Rear Negative Camber Tire Wear Issue

[Point37]

this is on a 2013 legacy with 215k miles...the rear tires are worn on the insides badly to the point that i need to replace them which i am planning to do today...i parked the car in the garage on the flat concrete floor and aired up the tires to 35.0 psi exactly using a digital pressure gauge...i then put a level up the the base of the tire and measured how far it was in at the top...i realize there will be some bulge at the base of the tire due to the weight of the vehicle but the rears were excessive...i had an alignment done but that didn't do anything to change this...i had a mechanic look at it and he couldn't figure it out...i am hoping to sort out this camber issue...from what i understand there is no adjustment to be made...i purchased new KYB struts to replace the existing struts which are original...i will probably have a shop do the fronts at some point...right now i just want to make it so i won't need to replace the tires in a few thousand miles...what should i be looking at next?...rear control arms?

 

front drivers

front passengers

rear drivers

rear passengers

rear drivers wear

rear passengers wear

rear passengers

Edited March 3, 2023 by Point37

[Scubaboo]

Rear camber is not adjustable from the factory on this chassis.

I would look for bent arms and damaged bushings first.  

If there is nothing obviously damaged, in my experience it would then be that some of the bushings have taken a set enough to change geometry.

In other cars I have had a rear camber problem everything looked good, but when I pulled the upper arms and compared them to new parts, the bushings on the old arm were intact but the bolt holes were not centered anymore.  Replacing those upper arms put camber back in spec in those cases.

In the case of my Legacy, I was noticing a bit of negative camber at the rear over time, but I got Whiteline adjustable lower arms instead of doing the upper arms because I was putting on coilovers and wanted the adjustability.

 

 

[Point37]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:23 AM, Scubaboo said:

Rear camber is not adjustable from the factory on this chassis.

I would look for bent arms and damaged bushings first.  

If there is nothing obviously damaged, in my experience it would then be that some of the bushings have taken a set enough to change geometry.

In other cars I have had a rear camber problem everything looked good, but when I pulled the upper arms and compared them to new parts, the bushings on the old arm were intact but the bolt holes were not centered anymore.  Replacing those upper arms put camber back in spec in those cases.

In the case of my Legacy, I was noticing a bit of negative camber at the rear over time, but I got Whiteline adjustable lower arms instead of doing the upper arms because I was putting on coilovers and wanted the adjustability.

 

 

thanks so much for this info...after i got under it while looking around i assumed it would have something to do with some of the bushings...i replaced the rear struts over the weekend which didn't do much but they were due anyway...

so i should be looking at parts 20250H and 20250I first and then 20250F?...is that correct?

https://parts.metrowestsubaru.com/a/Subaru_2013_Legacy-25L-CVT-4WD-Premium-Sedan/_54106_6029048/REAR-SUSPENSION/B14-201-01.html

 

 

[Scubaboo]

Yes, I would be looking at the bushings in 20250H/20250I, they might be settled inward even if still intact.

I'd look at 20254F also possibly deflected outwards.

20250F and its other side are the toe arms and have an eccentric bolt so should not be a problem as long as they are intact and you can get toe to spec.

The rear dampers are not gonna do much alignment-wise but if they are due should feel good!

I've read on here that the upper arm can be a bit of a pain to replace, if the bushes/ball joints are good you can compensate for wear there with lower camber arms.  They were really easy to install and will probably come out cheaper than OE upper arms.

I used Whitelines but SPC are the exact same arm (they make them for Whiteline).  Only difference is in the inner bushing where Whiteline uses a poly bushing while SPC uses a spherical bearing.  

[Point37]

thanks again!...much appreciated...i will have to look into these whitelines/spc...i may end up dishing this off to my mechanic

[Scubaboo]

https://www.whiteline.com.au/product_detail4.php?part_number=KTA216A

I see they make bushings only for the upper arms as well:

https://www.whiteline.com.au/product_detail4.php?part_number=KCA326

[Point37]

thanks again!...i think i'm going to have my mechanic handle the upper control arms...i think i can handle replacing the ones in your first link if needed as long as i can find a youtube video and some torque specs

[GTEASER]

Camber alone wont wear rear tires to the extreme that you are experiencing, even with bad control arm bushings. It's usually the result of toe being out in conjunction with a little camber that causes this extreme wear. I know you said that you had an alignment, but it is possible that the toe arm ball joints or trailing arm bushings are bad.

