Starlink DCM Dead Battery

[MoleMan]

Have not been on in a while.

 

Yesterday Got the letter for the extended warranty for the DCM for Starlink causing a battery drain.  

 

Here is my question.  I understand the DCM is getting stuck in a loop because its trying to dial into the 3G system which was discontinued.  However I do not have a active paid membership for starlink.  So the question is will the DCM still continue to dial without an active membership for Starlink?

 

I have two other Subies both 4th Gen Legacys both bought new and have always had crap Subaru Battery performance until they were changed with a bigger aftermarket battery.  The 3.6 has indeed been replaced with an EnerSys Odessey battery and have no issues at all since the changeover.  Keep in mind the 3.6 has been driven 1,000 miles since 2020 so barly no use and it is in a climate that has negative temps and is stored in a carport(Other cars get the garage!)

 

Can anyone chime in on this and answer the above question?

 

 

[ncted]

Somewhat on-topic: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/24/03/11/2342228/automakers-are-sharing-consumers-driving-behavior-with-insurance-companies

No idea what privacy policy I agreed to when I bought my 2018 Legacy, but it has the Starlink assist system which I never activated (to my knowledge).  Either way, I will not be buying any new cars from a company that shares my information in this way.  That may mean I never buy another car again, or at least a new one.

[MoleMan]

On 3/12/2024 at 4:30 PM, ncted said:

Somewhat on-topic: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/24/03/11/2342228/automakers-are-sharing-consumers-driving-behavior-with-insurance-companies

No idea what privacy policy I agreed to when I bought my 2018 Legacy, but it has the Starlink assist system which I never activated (to my knowledge).  Either way, I will not be buying any new cars from a company that shares my information in this way.  That may mean I never buy another car again, or at least a new one.

Don't think they send insurance anything.

 

I have had my car at triple digit speeds and never had anything happen with anyone from insurance.  In my area 80 is the speed limit on the highway and regular speed for most folks is 5 to ten over.

[ncted]

15 hours ago, MoleMan said:

Don't think they send insurance anything.

 

I have had my car at triple digit speeds and never had anything happen with anyone from insurance.  In my area 80 is the speed limit on the highway and regular speed for most folks is 5 to ten over.

Subaru is not one of the automakers named so far, but their privacy policy totally allows them to sell your data to data brokers, who can sell it to insurance companies or whoever.

[ncted]

I got my LexisNexis report today and no driving data was in it, so Subaru has not sold my data, at least to this point.

[MoleMan]

On 3/26/2024 at 6:56 AM, ncted said:

I got my LexisNexis report today and no driving data was in it, so Subaru has not sold my data, at least to this point.

LexisNexis is a credit reporting agency.  And most consumers do not even know about them as most credit pulls are done by the "big 3"

Selling consumer date will never be on a public reporting service or credit reporting service.

You insurance provider is who buys the information.  Everyone is raising rates.  So they can use anything as an excuse to raise rates up to and including saying your car date says you do 5 over the limit etc so on etc..

Generally you can push it and the will do a soft pull and the rate will always drop because they know issues will happen if the push the date thing.  

In our cars we have not agreed to anything.  I don't pay for starlink or any services so nothing should be tracked.  Honestly I only thing 7th Gens may be tracked but IDK.

Info know both our Lexus vehicles are not tracked at all.  

Then again I get the point. But if you are driving like an ass I also agree with insurance raising rates.  

[ncted]

8 hours ago, MoleMan said:

LexisNexis is a credit reporting agency.  And most consumers do not even know about them as most credit pulls are done by the "big 3"

Selling consumer date will never be on a public reporting service or credit reporting service.

You insurance provider is who buys the information.  Everyone is raising rates.  So they can use anything as an excuse to raise rates up to and including saying your car date says you do 5 over the limit etc so on etc..

Generally you can push it and the will do a soft pull and the rate will always drop because they know issues will happen if the push the date thing.  

In our cars we have not agreed to anything.  I don't pay for starlink or any services so nothing should be tracked.  Honestly I only thing 7th Gens may be tracked but IDK.

Info know both our Lexus vehicles are not tracked at all.  

Then again I get the point. But if you are driving like an ass I also agree with insurance raising rates.  

From the NYT article:

"the trip details had been provided by General Motors -- the manufacturer of the Chevy Bolt. LexisNexis analyzed that driving data to create a risk score "for insurers to use as one factor of many to create more personalized insurance coverage," according to a LexisNexis spokesman, Dean Carney.

