TwoTone Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 So the dealer is really going to say - "hey I don't want that extra money that you are willing to give me for new rotors?" That is one strange business model. Ok smarty pants. It's been a few years since I've worked at a dealer, but here's how it works, not how you want it too. The resurfacing was done for free under warranty. If the owner had said hey I'll just pay you for the new rotors instead, the dealer would have said, then you'll need to pay the labor as well. You can't just mix and match. Dealers get audited by the manufacturers. If Subaru saw new rotors go on which weren't warranty, but the labor was charged to Subaru as warranty, the dealer would have gotten dinged. So just because you want it to work one way doesn't mean it does. I've seen it a ton of times, something is getting warrantied and the owner wants to pay the difference for an upgrade and they can't- it's not just Subaru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urdrwho Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 True. It might be that they resurfaced them because it was deposits on them and they were otherwise fine and not warped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urdrwho Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Got ya now about Subaru policy. Now for a story on warranty work. My Volvo V50 T5 was to receive a PCV extended warranty replacement. Due to the fact that Volvo has a PCV "system" it would have been a $500 job. Need to remove intake mani and other bits. They replacement includes new intake O rings, a new PCV catch container, new hoses, etc. After the job was completed I drove the car home and felt the tube that was part of the warranty work and it was hard as a rock. They didn't replace it. Called the Volvo dealer and they said, we only replace it if we feel it is needed. I said that Volvo USA paid you for the part and labor to replace it. They said come back and they'll do it again...replacing the hose. So I understand the company is paying for labor but it seems that the dealer has something to say in the matter. If the dealer decides that the rotors are so warped they can't take enough off to true them up, would the dealer be contractually required to still use the old rotors? I've never looked at the newr subbie rotors and have no idea how beefy they are. So I still think the business model is odd because it doesn't give the owner a choice to give them more money for a better or newer part but it is all contract stuff so the consumer is left sitting in the wings. Ok smarty pants. It's been a few years since I've worked at a dealer, but here's how it works, not how you want it too. The resurfacing was done for free under warranty. If the owner had said hey I'll just pay you for the new rotors instead, the dealer would have said, then you'll need to pay the labor as well. You can't just mix and match. Dealers get audited by the manufacturers. If Subaru saw new rotors go on which weren't warranty, but the labor was charged to Subaru as warranty, the dealer would have gotten dinged. So just because you want it to work one way doesn't mean it does. I've seen it a ton of times, something is getting warrantied and the owner wants to pay the difference for an upgrade and they can't- it's not just Subaru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SpecB_DE Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Business model makes perfect sense. Manufacturer sets the rules and procedures, dealers abide by those rules and procedures. Whats so difficult about that? Buy the OP some new rotors and put them on for him so everyone can be happy. What the dealer does and is supposed to do, is a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destruya Posted August 18, 2018 Author Share Posted August 18, 2018 It might be that they resurfaced them because it was deposits on them and they were otherwise fine and not warped. According to the service tech who initially told me I needed the repair - there was a 1mm physical warping on the rotors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urdrwho Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 MFG sets rules but they are also supposed to take capital if someone wants to give it to them. From the ex-service manager I used to have coffee with (he died) warranty work is usually not a good money maker for dealers. The extra work of working on the rotor costs the dealer even more money. I get the arrangement but nobody makes out on the deal: Even if they want to do it the customer can't pay for an updated part Dealer can't get any money for updating part, money customer is willing to give Mfg is not working in the customers best interest or dealers best interest. The only thing I can see in the arrangement is that it keeps dealers from trying to up-sell parts that could / should be a regular warranty part. I understand making a deal with the devil. In 40 years of being in business I've signed more adhesion contracts than I care to even think about and I am never the big dog in the arrangement. Business model makes perfect sense. Manufacturer sets the rules and procedures, dealers abide by those rules and procedures. Whats so difficult about that? Buy the OP some new rotors and put them on for him so everyone can be happy. What the dealer does and is supposed to do, is a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urdrwho Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Interesting article and I am removing the term warped rotors from my vocabulary. What we really should be discussing is lateral runout and there are several reason for it to happen. One is a