ECU / Self-Shutoff Control Help!!!

[darkstarxi]

I bought my 2007 spec.B in Colorado in June '16 from someone who claimed to know very little about the car. They said there was a well-known issue with the factory navigation system that drained the battery dead if the car was left to sit, un-started, for 24+ hours. I did some research and found that this was indeed a documented issue with these cars.

 

This was not much of an issue for me because my car almost never goes more than a day without me using it anyway. I drove the car home (back to New Jersey) without issue and began to really go through everything with a fine-tooth comb when I got home. It was at this point that I found an odd toggle switch hidden behind the driver's side kick panel. I traced the toggle switch back to the ECU on the passenger's side floor, where I found that the wire for the self-shutoff control (Connector B136 Terminal 23) had been cut and this toggle switch had been wired to the ECU instead.

 

Now I was confused as to why this would be done and upset that I was lied to. I called the person that I bought it from and they denied knowing anything about it. They told me that they bought the car from a private lot and that they were told it came to Colorado from Texas. Around the same time, I was going through all of the paperwork that came with the car and found a service record from someone with a Texas address. I contacted this previous owner of the car and he was able to shed some light on the subject.

 

He told me that he had taken the car to a "Subaru specialty shop" and something went wrong while they were working on it, messing up the ECU. This was their work-around (instead of replacing the ECU, he guessed, because the ECU was difficult to find used and very expensive to replace with new at the time). He knew about the toggle switch and said that when he traded the car in, the toggle switch was not hidden under the kick panel, but rather, mounted to the kick panel in plain site. He told me that he had to turn the switch to the on position before turning the key on and turn the switch to the off position after turning the key off in order for the battery to not be drained if left to sit.

 

I re-mounted the switch in plain site on the kick panel and have been doing the same ever since without issue. I'm at the point now where I'd very much like to fix this issue, partially because I want things to be right and (maybe) more importantly, because I'd like to install an Accessport soon and am hesitant to do so with this MacGyver stuff in place.

 

CAN ANYONE MAKE ENOUGH SENSE OF ALL OF THIS TO ADVISE ON HOW TO CORRECT IT? Why was this wire cut? How can I make it all right?

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH in advance to anyone who can help me out. See attached from FSM indicating location of wire that is cut and tapped into (in green). If any more details or photos are needed, let me know and I'll be glad to provide them.

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by darkstarxi

[Max Capacity]

If you can't get an answer here, I'd recommend you reach out to Mike at http://www.AZPinstalls.com He's close to you and knows these cars really well.

 

You can tell Mike I sent you. He helped me out 10 years ago. So he's been around for a long time.

[darkstarxi]

If you can't get an answer here, I'd recommend you reach out to Mike at http://www.AZPinstalls.com He's close to you and knows these cars really well.

 

You can tell Mike I sent you. He helped me out 10 years ago. So he's been around for a long time.

 

 

Thank you. Can anybody else shed some light on this?

Edited December 4, 2020 by darkstarxi

[apexi]

I don't recall seeing that battery drain issue posted on the forums over the years, where'd you read/confirm that? I'd try to find the source of the parasitic draw and go from there, verify that it is in fact coming from the navigation unit, etc. That just doesn't sound right/normal, and I would think subaru would have some sort of fix for that, a tsb, I don't know.

 

Parasitic draw vid, lots more out there I'm sure

[darkstarxi]

I don't recall seeing that battery drain issue posted on the forums over the years, where'd you read/confirm that? I'd try to find the source of the parasitic draw and go from there, verify that it is in fact coming from the navigation unit, etc. That just doesn't sound right/normal, and I would think subaru would have some sort of fix for that, a tsb, I don't know.

 

Parasitic draw vid, lots more out there I'm sure

The navigation is not actually the issue. Maybe it wasn't clear in the OP but I was misinformed by the previous owner. They either lied to me or they didn't know any better.

 

The parasitic draw is the result of something in the ECU remaining on unless the toggle switch is turned off after the car is off.

