Chiketkd Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I'm test driving three cars this coming Saturday in Richmond: 10:00am - Subaru dealer (Pence) '06 WRX TR '05/'06 Legacy GT 11:30am - Mazda Dealer (Pearson) '05 RX-8 6MT Whichever car I end up going with, I'll be picking it up around the end of this month. I'm really big into SCCA solo 2 autoX, and wanted to see how people have been doing with a stock Legacy in D-stock? I realize the WRX competes in this class as well as other tough competitors like the MazdaSpeed Protege. There's no Legacy GT that competes in my SCCA chapter on a regular basis so I have nothign to go off of. Thanks! -Chike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 you will need: 225/45/17 Hoosiers AS04 Cusco Front Sway Bar FOR THE WIN!!! Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiketkd Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 you will need: 225/45/17 Hoosiers AS04 Cusco Front Sway Bar FOR THE WIN!!! Keefe Thanks Keefe, However, my '06 SCCA rule book says that in the stock classes, tires must be the same size as those that come from the factory. So R-compound 215/45/17 are in, but the 225's will be out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I'll have to 2x check that rule.. most people got away with anything that can fit on STOCK wheels from 05 and back Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I didnt see that rule that you are talking about.. re-read pages 79 to 80 of 316 in the PDF file or pages 61 to 62 of 292 in the softback rule book: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 13.3 - Tires: Any tire which is OE on a car eligible for Stock Category may be used. Non-OE tires must mee the following requirements to be eligible for use in Stock Category: A. The tire must not appear on the following list which may be altered at any time by the SEB upon notification of membership. No tire models are currently listed B. No tire models will be approved for competition during the rest of the year after April 30 of each calendar year. Eash eligible tire model must meet all requirements of Section 13.3 by April 30, and must continue to meet them thereafter. A tire model will normally be determined by the designation in the TIre Guide. However, any of the following changes or similar changes (as determined by the SEB) will also be considered to be represent a new model for eligibility purposes, even if the designation does not change: change of tread pattern at either full or partial tread depth; characterization by the manufacaturer or distributor of a tire as "new" after April 30. A tire model which was previously allowed by these rules continues to be legal until specifically disallowed. Thies follow years of precedence on eligibility for discontinued tire models. If a manufacturer reintroduces a tire model which was previously discontinued, that tire will be considered a new model. Therefor, it will have to meet the rules specified in SR Section 13.3 including the April introduction date. C. The model of the tire must be listed in a current of previous two years of the Tire Guide and Tread Design Guide, or otherwise be approved by the SEB. The tire model must have Dept. of Transportation (DOT) approval. D. Within each tire model, the sizes which are available must be equally available to all competitors. Tire model variations differ from standard specification, delivered only on a limited basis, or only to selected competitors, may not be used. E. No racing tire or recap (on any casing) may be used. F. Each tire model must be sold in at least 4 rim diameters, with a total of at least 6 sizes. G. Tire must fit the allowable wheels and fender wells without modification. H. Each tire must have non-zero measureable tread depth (i.e., points where it is possible to obtain positive measurement values) as described in Section 3.3.D. Tires may not have cord visible at any time during competition. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so yea, you can fit whatever you can on the stock wheel, hell, you can even swap to lightweight wheels so long as it has the same dimensions as a stock wheel including rim width, diameter and offset +/-6mm of stock wheel (spacers are allowed). Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 one more thing For the WIN!!!: Bilstein Shock Replacements (The Spec-B Bilsteins should be allowed) or Tokico Adjustable Shock Replacements http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14339 Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopSweatinMe Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 The BMW 330 is also in D Stock. Good luck if you have to go up against a well driven one. Their stock suspension pwns ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 ^+1 but hopefully it's a driver issue thing that makes us win Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommyh Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 They can be good, but they require a very good driver and "modification" to the extent of Stock class rules. Try to find an '05 LGT 5MT "base" model sedan. It is the lightest of the LGTs. supposedly the '05 LGT 5mt "base" model wagon only weighs 55lbs more with all of that being in the rear end, which *should* help to offset the weight at the nose of the car. I have not weighed my car to give you a true answer though. Otherwise the LGT may be better in larger and more open courses than the WRX due to having more power and a longer wheelbase, but now that I think about it, the LGT has a wider range of alignment settings that can be dieled in... Martin Luther - "Who loves not women, wine and song remains a fool his whole life long." EL4NFZT7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 ^ the GT also has more power and a better gear ratio to stay in the power band longer. 