dgoodhue Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Are you sure those snow tire were not worn? Did you buy used snow tires like blizzard where the soft ice portion wears really quickly? The 30-0 braking times are been tested by many sources to be halve the distance between new snow tires and new all season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyR Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Tires start wearing out as soon as they're put on the car and snow tires wear faster because most winter driving is still on dry pavement and people leave them on well into the Spring in case of late season storms. I'm sure there's a measurable difference with new snow tires under test conditions but they never seemed to make any noticeable difference in real world driving over all seasons. Not for me at least. More trouble than they're worth but I know there is disagreement on the issue. There's certainly no down side to snow tires except for the added cost and inconvenience of changing them out and storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoozeRS05 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 In my experience, as soon as I took the step to a dedicated summer and winter setup my confidence driving changed to the point I'll never drive with an A/S tire again above the Mason Dixon line. Summer tires 8 months a year and winter tires the other 4 months. Been about 5 years doing this now and it's saved my ass at least a couple times. EB's Subaru journal - 2005 LegacyGT Wagon & 2014 Forester FB25 (2008 specB - RIP) IG@legacygtliving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Tires make a huge difference. There's no way that any all-season will perform as well as a dedicated winter tire - that simply makes no sense, Bobby. With our '14 FXT (w/ OEM all-seasons ~5/32"; TC off, X-Mode on) parked next to our '08 Civic LX (with Conti snows ~8/32"), there was an obvious difference. The FXT got stuck, with all four tires spinning, trying to find grip. The Civic plowed right through the same amount of snow and made it all the way out. People who saw this gave me a hard time about the Subaru supposedly being such a good snow vehicle. '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoozeRS05 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 ^ Agreed, and moving forward is one thing. Stopping, maneuvering and emergency avoidance with confidence is the point of good tires based on whatever conditions - dry, wet, warm or cold. EB's Subaru journal - 2005 LegacyGT Wagon & 2014 Forester FB25 (2008 specB - RIP) IG@legacygtliving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyR Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Like I said, there's lots of different opinions on this issue because there are so many variables. A lot of snow tires out there are more worn than the all seasons they replace. I've seen people swap their near new all seasons for their trusty old worn out snow tires expecting an improvement. As for handling, even if new snow tires do improve stopping, maneuvering and emergency avoidance in the snow, they are inferior to all seasons on dry pavement where most of the driving happens. Another thing to consider is insurance. I can only speak for myself but I've never been offered a discount for having snow tires and I always used to ask. Just doesn't enter into it. Maybe the accidents stats don't support the theory. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 I hear you, man, but snow tires being better than all-season tires in snow and ice is not an opinion - it's a fact. Whether people run too-worn snow tires has nothing to do with what you and I do. I also don't plan to propagate bad practices by selling my snow tires when they reach ~5/32", but that's not to say that the installer won't re-purpose them anyway... '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyR Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Tires make a huge difference. There's no way that any all-season will perform as well as a dedicated winter tire - that simply makes no sense, Bobby. With our '14 FXT (w/ OEM all-seasons ~5/32"; TC off, X-Mode on) parked next to our '08 Civic LX (with Conti snows ~8/32"), there was an obvious difference. The FXT got stuck, with all four tires spinning, trying to find grip. The Civic plowed right through the same amount of snow and made it all the way out. People who saw this gave me a hard time about the Subaru supposedly being such a good snow vehicle. Civics and other front drivers are impressive in the snow, no doubt, with or without snow tires. All my front drivers were awesome in the including a Camry, multiple Tauruses and a Contour. I can't explain why your Subbie couldn't dig out but maybe your snow tires were worn. I can tell you that my Outback was a beast in the snow. As I said before, lots of tread is the secret and worn out snows are no good to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Whenever changing to winter tires - they also need to be broken in each season since the surface is a bit hard and slippery - so don't wait until the snow and ice comes, do it a few weeks before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstater Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Like I said, there's lots of different opinions on this issue because there are so many variables. A lot of snow tires out there are more worn than the all seasons they replace. I've seen people swap their near new all seasons for their trusty old worn out snow