 

I would like to do away with the toggle switch and have it operate as it once did.

[apexi]

Yeah I reread your first post, but I don't think there's really anything we can do here.

 

You can do a parasitic draw test and verify that it is in fact the ecu fuse where the draw is coming from. You can send the ecu out to be diagnosed and repaired since it sounds like something got F'ed up, or just take it to a shop and get a second opinion on all of this. It looks like used ecus are pretty cheap on ebay, granted I can't find one using the part numbers given on parts.subaru.com (https://parts.subaru.com/p/Subaru_2007_Legacy-25L-TURBO-6MT-4WD-GT-Limited-Sedan/Engine-Control-Module/49500723/22611AL81C.html)

 

Could also take a 4 hour road trip up to avoca, ny too haha, bet eric o could figure it out and his labor rate is only like $70 an hour

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtAGzm9e_liY7ko1PBhzTHA

[BrandonspecB]

I bought my 2007 spec.B in Colorado in June '16 from someone who claimed to know very little about the car. They said there was a well-known issue with the factory navigation system that drained the battery dead if the car was left to sit, un-started, for 24+ hours. I did some research and found that this was indeed a documented issue with these cars.

 

This was not much of an issue for me because my car almost never goes more than a day without me using it anyway. I drove the car home (back to New Jersey) without issue and began to really go through everything with a fine-tooth comb when I got home. It was at this point that I found an odd toggle switch hidden behind the driver's side kick panel. I traced the toggle switch back to the ECU on the passenger's side floor, where I found that the wire for the self-shutoff control (Connector B136 Terminal 23) had been cut and this toggle switch had been wired to the ECU instead.

 

Now I was confused as to why this would be done and upset that I was lied to. I called the person that I bought it from and they denied knowing anything about it. They told me that they bought the car from a private lot and that they were told it came to Colorado from Texas. Around the same time, I was going through all of the paperwork that came with the car and found a service record from someone with a Texas address. I contacted this previous owner of the car and he was able to shed some light on the subject.

 

He told me that he had taken the car to a "Subaru specialty shop" and something went wrong while they were working on it, messing up the ECU. This was their work-around (instead of replacing the ECU, he guessed, because the ECU was difficult to find used and very expensive to replace with new at the time). He knew about the toggle switch and said that when he traded the car in, the toggle switch was not hidden under the kick panel, but rather, mounted to the kick panel in plain site. He told me that he had to turn the switch to the on position before turning the key on and turn the switch to the off position after turning the key off in order for the battery to not be drained if left to sit.

 

I re-mounted the switch in plain site on the kick panel and have been doing the same ever since without issue. I'm at the point now where I'd very much like to fix this issue, partially because I want things to be right and (maybe) more importantly, because I'd like to install an Accessport soon and am hesitant to do so with this MacGyver stuff in place.

 

CAN ANYONE MAKE ENOUGH SENSE OF ALL OF THIS TO ADVISE ON HOW TO CORRECT IT? Why was this wire cut? How can I make it all right?

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH in advance to anyone who can help me out. See attached from FSM indicating location of wire that is cut and tapped into (in green). If any more details or photos are needed, let me know and I'll be glad to provide them.

 

 

So that wire is the ECU ground control for the main engine control relay. The ECU will ground that wire which closes the contacts in the relay and sends power to the ECU, the coils, injectors, DBW throttle relay and some other stuff which I can't remember off hand. You can see where it sends power to if you follow E, G and H on the sides of that schematic.

 

So I can see putting a switch in that wire as a type of manual anti theft device or, if the ECU really isn't working properly, then perhaps something in the ECU is fried causing that wire to be grounded permanently. That would send power to the engine even without the key in the ignition.

 

You can try closing the switch with the key off and checking for power at an injector connector. If you get 12v then the ECU is activating that relay when it isn't supposed to. If you don't get 12v, but then turn the igntion on and then get 12v I'd say it's operating how it's supposed to and you could get rid of the switch entirely.