3300 lbs for the GT-limited is what you are look at while I can probably say that the GT base is about close to 80 lbs less.. you can also run on 3 gallons of gas while you are at it (since you dont need 13 gallons to run at the autox, no need to lug around nearly 80 lbs worth of fuel in the back) I weighed my STU prepped GT at 3475 lbs with a 3/4 full tank. I posted a thread about what I did to my GT for STU. I came in 3rd in my region.. the person who came in 1st in my region was also 2nd in Nationals this year in STU (Mike Neary). GT doesnt have the power to compete when it's stacked up against the E36 M3, fellow STi's, and RX8... stock class is a better chance for it to win, since it's the cars listed in STU are all about 2 classes higher (BS based cars) than the GT. Good luck in your season. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiketkd Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 Thanks for the info. Not sure if I'll be competing with a LGT, as I'm also considering a WRX TR and RX-8. Re-reading the rule book, it looks like 225's are allowed on stock sized rims. That's good info to know. Thnx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 ^ RX8 in BS is tough, good luck. You can cram a set of even 245/40/17 on a 7" rim, but it's going to drive VERY sloppy. Usually, most competitors in stock classes will do two things: 1) if the car is underpower, then getting smaller tires to get more torque and run a higher get would be the thing do to 2) the car makes power, but not enough gearing, so getting taller tires will make use of the gearing some by giving it more mph most people will go with the smaller diameter tire.. but then again, your limiting factor is the width of your rim (which 7" really blows). Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prod Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 FWIW, I AutoX my LGT base wagon 5EAT on the stock RE92s. With the stock rubber, it's not very competitive. But if my tires weren't like banana peels, I think I'd be very competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 ^ Hoosiers will make the car run like it was on rails. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp3 Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I was going to create a new thread about this, but this one looks similar enough, so I'll just continue it. I currently own a 1999 2.5RS (prepped for Street Mod, but would be DSP legal without the cams) and a 2000 Legacy GT (bone stock with 4EAT). Lately, I've started to get bored with both cars (the RS is loud, stiff, and I've now owned it for nearly 8 years, but it's also very fun...on the other hand...the Legacy GT is sluggish (mostly due to the 4EAT) and overweight, but also comfy and quiet). So anyway, I've been pondering the possibility of moving up to a newer Subaru (the 99RS was bought brand new), so I was comparing the WRX, WRX TR, STi and Legacy (all 2006 models) on Subaru's website. Autocross is a big part of what the new car would be expected to do, so I had to keep that in mind when comparing data. Since I would like keep this car much more stock than the RS (at least for a little while ), Stock and Street Touring is more the focus of my attention regarding autocross performance. Anyway, while research, I found several bits of info that I found very interesting (and a few items, like the power/weight ratio info was very surprising): - The LGT weighs only 14 lbs more than the STi (despite having a LOT more standard features including dual-zone climate control, sunroof, two power seats, and a 1 gallon larger fuel tank). - The LGT makes a good bit more power out of its 2.5 turbo than the WRX does (250hp/250tq vs 230hp/235tq). Now granted, you can change this pretty easily, but not so much in DS or STU trim. - The Legacy GT has a better power/weight ratio than the WRX!!! In fact, even the *automatic* Legacy GT has a better power/weight ratio than the *manual* WRX! (If you calculate torque/weight ratio instead, the LGT still wins, but only in manual vs manual trim.) This one completely surprised the crap outta me! - The Legacy is only 10.5 inches longer than the Impreza. - The Legacy is actually slightly narrower and slightly shorter than the Impreza. - Despite being longer and having a slightly longer wheelbase (by about 5-6 inches), the Legacy and Impreza have the exact same 35.4 ft turning radius. - Despite being narrower than the Impreza, the LGT actually has a wider track than the WRX both front and rear (and it has a wider front track than even the STi!). - The LGT claims the same fuel mileage as the WRX (20/26). - Both