tires expecting an improvement. As for handling, even if new snow tires do improve stopping, maneuvering and emergency avoidance in the snow, they are inferior to all seasons on dry pavement where most of the driving happens. Another thing to consider is insurance. I can only speak for myself but I've never been offered a discount for having snow tires and I always used to ask. Just doesn't enter into it. Maybe the accidents stats don't support the theory. YMMV. I tell you not to judge a subaru AWD's performance in the snow unless you have snow tires installed. So you counter with, 'whatabout' snow tires that are worn out? Don't criticize how your car handles in the snow without snow tires that have adequate tread. In some parts of Canada (Quebec) snow tires are actually mandated for winter driving, I'm sure there is zero reason for that? Will the silliness continue next summer when you complain about hydroplaning in the rain because your all seasons are bald? Seriously, first world problems and a new hobby is needed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyR Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Well, I am judging my "Subaru AWD's performance in the snow" without snow tires installed and, as I have said, it's just fine, thank you. I have not "criticized how my car handles in the snow without snow tires that have adequate tread". Just the opposite actually. My opinion is that snow tires aren't worth the trouble on a Subaru and just don't make enough of a difference to justify the cost and inconvenience. This is not a new debate and there are many people on both sides of it. That is usually the sign that there is no definitive position on a subject. Has it occurred to you that tire companies are very anxious to convince you of the benefits of snow tires, meagre though they may be? They have had less luck convincing insurance companies. And I won't be complaining about hydroplaning because my all season tires are not bald and never will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norskie Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 Our Legacy has < 10k miles on the Goodyear Assurance tires. Our WRX has 50% of life left on X-Ice tires. BY FAR the WRX is a better winter car, it has more traction and control than the Legacy, despite the worn snow tires. The WRX snow tires are 235mm wide vs. the Legacy's 225mm all-seasons and they're STILL better in the snow. We have new Conti all-season's for the WRX (245mm) which are OK for tiptoeing in the snow but not much more. On our Outback, when both sets of tires were worn, I figured "let's try the newest best all-season performance tires" ... Conti ECWS or something, maybe I can manage without also buying snow tires? They got good reviews from the BMW owners I know in Chicago. Nope. First snowfall and the wagon was fishtailing around like it had RWD. In my experience there is absolutely no question that snow tires are effective. I can only speak from my personal experience, which is 32 years of driving in MN, OR and Norway. I'll take FWD+Snow tires over AWD+All season tires any winter, given the same wear of tires. Stopping and turning is more important than going forwards. In Norway there's no choice. Law mandates when to run which tires. In the Oregon snow zones it's either AWD+Snows or chains and chains suck. The majority (95%?) of my neighbors in southeast MN don't have snow tires, and they manage OK. We don't get much snow here (maybe 60 inches a year?), no mountains, and roads are plowed salted and sanded before 7am. FWD+A/S's are fine ... it just means being more selective when and where to travel and driving appropriately. Driven sanely, the Legacy is fine in the snow but at the first hint of slippage the TC/VSC/CVT brings down the hammer on anything fun. Next winter it will have snow tires, and I suspect that the hammer will just be more effective in reigning in the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstater Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 I could post about 20 scientifically tested reviews of All Seasons vs Snow tires. It would be pointless, because 'seat of the pants observations' always win over evidence provided from testing the same car on the same surfaces back to back using different tires. All Seasons are ok in many conditions, they do not have the grip of snow tires on icy roads or snow. It would be impossible for them to do so, because the tire compound is completely different between the two, tread patterns are also different but it is mainly the hardness or softness of the rubber that comes into play (assuming both sets of tires have the same treadwear left, I have actually heard on good authority that new winter tires are much better than worn out all seasons... ha ha ha ha ha). For some weird reason nobody can understand, Summer performance tires work really well on hot pavement, and suck balls in the snow or winter. I can't understand this, myself (/s), but I am sure when summer rolls around we will have a new discussion about how all season tires really do perform much better than summer tires on your wifes WRX... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, checking out of the ridiculousness now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Sorry let me rephrase, by larger battery I mean a larger CCA capacity. The fact that they replaced my battery and still was not starting my car was of concern. Additionally, other owners are having the same issue here. There should be other battery options from Subaru especially if the customer opts for the cold weather package on their vehicle. my co worker has an outback with a Subaru battery and when it was -27F, car barely cranked over...it was so bad that the actual cluster went out as the car cranked. My car a legacy with the same power train started right up without issue but I have an East Penn battery in there... 