[Point37]

4 minutes ago, GTEASER said:

Camber alone wont wear rear tires to the extreme that you are experiencing, even with bad control arm bushings. It's usually the result of toe being out in conjunction with a little camber that causes this extreme wear. I know you said that you had an alignment, but it is possible that the toe arm ball joints or trailing arm bushings are bad.

thanks...i dropped it off with my mechanic last night so hopefully he will be calling me today at some point to let me know what he found

[Scubaboo]

21 hours ago, GTEASER said:

Camber alone wont wear rear tires to the extreme that you are experiencing, even with bad control arm bushings. It's usually the result of toe being out in conjunction with a little camber that causes this extreme wear. I know you said that you had an alignment, but it is possible that the toe arm ball joints or trailing arm bushings are bad.

This also!  Toe in and negative camber is bad juju for inner tires.

OP, the lower arms are super easy, the Whiteline links even have install instructions or vids IIRC.  Or search for BRZ/86 install vids, they are the exact same part.  I cheated though and had the alignment tech put mine in right before he aligned my car lol.

 

[Point37]

1 hour ago, Scubaboo said:

This also!  Toe in and negative camber is bad juju for inner tires.

OP, the lower arms are super easy, the Whiteline links even have install instructions or vids IIRC.  Or search for BRZ/86 install vids, they are the exact same part.  I cheated though and had the alignment tech put mine in right before he aligned my car lol.

 

 

thanks!...within the past month i have been trying to get my car in order to run it for a while longer...my wife just got a new car in sept '21 so i am trying to kick this one down the road a little to try and avoid overlapping car payments but i'm assuming it won't make it cause her car payments are spread over 6 years and i doubt this car has another 6 years in it...

anyway i had mechanic #1 (cause my regular mechanic #2 was on vacation) replace my catalytic converter due to a p0420 code...i had already replaced the downstream o2 sensor last year myself and then replaced the upstream o2 sensor this year myself and i didn't want to install a spacer on the downstream just to pass inspection cause it was running poorly...i had mechanic #1 look at the negative camber issue and he told me there was no adjustment back there and to take it to the alignment place...so i then took it to the alignment place and had the alignment done before my tires were replaced...i hadn't done an alignment in a long time but they said it was only 0.5 degrees out of spec...i did not get a printout as i was not available to pick up the car...then i replaced the 2 rear tires but i put the 2 new tires up front and moved the 2 fronts to the rear...then i replaced the rear struts myself...then i had my mechanic #2 look at the negative camber issue and he basically restated what mechanic #1 said...

the way i see it i have to either pull the wheel in from the bottom or push the wheel out from the top with replacement adjustable parts...so from what i am reading and what you had said the whitelines lower arm links that you posted will allow me to do this...it does not look like the legacy is listed in the fitment list but the liberty is listed which is the same car just called something else in another country, correct?...also do you know where i can find the torque specs for the inner most bolt?...the torque specs for the 3 other bolts are in the below video 2:33 in...i was just messing around with this when i replaced the struts so i'm not too worried about installing it just want to make sure i get the correct torque specs and i adjust it properly after i install them...i may need to go get another alignment after i do this

https://youtu.be/_jR1Wi-OPOQ

edit: i just looked at the directions on the whiteline website and it says to torque the inner and outer bolts to 50 ft*lb...the haynes video above says the outer bolt torque spec is 59 ft*lb...i wonder why the difference

edit: just ordered them

Edited March 9, 2023 by Point37

[m sprank]

Looks like toe and camber like others have mentioned.  At 215k the springs could be rather worn and sagging adding to a lower ride height and excess camber.  Combined with worn bushings and having an alignment done on worn tires...  You get the alignment with new tires as the tire wear affects alignment.   You have been given good advice by others.  Aftermarket adjustable parts are not the correct answer. 

