Battery issue

[2015 Tungsten]

How long would you expect the battery to last in a 2015 Legacy?

 

I just drove home on Thursday from a 1500 mile trip. On Friday I went out to get some groceries; no issues with the car starting. Today I went to start it and the battery was dead. Currently on a tender to see if I can get it going again.

[waldguy]

Original battery is marginal at best.

 

 

 

Mine's in for 4+ years, but I'm quite sure this fall will be its last. Put in a group 34 600 or more CCA and you'll be fine.

 

 

 

https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/gen-6-battery-replacement-278179.html

[WILLINH]

My battery lasted 2yrs 10 months. Put a 34 in it.

[chowser51]

Mine lasted less than four years.

 

Did you get the battery charging update done by the dealer? Won’t help your bad battery much but will help when you replace it.

[WILLINH]

Yes got the update after a call to SOA. Had 49,000 on it and soa paid for the battery and update even though I was out of warranty. SOA was excellent to deal with.

[2015 Tungsten]

My battery was toast after 4 years. Had to put a new one in.

[gathermewool]

Have you had your ECM updated to fix the poor battery charging issue?

 

//

 

Compatible replacement groups

 

Group L W H in^3

24 10.3 6.8 8.9 26

34 10.3 6.8 7.9 25

25 9.1 6.9 8.9 24.9

 

Group 25 is stock.

 

Group 24 has the largest gain in overall size

 

Group 34 is popular, but seems to be more expensive than 24, for some reason.

 

//

 

Hookup your maintainer once/week to make your battery last for a very long time. Even with my daily 22-mile round-trip, my battery will take a charge every single week.

Edited May 14, 2019 by gathermewool

[ammcinnis]

Group 34 is popular, but seems to be more expensive than 24, for some reason.

Not necessarily. Many brands these days seem to offer either Group 34 or Group 24, but not both. Group 34 is the more common size, since it's been standard in most Chrysler Corp. vehicles for decades. A lot of Group 34 batteries now come with a clip-on 1-inch spacer to exactly match Group 24 dimensions, which simplifies things for both manufacturers and stocking distributors ... two battery Group sizes for the price pf one.

Edited May 14, 2019 by ammcinnis

[gathermewool]

That's probably true. I'm just going by a spread-sheet I made, with the three sizes from every major battery source.

 

I never checked actual availability, since I don't need a battery just yet. I just wanted to be prepared with options, for when the times comes.

[YeuEmMaiMai]

the battery in my 2014 was replaced last year with 4 years and 6 months on it. Put a Napa Gold in it and noticed that 1 problem went away immediately.. intermittent long crank before start.

 

 

 

Napa Gold are made by East Penn and those guys are great battery makers. The last ones I got (Dekka) lasted 8 years in my 02 CLS and the one in my wife's 2003 car is 5 years old and still going strong.

[ammcinnis]

Napa Gold are made by East Penn and those guys are great battery makers.

East Penn also makes the automotive batteries sold under the "Duracell" brand label, and specs on the Duracells are identical to the equivalent batteries sold under East Penn's own "Dekka" brand. Among other retailers, Duracell automotive batteries are sold by Sam's Club at substantial discounts.

Edited May 17, 2019 by ammcinnis

[ehsnils]

Whenever getting a new battery - find the battery with the best CCA and Ah values that still fits the tray.

[gathermewool]

Whenever getting a new battery - find the battery with the best CCA and Ah values that still fits the tray.

 

I'm not so sure about finding one with the highest CCA any longer. Usually, this means that there are more, thinner plates than an equivalent, lower-CCA battery.

 

I tend to go by battery maker (East Penn), Reserve Capacity, and weight as my determining factors.

 

In my spreadsheet I have cost per [insert parameter here], but I don't pay attention to it. I'd rather pay a little more and get a battery that will hopefully last longer. I don't see rough roads often and temps here are moderate, so I've got pretty much ideal conditions for a battery to last a long time.