Upon Mr. Dahl's request, LexisNexis sent him a 258-page "consumer disclosure report," which it must provide per the Fair Credit Reporting Act. What it contained stunned him: more than 130 pages detailing each time he or his wife had driven the Bolt over the previous six months. It included the dates of 640 trips, their start and end times, the distance driven and an accounting of any speeding, hard braking or sharp accelerations. The only thing it didn't have is where they had driven the car. On a Thursday morning in June for example, the car had been driven 7.33 miles in 18 minutes; there had been two rapid accelerations and two incidents of hard braking. "

From Subaru's privacy policy which we all agree to when we get in the car, which is somehow legal:

"3. HOW WE COLLECT INFORMATION

Connected Vehicle Services
We collect Personal Information and Non-Personal Information automatically from Connected Vehicles.  This Information includes vehicle and service-related information, including but not limited to VIN and vehicle description; vehicle maintenance information; mechanical condition or incidents involving the vehicle such as crash severity sensor data; time, LOCATION and speed of vehicle; a Vehicle Occupant’s search content;  your personal identification number (“PIN”); and information about calls related to the Services or your account, such as the date, time and duration of the call, the identity and phone number of the caller, and contents of or notes about the call. In addition, your vehicle may be equipped with one or more sensing or diagnostic modules capable of automatically retrieving, recording, transmitting, or storing certain vehicle data, including but not limited to trouble codes, tire pressure, battery voltage, coolant temperature, and service requirements. We may collect and retain data from any such modules in your vehicle.

Subaru may disclose and share Personal Information and Non-Personal Information in accordance with the practices described in this Privacy Policy. The categories of entities to whom we disclose Personal Information (including in the last 12 months) include the following:

...

API Providers and Data Providers
“API Provider” means a third party licensor of software that we include in, or use with, the Services, including an API or SDK, that provides a specialized function or service to us and that requires the transmission of Personal Information and/or Non-Personal Information to the API Provider.

“Data Provider” means a third party provider of data aggregation products and services. We may disclose Personal Information and Non-Personal Information to API Providers and Data Providers and, in some cases, API Providers and Data Providers may use Personal Information and Non-Personal Information for their own benefit.  In such cases, their privacy policies will apply to their use of such Information."

https://www.subaru.com/support/privacy-policies.html

So, it would be completely legal for them to collect and share/sell the data whether we want them to or not. And some third party can determine whether I drive safe or not, probably algorithmically, despite not having an at-fault crash or ticket in my life.

[MoleMan]

On 4/17/2024 at 7:06 AM, ncted said:

From the NYT article:

"the trip details had been provided by General Motors -- the manufacturer of the Chevy Bolt. LexisNexis analyzed that driving data to create a risk score "for insurers to use as one factor of many to create more personalized insurance coverage," according to a LexisNexis spokesman, Dean Carney.

Upon Mr. Dahl's request, LexisNexis sent him a 258-page "consumer disclosure report," which it must provide per the Fair Credit Reporting Act. What it contained stunned him: more than 130 pages detailing each time he or his wife had driven the Bolt over the previous six months. It included the dates of 640 trips, their start and end times, the distance driven and an accounting of any speeding, hard braking or sharp accelerations. The only thing it didn't have is where they had driven the car. On a Thursday morning in June for example, the car had been driven 7.33 miles in 18 minutes; there had been two rapid accelerations and two incidents of hard braking. "

From Subaru's privacy policy which we all agree to when we get in the car, which is somehow legal:

"3. HOW WE COLLECT INFORMATION

Connected Vehicle Services
We collect Personal Information and Non-Personal Information automatically from Connected Vehicles.  This Information includes vehicle and service-related information, including but not limited to VIN and vehicle description; vehicle maintenance information; mechanical condition or incidents involving the vehicle such as crash severity sensor data; time, LOCATION and speed of vehicle; a Vehicle Occupant’s search content;  your personal identification number (“PIN”); and information about calls related to the Services or your account, such as the date, time and duration of the call, the identity and phone number of the caller, and contents of or notes about the call. In addition, your vehicle may be equipped with one or more sensing or diagnostic modules capable of automatically retrieving, recording, transmitting, or storing certain vehicle data, including but not limited to trouble codes, tire pressure, battery voltage, coolant temperature, and service requirements. We may collect and retain data from any such modules in your vehicle.

Subaru may disclose and share Personal Information and Non-Personal Information in accordance with the practices described in this Privacy Policy. The categories of entities to whom we disclose Personal Information (including in the last 12 months) include the following:

...