[Point37]

30 minutes ago, m sprank said:

Looks like toe and camber like others have mentioned.  At 215k the springs could be rather worn and sagging adding to a lower ride height and excess camber.  Combined with worn bushings and having an alignment done on worn tires...  You get the alignment with new tires as the tire wear affects alignment.   You have been given good advice by others.  Aftermarket adjustable parts are not the correct answer. 

thanks...i know what you mean...the issue is nothing has changed the visual camber issue as shown in the photos above and there are no adjustable parts on this car so i assume the issue is bushings...but to replace all those would cost a good deal of money even if they only replace the bushings and not the actual parts due to all the labor involved...on a 2013 with 215k miles and a severe oil consumption issue (1 qt/~500 miles)...i drive 86 miles round trip for work about 3 times a week (2 days work from home)...i'm not looking to sink a ton of money into this car...i just don't want to eat tires and be able to get it inspected...this car isn't going to last till sept 2027 when my wife's car payments are done...just trying to squeeze out a couple more years if possible...will be just over $2k now and i think that's enough spent for the time being...i'm doing triage at this point...the car owes me nothing at this point and i plan to drive it into the ground...i'm sure i've spent more money on it than it's probably worth at this point

upstream o2 sensor ~$50

catalytic converter ~$616

alignment #1 ~$75

tires & 4 tpms sensors ~$578

rear struts ~$252

whitelines ~$359

alignment #2 ~$75

Edited March 9, 2023 by Point37

[m sprank]

Springs hold up the car.  Struts stop the car from bouncing on the springs.  Complaining about maintenance items on a 12+ year old car is crying over spilled milk.  Adding replaceable arms rather than replacing worn bushings is like adding a band aid to a broken arm instead of getting it set and in a cast.  You might correct the tire wear for now, but open a can of unsafe issues as bushings continue to wear or a spring snaps. 

Also, some nationwide shops still offer lifetime alignments to cars not lowered.  Like Goodyear, Sears, etc.  Not as many as their used to be, but they exist.  I have one on my wifes 2020 Acura.  $150 the first time and I get it aligned twice a year for free ever after. 

[GTEASER]

Based on your pictures, your camber problem is sagging springs, the car looks low in the back. When springs sag, camber increases and it also tends to toe out the rear wheels causing tire wear. Get new springs and shocks first, get new tires, then have it aligned. You can get replacement rear lower control arms for cheap. Chances are the bushings on the uppers are fine.

 

[GTEASER]

Also, right rear on these cars always have about 0.5 degrees more negative camber than the left side.

[Point37]

1 hour ago, m sprank said:

Springs hold up the car.  Struts stop the car from bouncing on the springs.  Complaining about maintenance items on a 12+ year old car is crying over spilled milk.  Adding replaceable arms rather than replacing worn bushings is like adding a band aid to a broken arm instead of getting it set and in a cast.  You might correct the tire wear for now, but open a can of unsafe issues as bushings continue to wear or a spring snaps. 

Also, some nationwide shops still offer lifetime alignments to cars not lowered.  Like Goodyear, Sears, etc.  Not as many as their used to be, but they exist.  I have one on my wifes 2020 Acura.  $150 the first time and I get it aligned twice a year for free ever after. 

isn't that what i just replaced with the KYB struts with springs (link/photos below)?...or are there other springs?...not complaining just not trying to spend too much money on this car...just trying to get by for a little longer...i typically try to drive cars into 200k+ miles and keep them for 10 years or so...i've only owned 4 cars in my life at 42 years old 87 honda civic (187k miles, hand me down), 99 honda civic (totaled), 05 mazda 6 (240k miles) and 13 subaru legacy (215k miles and counting)...had good luck doing just oil changes, tires and brakes on the 3 previous cars...the subaru not so much...throttle body replacement due to a bad solenoid (done myself)...severe oil consumption issue (not worth remedying at this point, just dump a quart in when the light turns on)...car eats light bulbs (going through the wheel well is a poor design)...now the negative camber issue

i don't see any other springs in the parts diagrams in the rear

https://parts.metrowestsubaru.com/Subaru_2013_Legacy-25L-CVT-4WD-Premium-Sedan/Suspension-and-Brakes.html

41 minutes ago, GTEASER said:

Based on your pictures, your camber problem is sagging springs, the car looks low in the back. When springs sag, camber increases and it also tends to toe out the rear wheels causing tire wear. Get new springs and shocks first, get new tires, then have it aligned. You can get replacement rear lower control arms for cheap. Chances are the bushings on the uppers are fine.