 

The fact that I precisely charge my batteries often also helps.

[hkshooter]

 

 

 

The fact that I precisely charge my batteries often also helps.

 

Please do explain how you do this.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[DrD123]

Group 34 is popular, but seems to be more expensive than 24, for some reason.

Check the performance specifications of the batteries - odds are, if they are charging more for a size, it has better specs (higher CCA, longer reserve, or both) - also, keep in mind that the outside dimensions of the battery are important, but the performance is really driven by the internal parts of the battery (plate dimensions, plate count per cell, ratio of grid to paste volume in each plate, etc.) - those determine electrochemical performance. (and that sort of detail isn't going to be readily available to a consumer unless you start pulling apart batteries)

[tmoney468]

Please do explain how you do this.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

Probably a battery tender. We have one that we use for our 4 wheelers and such, and our Tundra. Works pretty well for maintaining the battery

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gathermewool]

Please do explain how you do this.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

i always appreciate some good skepticism...

 

I use a DC power supply (5A, 30V). In many regards, I do believe that I'm smarter than any tender.

Edited May 19, 2019 by gathermewool

[waldguy]

Batteries typically degenerate over time with sulfates which form on the plates.

Have never done this myself, but many users report some success in overcharging to dissolve the sulfates, extending the life.

 

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it

 

Recovery example here:

Edited May 19, 2019 by waldguy

[gathermewool]

I perform an equalizing charge a few times per year.

 

I fully charge the battery at a constant 14.4VDC (DC PS in V-regulate) until amps drop to minimal, then raise voltage to 15.0VDC for half an hour. I'm sure I could go longer, but I'm a wimp.

 

Also, be aware that equalizing charges corrode or remove plate material. This is good, since it will shed the layer that is sulphated, exposing fresh surface area (more lead for more reaction area). This is also potentially bad, because it also sheds good plate material. I figure that half an hour of equalizing voltage every few months will do more good than bad, and not enough bad to worry about.

Edited May 19, 2019 by gathermewool

[capttris]

I do the same thing with a constant voltage battery charger, several times a year. I'll connect the charger overnight (especially on a weekend when I'm not getting up early the next morning, and/or if I'm working from home and not driving the car for a period). Typically I'll let it float around 13.3V overnight, and in the morning the charger is down to .1A. Then I'll equalize charge which kicks it up to 14.2V or so, and do that for a few hours.

Good to go.

I had a Die Hard Gold in my Honda Prelude for over 7 years before proactively swapping it out of service, and then used that battery in my kid's power wheels jeep for another 2 years of heavy abuse.

With my Legacy, I'm not about to rick going that long, no matter what, especially with my work schedule and 2 kids, but you get the idea. If you take care of your battery it should last longer.

[Norskie]

Batteries typically degenerate over time with sulfates which form on the plates.

Have never done this myself, but many users report some success in overcharging to dissolve the sulfates, extending the life.

 

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it

 

Recovery example here:

 

Many battery maintainers have a desulfate mode which does that.

[DrD123]

Lead acid batteries form lead sulfate by design (it's the reaction product at both plates) - charging reduces the sulfates back to lead or lead oxide (depending on which plate we are looking at) - the lead sulfate issue that leads to lead acid battery performance issues is what is called "hard sulfation" - in a nutshell, you eventually form lead sulfate domains that can no longer be electrochemically accessed, and thus reduced back. Recovery charges can absolutely help, but most consumer grade systems don't do that in a meaningful way (you can certainly get at that with a DC power supply, as gathermewool is doing) - however, there will always be a portion of the lead sulfate that is cut off, and that will continue to grow - as a result, recovery charging becomes less effective with time, and eventually is unable to recover a meaningful portion of the capacity. There are things that can be done to help with performance, and increase the cycle life (the ALABC has a bunch of work they have funded - I haven't worked on lead acid for a few years (did a bunch of R&D under a CRADA with East Penn Manuf.), so not sure where things are - but adding excess carbon to the negative plate can significantly improve the cycle life of the battery under many use conditions)