 

Hopefully this helps out somewhat.

Edited December 6, 2020 by BrandonspecB

[darkstarxi]

So that wire is the ECU ground control for the main engine control relay. The ECU will ground that wire which closes the contacts in the relay and sends power to the ECU, the coils, injectors, DBW throttle relay and some other stuff which I can't remember off hand. You can see where it sends power to if you follow E, G and H on the sides of that schematic.

 

So I can see putting a switch in that wire as a type of manual anti theft device or, if the ECU really isn't working properly, then perhaps something in the ECU is fried causing that wire to be grounded permanently. That would send power to the engine even without the key in the ignition.

 

You can try closing the switch with the key off and checking for power at an injector connector. If you get 12v then the ECU is activating that relay when it isn't suppose to. If you don't get 12v, but then turn the igntion on and then get 12v I'd say it's operating how it's suppose to and you could get rid of the switch entirely.

 

Hopefully this helps out somewhat.

 

Thank you very much. I will try what you advised this weekend and report back.

[DaveWaters]

If it turns out the ecu is applying ground to the main relay with the key off this is what I would do if it were my car. I’d get a standard bosch type automotive relay and wire the split wire at the ecu one side to #87 and one side to #30 (doesn’t matter which one goes where) then wire an ignition source to #85 and chassis ground to #86. This will close the ecu wire allowing ground to the main relay when you turn the key on and rest at open when key is off. Make sure to use an ignition source not accessory as ignition is on during crank and accessory is not. 87a will not be used on the relay.

 

[apexi]

This is pretty much what you should do with your car

 

What if that main relay b47 is just bad and stuck open like in the vid

[darkstarxi]

So that wire is the ECU ground control for the main engine control relay. The ECU will ground that wire which closes the contacts in the relay and sends power to the ECU, the coils, injectors, DBW throttle relay and some other stuff which I can't remember off hand. You can see where it sends power to if you follow E, G and H on the sides of that schematic.

 

So I can see putting a switch in that wire as a type of manual anti theft device or, if the ECU really isn't working properly, then perhaps something in the ECU is fried causing that wire to be grounded permanently. That would send power to the engine even without the key in the ignition.

 

You can try closing the switch with the key off and checking for power at an injector connector. If you get 12v then the ECU is activating that relay when it isn't supposed to. If you don't get 12v, but then turn the igntion on and then get 12v I'd say it's operating how it's supposed to and you could get rid of the switch entirely.

 

Hopefully this helps out somewhat.

 

@%1;

 

Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner. Life has been very..hectic. I tried getting an injector connector disconnected to do what you advised but they're tough to reach without getting a bunch of stuff out of the way first and unfortunately, I'm not equipped to do that at this time. Can you suggest something I can check for power at instead that is very simple to access?

 

Thank you!

Edited December 9, 2020 by darkstarxi

[BrandonspecB]

This is pretty much what you should do with your car

 

What if that main relay b47 is just bad and stuck open like in the vid

 

Could be. It's a big brown relay located to the right of the glove box if I remember right. Turn key on, flip switch on and off and see if it clicks.

 

@%1;

 

Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner. Life has been very..hectic. I tried getting an injector connector disconnected to do what you advised but they're tough to reach without getting a bunch of stuff out of the way first and unfortunately, I'm not equipped to do that at this time. Can you suggest something I can check for power at instead that is very simple to access?

 

Thank you!

 

I forgot that the fuel injectors have metal covers that are a pain to remove. My engines don't have them, so injectors are really easy to access. How about the MAF sensor. Should be a yellow/blue stripe wire that receives power from that relay.

 

For the record, after looking over the schematic, the coils don't receive power from the main relay.

[darkstarxi]

Here's what I got...