 

i will talk to my mechanic about the springs and maybe cancel the whitelines order for now...i measured 27.5" garage floor to edge of top of wheel well...ride height didn't change after installing the KYBs...i think the level in the photo is 2' long...i just did the rear KYB shocks/struts/springs so those are ok (link below)

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=12562745&cc=1504361&pt=15174&jsn=830&_nck=Ekt6BqBF1pwlXdx0gYlm1eLc36x7RagAV9qWoBGYzks2kIIGcMG6lE5GS9putP7wmUxgSGze%2FrPdR46WKSRoLyomJamzzG810PitvmOfG4hbeLW2P88Iog4ksleVLx6pdxGJl%2BlbMCfYrOh8WMH%2BBwZOypuLZNlJjGfaHZLJIITueMhhY7%2FfE9vgp5IbWcewp%2FQcjwwfHIbvwQJ8xhoiEKbNhZWvd71koIWACwM1X6eJF3ulGwP3uykj9b5twfV3SNqfKKYu3prXotPUSx8Y0IC0DuJ42l%2BXz7OYT5kiEzQdagUB2FxpcRPd23er2JAZTgxk0WUKWrgB69mw3ZDiI7LryML7de7%2FhwyGuh0zUvptAQBXVqEGro1QSN9uHbUf

40 minutes ago, GTEASER said:

Also, right rear on these cars always have about 0.5 degrees more negative camber than the left side.

why is that?...my mechanic said his wife's car was the same way (was not a subaru)

Edited March 9, 2023 by Point37

[Infosecdad]

1 hour ago, m sprank said:

Springs hold up the car.  Struts stop the car from bouncing on the springs.  Complaining about maintenance items on a 12+ year old car is crying over spilled milk.  Adding replaceable arms rather than replacing worn bushings is like adding a band aid to a broken arm instead of getting it set and in a cast.  You might correct the tire wear for now, but open a can of unsafe issues as bushings continue to wear or a spring snaps. 

Also, some nationwide shops still offer lifetime alignments to cars not lowered.  Like Goodyear, Sears, etc.  Not as many as their used to be, but they exist.  I have one on my wifes 2020 Acura.  $150 the first time and I get it aligned twice a year for free ever after. 

Firestone still runs a lifetime alignment option; I use it on all of my wagons because I keep playing with the suspension.  They lose money on me

[Infosecdad]

38 minutes ago, Point37 said:

i will talk to my mechanic about the springs and maybe cancel the whitelines order for now...i measured 27.5" garage floor to edge of top of wheel well...ride height didn't change after installing the KYBs...i think the level in the photo is 2' long...i just did the rear KYB shocks/struts/springs so those are ok (link below)

 

 

 

Measure from center of wheel to top of wheel arch so you can factor out wheel/tire differences and have a comparable measurement to others.

 

I would bet there is more camber on the right because most of the time there is only a driver and when the left side is settled a little more with the weight it balances out (for the most part).

[m sprank]

If the kybs were a package (new to me) then yes you replaced the springs. Cars have more camber and toe to one side from the factory. Reason is weight of driver and pitch or road. Roads are pitched for water run off and alignment  is offset to accomodate. 

[Point37]

57 minutes ago, Infosecdad said:

Firestone still runs a lifetime alignment option; I use it on all of my wagons because I keep playing with the suspension.  They lose money on me

good to know...thanks...unfortunately i already bought the tires

55 minutes ago, Infosecdad said:

Measure from center of wheel to top of wheel arch so you can factor out wheel/tire differences and have a comparable measurement to others.

 

I would bet there is more camber on the right because most of the time there is only a driver and when the left side is settled a little more with the weight it balances out (for the most part).

i aired up all 4 tires to over 35 psi and let air out till they were all 35.0 psi exactly (cold) using the same digital pressure gauge then i measured from garage floor to top of wheel well arch before i installed the struts/springs...27.5" before and after installation...not sure it needed springs

19 minutes ago, m sprank said:

If the kybs were a package (new to me) then yes you replaced the springs. Cars have more camber and toe to one side from the factory. Reason is weight of driver and pitch or road. Roads are pitched for water run off and alignment  is offset to accomodate. 

yes they were a package as shown in the link i posted above from rock auto...thanks for the info...roads are crowned in the center to pitch water to the sides...for local roads that is a factor since you only drive with the road pitched to the passengers side...highways you drive on both sides of the crown...i would say 90% of my driving is highway to/from work and i'm in the left lane a good amount of the time at 80mph...i wonder if that had anything to do with it...anyway i guess i'll be giving the replacement control arms a shot

Edited March 9, 2023 by Point37

[Infosecdad]

4 hours ago, Point37 said:

good to know...thanks...unfortunately i already bought the tires

You can go to a firestone complete auto care and get the alignment as a standalone. For my wagon it would have been a little over $100 for a single alignment or $200 for a lifetime (I could go every day if I wanted to).  I think the pricing varies by vehicle and location, but if you play with it at all the lifetime is worth it in my opinion.  