API Providers and Data Providers
“API Provider” means a third party licensor of software that we include in, or use with, the Services, including an API or SDK, that provides a specialized function or service to us and that requires the transmission of Personal Information and/or Non-Personal Information to the API Provider.

“Data Provider” means a third party provider of data aggregation products and services. We may disclose Personal Information and Non-Personal Information to API Providers and Data Providers and, in some cases, API Providers and Data Providers may use Personal Information and Non-Personal Information for their own benefit.  In such cases, their privacy policies will apply to their use of such Information."

https://www.subaru.com/support/privacy-policies.html

So, it would be completely legal for them to collect and share/sell the data whether we want them to or not. And some third party can determine whether I drive safe or not, probably algorithmically, despite not having an at-fault crash or ticket in my life.

Key word on this is "connected vehicles"

According to Subaru the sixth Gens like ours don't connect to Starlink anymore due to the cell coverage requirements changing.  So In our case it's a non issue.

I can see seventh Gen owners having issues if they drive like asshats.

Anyway insurance rates have rose for everyone.  People are driving very aggressive as of recent.  

 

[ncted]

12 hours ago, MoleMan said:

Key word on this is "connected vehicles"

According to Subaru the sixth Gens like ours don't connect to Starlink anymore due to the cell coverage requirements changing.  So In our case it's a non issue.

I can see seventh Gen owners having issues if they drive like asshats.

Anyway insurance rates have rose for everyone.  People are driving very aggressive as of recent.  

 

Sure.  Going forward, but any data they collected before the recent 3G shutdown would still be subject to the policies.

FWIW: my insurance rates have gone down 3 years in a row.  How much they will go up is definitely going to be a factor when it comes time to get a new car.

[MoleMan]

10 hours ago, ncted said:

Sure.  Going forward, but any data they collected before the recent 3G shutdown would still be subject to the policies.

FWIW: my insurance rates have gone down 3 years in a row.  How much they will go up is definitely going to be a factor when it comes time to get a new car.

I think you are worried about something you don't need to be worried about.

Your rate depends on where you live.  Mine went down this year as well.

I have driven my 3.6 at triple digit speeds and I have seen no increase.  

Once again both me and you are not paying for starlink.  So why would Subaru waste resources on vehicles that do not have a paid subscription to Starlink?

Just saying I think you are worried about something you don't need to be worried about.  If it's such a bother find the fuse to the Starlink and pull it.

[ncted]

12 hours ago, MoleMan said:

I think you are worried about something you don't need to be worried about.

Your rate depends on where you live.  Mine went down this year as well.

I have driven my 3.6 at triple digit speeds and I have seen no increase.  

Once again both me and you are not paying for starlink.  So why would Subaru waste resources on vehicles that do not have a paid subscription to Starlink?

Just saying I think you are worried about something you don't need to be worried about.  If it's such a bother find the fuse to the Starlink and pull it.

Hell, yes, I am worried about my privacy.  I am sick of corporations constantly monetizing our activities for products that we bought from them.  Anything that has a software component is subject to this anymore.  I don't want to pay more for insurance because I have to accelerate kind of hard to get on the freeway to go to work due to a short on-ramp.  More money is why GM sold their drivers' data, and Subaru could legally do the same thing.  I'm not worried about what might happen with my data going forward.  I am concerned about what might happen with the data they already have.  When I have to buy a new car in the future, it will be even more likely they will capture and sell my data.

As for my insurance rates going up with a new car, ask anyone who has bought a new car recently how much their insurance went up compared to their previous car.

[MoleMan]

10 hours ago, ncted said:

Hell, yes, I am worried about my privacy.  I am sick of corporations constantly monetizing our activities for products that we bought from them.  Anything that has a software component is subject to this anymore.  I don't want to pay more for insurance because I have to accelerate kind of hard to get on the freeway to go to work due to a short on-ramp.  More money is why GM sold their drivers' data, and Subaru could legally do the same thing.  I'm not worried about what might happen with my data going forward.  I am concerned about what might happen with the data they already have.  When I have to buy a new car in the future, it will be even more likely they will capture and sell my data.

As for my insurance rates going up with a new car, ask anyone who has bought a new car recently how much their insurance went up compared to their previous car.

Dude,

You are really making a mountain out of a molehill.  If you a re so worried about it sell the car and get something pre Starlink.  They dont have your data.  You never signed up for a subscription. Besides that you never signed anything.  Then let's take it a step further. Our care can't even connect to the Starlink system at this point in time.

Just saying if you are so worried about it then get something older and then you don't need to stress. To be honest your rates will rise eventually. We are all in this same boat here.  Remember when a king size candy bar was $1.50 at Walmart?  Now we all need to pay almost three bucks if we want one.  Everyone is getting in on the inflation gravy train.