 

MAIN RELAY FUNCTIONALITY

 

IGN OFF / SWITCH ON - I hear 3 clicks from behind the glove box as soon as I turn the switch to the ON position

 

IGN ON / SWITCH OFF - I hear 1 click from behind the glove box when the key is turned to ON with the switch in the OFF position - the radiator fans also both come on

 

IGN ON / SWITCH ON - I hear 2 clicks from behind the glove box when the key is turned to ON with the switch in the ON position

 

 

 

POWER DISTRIBUTION

 

I tested the yellow MAF sensor wire w/ the blue stripe (per BrandonspecB's recommendation)

 

IGN OFF / SWITCH OFF - 0 volts

IGN OFF / SWITCH ON - 12 volts

IGN ON / SWITCH OFF - 3 volts & radiator fans both come on

IGN ON / SWITCH ON - 12 volts

 

 

 

What do you guys make of this? Thanks a lot for all of your help so far!

[apexi]

Man this is over my head, curious to hear what brandon says, but I'll throw out my .02.

 

Honestly, part of me would really want to fire the parts cannon and throw a new relay in there for $24 shipped from rockauto, but that would kind of be dumb.

https://parts.subaru.com/a/Subaru_2007_Legacy-25L-TURBO-6MT-4WD-GT-Limited-Sedan/_54102_6029168/RELAY--SENSOR-ENGINE/B13-096-01.html

https://www.rockauto.com/en/partsearch/?partnum=25232AA020

 

If you're smarter than me, you can pull that relay and test it. There are some youtube videos on how you'd do that, still kinda sort over my head. I think this is the relay, brown as brandon said, passenger kick panel by door

https://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5312787&postcount=8

 

If the MAF wire has power with the switch on, doesn't that mean a lot of other stuff should have power too, as shown in the attached image? Injectors, cam position sensor, drain valve, wastegate and purge control solenoid valves, all with the ignition off, and just switch on.

 

I don't know how hard it is to get the the o2 sensors on the turbos, but I'd be curious to see if there's power at the front/rear o2 sensor connectors too.

[BrandonspecB]

I'm thinking that relay is good. To test it further just put your hand on it and feel if it clicks on and off. I'm betting the initial diagnosis of the ECU being bad is correct and the shop did a work around with the switch to avoid replacing it.

 

I'm thinking your options to get rid of the switch and return back to normal functionality would be to get a new ECU or do as Dave said and replace that switch with a relay. Have the relay triggered by an ignition source and close that ground wire to the ECU. Or rather than going to the ECU you could just have it ground to the chassis. This is what the ECU is doing anyways (more likely the ECU ground goes up to the block.) Either way would trigger the main relay only when the ignition is turned on, just like stock.

[darkstarxi]

I'm thinking that relay is good. To test it further just put your hand on it and feel if it clicks on and off. I'm betting the initial diagnosis of the ECU being bad is correct and the shop did a work around with the switch to avoid replacing it.

 

I'm thinking your options to get rid of the switch and return back to normal functionality would be to get a new ECU or do as Dave said and replace that switch with a relay. Have the relay triggered by an ignition source and close that ground wire to the ECU. Or rather than going to the ECU you could just have it ground to the chassis. This is what the ECU is doing anyways (more likely the ECU ground goes up to the block.) Either way would trigger the main relay only when the ignition is turned on, just like stock.

 

Thank you.

 

I'm thinking the main the relay is good too. I had my hand on it during my testing, but I couldn't feel for certain whether it was clicking.

 

I'd prefer to fix it the right way, but that's cost dependent. If I go the "get a new ECU" route, is it as simple as out with the old ECU, repair the cut wire, and in with the new ECU? Is dealership programming or any extra steps required that would contribute to expenses? I'm assuming it's not as simple as out with the old and in with the new and if it's complicated/expensive, then I'll just go the "replace the switch with a relay" route.

[apexi]

I would advise against just throwing a new/used ecu into the car without further testing. I mean, if you get one and can return it that's one thing, but that's a big gamble if not.

 

Again, you really need to do a complete/thorough parasitic draw test.