[Scubaboo]

20 hours ago, Point37 said:

 

thanks!...within the past month i have been trying to get my car in order to run it for a while longer...my wife just got a new car in sept '21 so i am trying to kick this one down the road a little to try and avoid overlapping car payments but i'm assuming it won't make it cause her car payments are spread over 6 years and i doubt this car has another 6 years in it...

anyway i had mechanic #1 (cause my regular mechanic #2 was on vacation) replace my catalytic converter due to a p0420 code...i had already replaced the downstream o2 sensor last year myself and then replaced the upstream o2 sensor this year myself and i didn't want to install a spacer on the downstream just to pass inspection cause it was running poorly...i had mechanic #1 look at the negative camber issue and he told me there was no adjustment back there and to take it to the alignment place...so i then took it to the alignment place and had the alignment done before my tires were replaced...i hadn't done an alignment in a long time but they said it was only 0.5 degrees out of spec...i did not get a printout as i was not available to pick up the car...then i replaced the 2 rear tires but i put the 2 new tires up front and moved the 2 fronts to the rear...then i replaced the rear struts myself...then i had my mechanic #2 look at the negative camber issue and he basically restated what mechanic #1 said...

the way i see it i have to either pull the wheel in from the bottom or push the wheel out from the top with replacement adjustable parts...so from what i am reading and what you had said the whitelines lower arm links that you posted will allow me to do this...it does not look like the legacy is listed in the fitment list but the liberty is listed which is the same car just called something else in another country, correct?...also do you know where i can find the torque specs for the inner most bolt?...the torque specs for the 3 other bolts are in the below video 2:33 in...i was just messing around with this when i replaced the struts so i'm not too worried about installing it just want to make sure i get the correct torque specs and i adjust it properly after i install them...i may need to go get another alignment after i do this

https://youtu.be/_jR1Wi-OPOQ

edit: i just looked at the directions on the whiteline website and it says to torque the inner and outer bolts to 50 ft*lb...the haynes video above says the outer bolt torque spec is 59 ft*lb...i wonder why the difference

edit: just ordered them

Yeah this is one area you need to sort out, hard to get more years out of it if it eats tires like that.

The Whiteline parts will give you exactly the adjustability you are looking for, and the lower arm is the easiest option.

Yes the Liberty it is in Oz.  Some differences here and there from the US but identical for this part.

I'd follow the Whiteline torque specs since it's their bushings and eccentric bolt system on those areas now.  

 

 

[Point37]

14 hours ago, Infosecdad said:

You can go to a firestone complete auto care and get the alignment as a standalone. For my wagon it would have been a little over $100 for a single alignment or $200 for a lifetime (I could go every day if I wanted to).  I think the pricing varies by vehicle and location, but if you play with it at all the lifetime is worth it in my opinion.  

nice!...thanks

2 hours ago, Scubaboo said:

Yeah this is one area you need to sort out, hard to get more years out of it if it eats tires like that.

The Whiteline parts will give you exactly the adjustability you are looking for, and the lower arm is the easiest option.

Yes the Liberty it is in Oz.  Some differences here and there from the US but identical for this part.

I'd follow the Whiteline torque specs since it's their bushings and eccentric bolt system on those areas now.  

 

 

thanks...they just shipped so i should have them soon...probably get into it next weekend...i plan to follow the torque specs in their directions for the 2 end bolts and the haynes torque specs for the 2 inner bolts

[Scubaboo]

1 hour ago, Point37 said:

nice!...thanks

thanks...they just shipped so i should have them soon...probably get into it next weekend...i plan to follow the torque specs in their directions for the 2 end bolts and the haynes torque specs for the 2 inner bolts

Yeah 7 ft-lbs shouldnt be a big deal either way.  Good luck!

And yes, you need to get an alignment for sure after that.  As mentioned already here, camber changes come with toe changes with these multilink rears.