 

for regular use of batteries, other degradation mechanisms are usually more important - such as grid corrosion (which can be exacerbated depending on how you charge - the resistance to that sort of decompostion can be improved with the alloy used in the grids and bus - more of a concern/area where you spend money with larger batteries used for stationary power for wind, solar, etc., though - much larger batteries! One of the battery farms I was working with a number of years back for Puerto Rico had plates which were nearly 3' square! Lead acid batteries aren't great in the power density area (since lead is heavy) but for stationary power, they are often a very viable technology to pursue)

[gathermewool]

I do the same thing with a constant voltage battery charger, several times a year. I'll connect the charger overnight (especially on a weekend when I'm not getting up early the next morning, and/or if I'm working from home and not driving the car for a period). Typically I'll let it float around 13.3V overnight, and in the morning the charger is down to .1A. Then I'll equalize charge which kicks it up to 14.2V or so, and do that for a few hours.

Good to go.

I had a Die Hard Gold in my Honda Prelude for over 7 years before proactively swapping it out of service, and then used that battery in my kid's power wheels jeep for another 2 years of heavy abuse.

With my Legacy, I'm not about to rick going that long, no matter what, especially with my work schedule and 2 kids, but you get the idea. If you take care of your battery it should last longer.

 

Those voltages are too low. Each of the six cells in a battery is different, and there are higher-voltage and lower-voltage cells that nominally equal what you measure at the posts (12.6-12.7VDC for a "full" battery). There's a range of voltages that are required to ensure the lowest-voltage cell isn't undercharged, and the highest-voltage cell isn't overcharged; the concern is loss of active plate material due to sulphation and corrosion (actual material loss that falls to the bottom of the battery), respectively.

 

Charging:

 

Now, even at 14.4VDC (which I think is the perfect mix to ensure each cell is adequately charged, but with minimal corrosion of the high cell(s).

 

Even at 14.4VDC (charging voltage), the lowest cell(s) may still have an unsatisfactorily low specific gravity, which will continue to degrade that cell due to continual sulphation. This is ONLY if the lowest cell(s) were already degraded. A perfectly healthy battery will have all cells brought up to fully-charged with a normal charge cycle at 14.4VDC. If you don't check the specific gravity of each cell following a charge cycle, then you have no way to know if the battery is healthy or requires an equalizing charge.

 

Equalizing Charge:

 

If you don't have the means or don't want to check specific gravity of each cell, then a periodic equalizing charge may be beneficial. The name of the charging scheme is literally to equalize the specific gravity of all cells, including the lowest one(s). The frequency of equalizing charges and the time at 15.0VDC need to be limited, because the high cells WILL experience corrosion. The goal is to bring the low cells back up as quickly as possible, while limiting this corrosion of the high cells to as little as possible.

 

If you have a newer or healthy battery, with an equal specific gravity in each cell, then performing an equalizing charge is a waste of time and excessively corrodes all of the cells. There is no benefit. For the average person, I'd recommend an equalizing charge unless you're able to dial in the voltage to a constant 15.0VDC, understand the risk, and can monitor the battery during the entire time. EVEN BETTER, if you're still unsure about doing it, I'd recommend that it only be performed AFTER you determine that there's a discrepancy between cells based on ACTUALLY checking the specific gravity of each cell.

 

I'm going to start actually checking the specific gravity of my cells going forward to determine when an equalizing charge is required. Up to now, I've just been doing one very infrequently and for a very short period of time.

 

Maintenance Voltage (Trickle Charge):

 

Finally, the 13.3VDC you were using is OK for maintaining a full battery. I personally choose 13.9VDC, based on what was recommended from battery university, but I believe 13.3VDC is good, too. This is obviously only AFTER fully charging the battery.