 

How and why would the ecu be telling that circuit to stay on when the car is off? It's possible that the old shop is correct, but it's also possible that they just didn't know what the problem was, and just pointed the finger at the ecu. Trust, but verify.

[Infosecdad]

You would have to program a new ECU to match your VIN.

 

Most dealers I talked to in TN wanted $300 to do it and wouldn't promise not to brick it.

There are DIY ways to clone an ECU, but I would go down the parasitic draw test first.

 

ECU replacement should be right near the end of your options.

[BrandonspecB]

I just don't think it's necessary to go through every circuit on the car and test for a power draw when there is a big power draw coming from the main relay.

 

The B136 23 terminal should not be grounded when the ignition is off. But it is, which is activating the main relay and is sending power to a lot of components that shouldn't have power when the ignition is off. The ECU isn't working like it's supposed to. The switch is taking control of that wire away from the ECU, so there isn't a power draw when the ignition is off. That same wire is the one I cut and gave to the Haltech to control the main relay for my EZ30 swap. It should only ground when the ECU gets an ignition switch signal.

 

This is why I think there is something wrong with the ECU. One thing I worry about is what caused the ECU to act this way? Was it just a freak accident or did something short out at one point or maybe a back feed? Would the same thing happen to a new ECU?

 

If it were me, since I have a spare ECU, I would throw it in there and see if it fixes it. If the spare gets fried...well, then I'd throw a relay in and forget about it.

[darkstarxi]

I just don't think it's necessary to go through every circuit on the car and test for a power draw when there is a big power draw coming from the main relay.

 

The B136 23 terminal should not be grounded when the ignition is off. But it is, which is activating the main relay and is sending power to a lot of components that shouldn't have power when the ignition is off. The ECU isn't working like it's supposed to. The switch is taking control of that wire away from the ECU, so there isn't a power draw when the ignition is off. That same wire is the one I cut and gave to the Haltech to control the main relay for my EZ30 swap. It should only ground when the ECU gets an ignition switch signal.

 

This is why I think there is something wrong with the ECU. One thing I worry about is what caused the ECU to act this way? Was it just a freak accident or did something short out at one point or maybe a back feed? Would the same thing happen to a new ECU?

 

If it were me, since I have a spare ECU, I would throw it in there and see if it fixes it. If the spare gets fried...well, then I'd throw a relay in and forget about it.

 

Agree 100%. I'll never know what caused the ECU to act this way...and I don't have a spare ECU...and getting a replacement involves programming, etc...so I'll skip to the "throw in a relay and (hopefully) forget about it" part.

 

Thanks.

[darkstarxi]

Trying to do this now with a relay.

 

Can anyone recommend an IGN source that's in close proximity to the ECU that I can tap into?

 

Thanks!

 

Edit: Maybe something that has power with ACC AND with IGN would be best?

[blackobxt]

Don’t you need something that will have power also during crank?

[darkstarxi]

I'm looking through the "Engine Control Module (ECM) I/O Signal" section of the FSM but I'm not 100% clear on how to interpret it.

 

For instance, I see "Ignition Switch"

Connector B135 at ECM

Terminal 19

10-13V Ignition SW ON (engine OFF)

12-14V Engine ON (idling)

 

Is this a good option?

[darkstarxi]

Don’t you need something that will have power also during crank?

 

Yes. I think that's why I need an IGN source and not just an ACC source.

[darkstarxi]

My first attempt at making this work is a failure.

 

I have the cut self shutoff control wire connected to terminals 87 and 30 of relay.

I have 85 and 86 terminals connected to the bracket that the ECM is mounted to (for ground) and the "Ignition switch" wire at ECM Connector B135 Terminal 19 (for power).

 

When I turn the key to ON, I get the radiator fans running at full speed. When I turn to START, no crank. This is what I would get previously if I turned the key to ON with the switch in the off position. The relay does click with the key in the ON position.

 

Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

Edited December 30, 2020 by darkstarxi