625CCA at 0F so more than enough to turn a FB25 over at -29F East Pen makes Dekka Napa Legend so either one is a great choice. I the Napa legend gold this time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 my co worker has an outback with a Subaru battery and when it was -27F, car barely cranked over...it was so bad that the actual cluster went out as the car cranked. My car a legacy with the same power train started right up without issue but I have an East Penn battery in there... 625CCA at 0F so more than enough to turn a FB25 over at -29F East Pen makes Dekka Napa Legend so either one is a great choice. I the Napa legend gold this time around. Excellent advice. I'm still on the OEM batteries in our '14 FXT (66k miles) and '15 Legacy (45k miles), but when they go I won't mind paying extra for a Napa The Legend. When I sold my '08 Civic to family (for cheap), I made sure to replace the OK battery with a The Legend, since they'll let the car sit for long periods and won't maintain the battery at all. '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 yeah I replaced mine this year in September as car was 5 years old and I was not wanting to chance it on 6 and dead car in winter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amason Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 IMHO, snow tires are an unnecessary expense on this vehicle and I've driven in a lot of snow. I bought snow tires and rims for our older Outback and used them for a few years but never replaced them because they just didn't make any noticeable difference over good all season tires. The vehicle was like a tractor in the snow either way. It didn't even stop any better in the snow with the snow tires. The most important factor from my experience is tread depth, not tire compound. If your tires are worn out you're going to have problems in the snow either way. All that said, do NOT use summer performance tires in the snow and ice. That is a completely different kettle of fish. TO doesn't get real snow . But it'd be sensible to get an all-weather tire like a Nokian WR there, as there's plenty of cold/wet/slush. I was on my brand new Conti ExtremeContact Sport (excellent wet tires) for the first snowfall this past winter, and it was dicey. OP: I think I've been in one CVT Subie, and wasn't paying attention, but is there no Neutral position? The OBXT was terrible in that regard; on A/S tires it was like driving a RWD Isn't that the fun part? For example, at low speeds, in the OBXT, WRX or 535, coming around a corner and experiencing understeer, I give it more throttle, the front's hook up and pulls me back on track, while the DSC blinks furiously. I should try it later with the DSC off. You lost me there, I've never had that experience, but I don't have DSC (or anything else). Yes, why not play around with DSC off and see if you like it better? I turn off the traction control in every car I ever drive, just 'cause. My little form of protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amason Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 my co worker has an outback with a Subaru battery and when it was -27F, car barely cranked over...it was so bad that the actual cluster went out as the car cranked. My car a legacy with the same power train started right up without issue but I have an East Penn battery in there... 625CCA at 0F so more than enough to turn a FB25 over at -29F East Pen makes Dekka Napa Legend so either one is a great choice. I the Napa legend gold this time around. I've got a battery I got used, and made fit. Synthetic oil (semi-synthetic would work too) makes a big difference, and I use a battery blanket and block heater for really cold starts (-15C/5F), unless I'm not near an outlet, in which case it's always started anyway, although not as happily/quietly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amason Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 Like I said, there's lots of different opinions on this issue because there are so many variables. A lot of snow tires out there are more worn than the all seasons they replace. I've seen people swap their near new all seasons for their trusty old worn out snow tires expecting an improvement. As for handling, even if new snow tires do improve stopping, maneuvering and emergency avoidance in the snow, they are inferior to all seasons on dry pavement where most of the driving happens. Another thing to consider is insurance. I can only speak for myself but I've never been offered a discount for having snow tires and I always used to ask. Just doesn't enter into it. Maybe the accidents stats don't support the theory. YMMV. So if you mostly drive on plowed wet or dry roads, don't get snow tires, get performance winters or the Nokian all-weathers I mentioned earlier, and you'll have the best of both worlds. Since my summers aren't getting worn during winter I'm not sure how the tire company comes out ahead (although I suppose the rim company is happy), and it means I don't have to compromise on summer performance either. Win/win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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