in Oz we have those as standard and they are like glue in dry or wet. As for AWD - I don't think I'll ever go back to RWD or FWD ever again. AWD just has to be superior in all conditions, especially in the wet, electrnoic gizmos or not. Also, more and more cars are going over to AWD for this reason. Mitsubishi ??? (Magna is Oz) recently done so. Handles better but has put on too much weight IMHO.

[RedSectorA]

[quote name='apexjapan']Dan, With the amount of times I've been on a race track in the rain, I have to honestly say that the main problem with traction in the rain is the tyres on the car, not which end is powering it. AWD mainly makes up for the fact that most people have relatively cheap tyres on their car - a certain FWD POS american rental comes to mind, it absolutely could not get traction in the rain. (btw, I am a semi-native of seattle, even if I am geographically misplaced at the moment) ;) What I am meaning to say is that if you currently had a decent RWD and were faced with driving in rainy, drizzly conditions most of the year (seattle, oregano coast, etc.), your money would be much better spent on actual good tyres than on getting a car with AWD. And when it does come to snow, FWD with snow tyres will get you going fast enough to endanger yourself through corners - AWD is *much* better, yes, but it does not increase your braking abilities, and only helps in corners when you are using the throttle. Up in the great North, the tow trucks call winter "audi duty time" due to the amount of people that equate AWD straightline traction with cornering and braking traction. I'm not knocking AWD at all, but it's just a mechanical tool that needs to be respected. It is overtaking RWD and FWD right now for more of fad reasons than real reasons - people are looking at Subaru as the bogey right now, and simply following suit. Subaru's AWD is one of the best affordable systems on the market, and is useful in all conditions due to the powerful nature of their recent offerings. But there are quite a few "AWD" vehicles where I consider their AWD nearly useless, many times being a converted FWD system that doesn't do much until you have done something stupid. And personally, I don't like the idea of people thinking they can get away with something stupid too often, because then they just keep doing it. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url][/quote] OMG, I had to post (as you can see it's my first time here)! I've never seen anybody make such commanding comments on AWD,RWD, FWD and tires. apexjapan captured all my belief about drive wheels and tires, good job. My additinal comments: Being from the Great White North (Canada for those of you who have never seen SCTV), AWD are generally known by experienced drivers here as the cars that will go the furthest in the ditch when winter comes !!!!!!!!!!! :o Most drivers forget to learn/test (in a safe environments) the limits of their cars so they can react by using the cars capabilities when the need arises instead of hoping that the mechanical/electronic gismos will get them out of trouble when the need arises. Also it is interesting to see that manufacturer put so much money on technology to keep the cars on the road and then give it shoes not even worthy of mention, Sub's a good example with the use of RE92 from Bridgestone . Piece of crap! I replaced those early in the cars life to realise the true potential of the frame (an 02 Legacy WGN) and reduce the chances of slipping on water (boy were they slippery on water). BTW although they call them all season tires they are a compromise, unless you see snow once every 3 years I would strongly reccomend winter tires. Most don't know that an all season tire loses quite a bid of its adherence below 40 F. With regards to the debate about AWD, FWD and RWD. My biggest grief is against FWD with it's tendency of losing the back end of the car when cornering hard. Drive line is all up front thus creating a weight biais towards the front thus reducing the rears ability to hold its own on the road when cornering, usually it is instantaneous and catastrophic. A scary experience! Probably that a RWD does not give you the greatest feeling of being surefooted in water or snow, but it damn sure gives you an idea of the pavements conditions and the tires adherence to it (trottle steer is also fun)! Cheers,