Insurance rates have raised about twenty percent.  Gotta remember new cars have higher parts prices if they need to be fixed.  All the new EVs are totaled if they get into an accident.  So you need to look at it this way.  You may never have an accident and are a great driver.  How many asshats do you see on the roadway regardless of age driving aggressively and speeding?  We are all paying for them when they crash the cars.

Not trying to be an asshole here.  Just saying I would not stress about anything.  If so worried talk to you insurance guy and ask him straight up what's going on.  Once again I have connected cars to various systems. My insurance has not said one time to me that I was speeding or this or that.   Just think you are stressing for nothing.

Sorta reminds me of a guy I worked with.  Very concerned as to why the credit card company was sharing his "data" to the credit reporting agencys.  Just saying.....

Go have a beer and think of how to change spark plugs on the 3.6 without wanting to murder the engineer who thought it was a good idea with the clearance.

 

[ncted]

12 hours ago, MoleMan said:

They dont have your data. 

That is an unknown.  They easily could have collected my data per their policies, and it is one bad quarter away from being sold.  Just because I didn't sign up for Starlink, doesn't mean they didn't collect any data.  The person who GM collected data and sold was not an OnStar customer.  This is the point.  Companies can collect whatever they want and sell it without telling you because it is in their privacy policy online, that they can change at any time, also without notice.

While I can appreciate your laid-back attitude on the subject, I prefer to be proactive rather than reactive.  I know I can't control everything, but I'd rather not be caught out

[MoleMan]

3 hours ago, ncted said:

That is an unknown.  They easily could have collected my data per their policies, and it is one bad quarter away from being sold.  Just because I didn't sign up for Starlink, doesn't mean they didn't collect any data.  The person who GM collected data and sold was not an OnStar customer.  This is the point.  Companies can collect whatever they want and sell it without telling you because it is in their privacy policy online, that they can change at any time, also without notice.

While I can appreciate your laid-back attitude on the subject, I prefer to be proactive rather than reactive.  I know I can't control everything, but I'd rather not be caught out

Once again dude.

If it's such an issue.  Just sell your car and get something that is not an connected to anything.  A forth Gen has nothing except for NAV.

Only person that can tell you if your insurance company used this data if in fact it was sold to them is your insurance company.  

I get your point.  But nobody can tell you what's going on other then your insurance company and it's doubtful they will be truthful. If you want push the issue with Subaru  I doubt anyone Frontline at Subaru will know the answer or even care.

Once again in your own words "they may have collected my data according to their policys"  key words here are "may have".  In comparison do you think Credit Card companies do not do the same thing?  Just think on that for a min.  These days everything is tracked to a degree. 

But maybe call your insurance guy.  If any date got sold from your car to them he/she may  tell you.  Or they will probably just tell you what you wanna hear to get you out the door.

Once again I get the point.  But if it's such a huge bother just sell the car and get something older where it won't be a worry.   And I am not being an asshole just saying if I was so worried that's what I would do.

 

[ncted]

20 hours ago, MoleMan said:

Once again dude.

If it's such an issue.  Just sell your car and get something that is not an connected to anything.  A forth Gen has nothing except for NAV.

Only person that can tell you if your insurance company used this data if in fact it was sold to them is your insurance company.  

I get your point.  But nobody can tell you what's going on other then your insurance company and it's doubtful they will be truthful. If you want push the issue with Subaru  I doubt anyone Frontline at Subaru will know the answer or even care.

Once again in your own words "they may have collected my data according to their policys"  key words here are "may have".  In comparison do you think Credit Card companies do not do the same thing?  Just think on that for a min.  These days everything is tracked to a degree. 

But maybe call your insurance guy.  If any date got sold from your car to them he/she may  tell you.  Or they will probably just tell you what you wanna hear to get you out the door.

Once again I get the point.  But if it's such a huge bother just sell the car and get something older where it won't be a worry.   And I am not being an asshole just saying if I was so worried that's what I would do.

 

I already got my reports from the available data aggregators the insurance industry is using, which showed no data had been reported to them, and then I froze those records against new inquiries in case an insurance company decided to try to use the data in the future.  Honestly, this conversation is taking more time than I spent actually dealing with my concerns.  I was just posting about it here for others potential interest.  The only other thing I have considered doing is writing to Subaru and requesting they delete any data they may have collected and to consider updating their privacy policy to have more privacy for the customer in it, but I haven't decided whether it is worth the time.