the LGT and WRX have the same stock wheel size (important in D-Stock) which happens to be the very common (and thus easy to obtain) 17x7 size. Initially, I assumed that it was blatantly obvious that the 2.5L WRX would completely dominate the LGT in D-Stock and STU, but now I'm honestly not so sure. Anyone have any data about the 2.5L WRX (or even the 2.0L WRX) vs the LGT in D-Stock? Are there other parts of the equation that I'm just completely missing here that makes the 2.5L WRX the better choice anyway? Can they both fit similarly sized tires at stock ride height without fender or suspension clearance issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommyh Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I'm not sure how Subaru weighs their cars, but this past weekend I weighed my LGT-W "TR" (2005 base wagon w/manual trans) in what I call it's "fighting trim". With all the floormats removed, spare removed and all cubbies emptied with me in the car (~165lb dressed) and a half tank of gas, my car weighed in at 3460lbs +/- 5lbs. Subaru claims this car weighs 3355lbs. My car weighs ~3295lbs without me, but w/ a half tank. In closeing, take Subaru's weights with a grain of salt. Martin Luther - "Who loves not women, wine and song remains a fool his whole life long." EL4NFZT7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I was going to create a new thread about this, but this one looks similar enough, so I'll just continue it. I currently own a 1999 2.5RS (prepped for Street Mod, but would be DSP legal without the cams) and a 2000 Legacy GT (bone stock with 4EAT). Lately, I've started to get bored with both cars (the RS is loud, stiff, and I've now owned it for nearly 8 years, but it's also very fun...on the other hand...the Legacy GT is sluggish (mostly due to the 4EAT) and overweight, but also comfy and quiet). So anyway, I've been pondering the possibility of moving up to a newer Subaru (the 99RS was bought brand new), so I was comparing the WRX, WRX TR, STi and Legacy (all 2006 models) on Subaru's website. Autocross is a big part of what the new car would be expected to do, so I had to keep that in mind when comparing data. Since I would like keep this car much more stock than the RS (at least for a little while ), Stock and Street Touring is more the focus of my attention regarding autocross performance. Anyway, while research, I found several bits of info that I found very interesting (and a few items, like the power/weight ratio info was very surprising): - The LGT weighs only 14 lbs more than the STi (despite having a LOT more standard features including dual-zone climate control, sunroof, two power seats, and a 1 gallon larger fuel tank). - The LGT makes a good bit more power out of its 2.5 turbo than the WRX does (250hp/250tq vs 230hp/235tq). Now granted, you can change this pretty easily, but not so much in DS or STU trim. - The Legacy GT has a better power/weight ratio than the WRX!!! In fact, even the *automatic* Legacy GT has a better power/weight ratio than the *manual* WRX! (If you calculate torque/weight ratio instead, the LGT still wins, but only in manual vs manual trim.) This one completely surprised the crap outta me! - The Legacy is only 10.5 inches longer than the Impreza. - The Legacy is actually slightly narrower and slightly shorter than the Impreza. - Despite being longer and having a slightly longer wheelbase (by about 5-6 inches), the Legacy and Impreza have the exact same 35.4 ft turning radius. - Despite being narrower than the Impreza, the LGT actually has a wider track than the WRX both front and rear (and it has a wider front track than even the STi!). - The LGT claims the same fuel mileage as the WRX (20/26). - Both the LGT and WRX have the same stock wheel size (important in D-Stock) which happens to be the very common (and thus easy to obtain) 17x7 size. Initially, I assumed that it was blatantly obvious that the 2.5L WRX would completely dominate the LGT in D-Stock and STU, but now I'm honestly not so sure. Anyone have any data about the 2.5L WRX (or even the 2.0L WRX) vs the LGT in D-Stock? Are there other parts of the equation that I'm just completely missing here that makes the 2.5L WRX the better choice anyway? Can they both fit similarly sized tires at stock ride height without fender or suspension clearance issues? just re-mod your 2.5RS and run against me in STS at nationals LGT has shorter gear ratios, and a little bit more power.. the weight isnt that much different (the driver can always lose a few lbs here and there or run less gas in the LGT to make it worth while).. the 05 GT non-limited would be the choice to get over the new 06 with leather-only.. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th3Franz Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think the WRX is still more nimble and more tossable than an LGT. But, my non-limited 5MT sedan has been fun to auto-x. The main factor is still driver skill anyway. -Franz The end of a Legacy http://www.youtube.com/th3franz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 +1, if you can out-drive someone and win, what does it matter what car you did it in after that so long the car was legal to compete in the first place? Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp3 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 True, but it doesn't hurt to have the better tool for the job as well. This is especially true if you plan to do Divisionals, ProSolos, National Tours or Nationals (and I've done several Divisionals and ProSolos in the past and plan to continue doing so in the future). Do I think the LGT is the "car to have" for DS, STU, or ESP? Not really...but on paper it looks like it could certainly keep up with the WRXs in those same classes. Besides...the BMW 3-series cars are very fast (I've run against plenty of them in DSP in the past and codrove a BSP M3 (E36) last year at a local event), but they aren't exactly light cars, either (not saying they don't have other advantages, just pointing out that low weight isn't one of them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 ^ if that was true, i would just co-drive if possible.. can't say it was the car's fault by then Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp3 Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 ^ if that was true, i would just co-drive if possible.. can't say it was the car's fault by then Some of the best learning experiences I've ever had involved co-driving (usually faster drivers co-driving my RS). When someone hops in your car and goes 1-2 seconds faster, it really helps you break through that mental plateau of "this is as fast as I can make the car go" (since that has just been blatantly proven false right in front of you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiketkd Posted July 14, 2006 Author Share Posted July 14, 2006 Being the original starter of this thread, I guess I should chime in and give my $0.02... The Legacy GT is by no means a heavy car, and comes with a newly designed multilink rear suspension. However, it has been shown time and time again that that the new 2.5L WRX makes as much power (if not slightly more) than the Legacy 2.5GT - both cars make roughly 200awhp at the wheels bone stock on Cobb's in-house dyno. The Legacy and WRX both compete in D-stock where the most competitive cars are relatively light-weight, well-balanced coupes and sedans e.g. Integra Type-R, 330i ZHP, SRT-4 w/ club racer package. I ended up buying the WRX TR and haven't regretted the decision. I can live with a spartan, cheap feeling interior, in order to have a lighter-weight, more tossable car (my WRX TR weighs in at 3,150lbs in 'fighting trim' with a 1/2 tank of gas). If you want to buy a car that'll be great for taking a family around in and do well in the ocassional weekend autoX - go with the Legacy. If you want the best possible performance Subaru has to offer, go with the STI and compete in STU (where the car is extremely competitive on a national level). If you want an inexpensive, reliable car to do regular autoX's and be reasonably competitive in your class, get the WRX or WRX TR (btw, if you like the styling of the WRX but need a leather interior with a sunroof, get the WRX Limited). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp3 Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 However, it has been shown time and time again that that the new 2.5L WRX makes as much power (if not slightly more) than the Legacy 2.5GT - both cars make roughly 200awhp at the wheels bone stock on Cobb's in-house dyno. Do you know of any threads regarding this offhand? This is a very important piece of info, that could make a big difference in car choice. The Legacy and WRX both compete in D-stock where the most competitive cars are relatively light-weight, well-balanced coupes and sedans e.g. Integra Type-R, 330i ZHP, SRT-4 w/ club racer package. The ITR and SRT-4 are, indeed, pretty light, but the 330i ZHP weighs in at 3285 lbs. That's only 80 lbs less than an 06 LGT LTD, and more like 15 lbs less than an 05 LGT non-LTD. Plus they have 15 less hp and 28 less lb-ft of torque than the LGT. Of course, they do have other advantages over the LGT, like suspension design and weight distribution, but they aren't what I'd call light-weight. (The specs I listed for the 330i ZHP are based on the specs for the 2004 330i ZHP which is the first hit I found on Google.) I ended up buying the WRX TR and haven't regretted the decision. I can live with a spartan, cheap feeling interior, in order to have a lighter-weight, more tossable car (my WRX TR weighs in at 3,150lbs in 'fighting trim' with a 1/2 tank of gas). The WRX TR is definitely one of the options I'm considering. I know all about the whole "lighter-weight, more tossable car" thing...my 2.5RS is definitely both of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Some of the best learning experiences I've ever had involved co-driving (usually faster drivers co-driving my RS). When someone hops in your car and goes 1-2 seconds faster, it really helps you break through that mental plateau of "this is as fast as I can make the car go" (since that has just been blatantly proven false right in front of you). +1, Cory Ridgick did that to me in his RS vs my RS at 3 events already this season by a good 1.5 seconds Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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