 

If you only use 13.3VDC (all the time), then low cells will continue to remain under-charged and degrade even further.

 

//

 

Dumb Chargers:

 

Watch the needle until amperage drops to nothing, then immediately disconnect. Don't attempt to charge more or "equalize" using a dumb charger. Do NOT leave these unattended. Even on the lowest 1A setting they will eventually reach "full" charge and then continue to ramp up voltage. I've forgot about one once or twice and sway > 17VDC! The acid was vigorously bubbling/off-gassing Hydrogen!!!

 

EXPLOSION WARNING: if you have this happen to you, turn off the charger and let it sit for a while, especially if you're not in a place with great ventilation. Don't turn on/off or connect/disconnect anything electrical. The chances for an explosion are low, unless your battery has been gassing for a while and is in a more-enclosed space, but it's a risk I would never take. Heck, I wait for a bit before disconnecting my power supply, just as a precaution.

 

Smart Chargers

 

Best bet for someone who wants to maintain their batteries, but doesn't want to do anything more than hook something up and turn it on. Even the best don't seem to fully charge a battery, however. Based on my testing using a Prologix PL2520, it tended to drop to maintenance voltage way too quickly. I'm sure there are varying reasons for this (maybe liability, marketing fastest charging capability, etc.) but it seems as if this particular charger will get you to 80% quickly (as they all do), then maintain charging voltage for several hours (guessing 90-95% charge), then go into maintenance mode. Using my power supply, it seems to take several hours more before current drops to a low value. Letting my PS sit overnight at 14.4VDC will see the current drop even further, to what is basically parasitic draw (the battery is still hooked-up to the car) and whatever the battery will take, but can't absorb any longer (energy that effectively goes to the generation of a very small amount of heat).

Edited May 20, 2019 by gathermewool

[ammcinnis]

Smart Chargers

 

Based on my testing using a Prologix PL2520, it ... will get you to 80% quickly (as they all do), then maintain charging voltage for several hours (guessing 90-95% charge), then go into maintenance mode. Using my power supply, it seems to take several hours more before current drops to a low value.

As another data point, I have a CTEK "smart" charger that I now prefer to use in most situations. Simplifying somewhat, CTEK uses the following 3-phase charging protocol:

 

• Bulk Phase: Constant-current charging at the charger's rated current output until the battery terminal voltage rises to 14.4 volts (default) or 14.7 volts (user selectable, primarily for low temperature situations or to accommodate different battery chemistries). CTEK states that this phase takes the battery state of charge to approximately 80%.
  

 

• Absorption Phase: Constant-voltage charging at 14.4/14.7 volts until current acceptance drops to some unspecified low level. CTEK states this phase should take the state of charge to above 95%.
  

 

• Maintenance Phase: Constant-voltage float charging at 13.6 volts, which will maintain the state of charge at 95-100%. After up to 10 days on float charge, the charger switches to long-term maintenance mode, in which it passively monitors battery terminal voltage. If the battery voltage drops below some unspecified level, the charger will wake up and resume constant-current charging at 1.5 amps until the terminal voltage again reaches 14.4/14.7 volts, at which point the charger will go back to sleep. The primary benefits of intermittent maintenance charging are reduced water loss and reduced plate corrosion.
  

I also have a couple of inexpensive "smart" Battery Tender chargers by Deltran, which follow generally the same charging protocol as the CTEK, but with fewer user controls. I use these chargers primarily for long-term maintenance of batteries subject to infrequent or seasonal use.

Edited May 22, 2019 by ammcinnis

[gathermewool]

Good point about temperature compensation. I have to actually look-up this value and apply it. The nominal 14.4 VDC is for something like 70F. In the middle of winter, I use something closer to 14.4VDC (my garage never gets too cold).

 

My garage also never gets much warmer than 70F, but I'll apply a lower voltage than 14.4VDC if it does.