big pet peeve of mine and the reason I come home and re-torque my wheels. Oh I know the techs swear by their colored torque attachments on their gun but I can say with 100% certainty (from experience) that they do NOT always torque to spec. Root causes of runout include: • Runout from the hub mounting face; • Runout from the wheel bearing; • Sloppy resurfacing/machining procedures; • A buildup of rust and corrosion between the rotor, hub and wheel; • Uneven torque on the lug nuts; • Wheel loading distortions; and • Variations in manufacturing tolerances. Other vehicle components can exacerbate the problems with runout. For example, if a vehicle’s floating or sliding calipers aren’t sliding as they should, that will prevent the caliper housing from moving, and any runout can cause pulsation. The caliper piston will move in and out as the rotor rotates resulting in fluid movement and pedal pulsation. Fixed-caliper vehicles are sensitive to runout induced pedal pulsations as well. Fixed calipers have pistons on both sides of the rotor due to the stationary caliper housing. Excessive runout will cause piston movement and can result in pedal pulsation. New: Over the past 30 years, factory runout specification have fallen from as high as .015″ to .000″ (or no detectable runout) for some vehicles. These tightening of the tolerances is due to changes in suspension design, friction formulations and caliper designs. When runout moves beyond specification set by the manufacturer, the uneven application against the pad will lead to disc thickness variation. Disc Thickness Variation This is the real culprit behind most of your “warped rotor” claims. A normal braking event requires a brake pad to be applied squarely against the rotor. Each time this happens, a tiny layer of friction is removed from the pad and is deposited on the face of the rotor. A rotor with runout beyond the specs cannot receive that even application of friction, which means it starts to receive an uneven deposit of friction on its surface. Disc thickness variation is just that — the rotor is now thicker in some spots thanks to the extra layers of friction, which all started because of lateral runout. The DTV is the thickest area minus the thinnest area of the rotor." http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/brake-tsb-trends/ I was told by another dealership just yesterday that "all it takes is one sudden stop." I'm not a brake-happy driver, so I'm honestly mystified that this happened as well. I know you sometimes roll low when it comes to MTBF, but the car only has ~22.8k miles on it. As for this happening again, I've got the 7y/70k Gold Plus Warranty. If/when this happens again, I'm going to dig my heels in and demand new rotors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SpecB_DE Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 All dealers do is up-sell. When i had my airbag recall done, they said i needed my t-belt due to mileage. I asked if the tech popped the hood because my Aisin sticker was in plain sight. Then, he went dumb and asked if they did the work because they had no records. Most dealers want x amount of billed hours per service writer so they sell, sell, sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornichoe Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Disc Thickness Variation This is the real culprit behind most of your “warped rotor” claims. A normal braking event requires a brake pad to be applied squarely against the rotor. Each time this happens, a tiny layer of friction is removed from the pad and is deposited on the face of the rotor. A rotor with runout beyond the specs cannot receive that even application of friction, which means it starts to receive an uneven deposit of friction on its surface. Disc thickness variation is just that — the rotor is now thicker in some spots thanks to the extra layers of friction, which all started because of lateral runout. The DTV is the thickest area minus the thinnest area of the rotor." The engineer in me coming out :-p Friction is a force and can only be applied onto a surface. You cannot put friction on a rotor and leave it there. Other that by excessive heat beyond the tolerances of the rotor material which cause warping, most of the other causes of pulsation start as imperfections that get worse over time. 1. Either the rotor or the pad was not milled to be perfectly smooth. 2. A foreign object gets stuck between the pad and rotor for a period of time causing damage to one or both surfaces which them gets worse over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urdrwho Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Ha! I bet they meant something else because --- yep agreed that ya can't leave a layer of friction. "tiny layer of friction" It is even on another site it is noted about leaving a layer of friction and I'm starting to think it is a colloquialism used by the people who do brake work? "5. Not machining the rotor: New pads almost always require a fresh rotor surface so the pads can deposit a thin layer of friction material to increase braking performance. If old deposits of the previous material are on the rotor, " http://safebraking.com/top-ten-brake-job-mistakes-pads-rotors-calipers/ I'm a bit squirrelly when I get new rotors and I do believe in using a method to bed in those new rotors. The engineer in me coming out :-p Friction is a force and can only be applied onto a surface. You cannot put friction on a rotor and leave it there. Other that by excessive heat beyond the tolerances of the rotor material which cause warping, most of the other causes of pulsation start as imperfections that get worse over time. 1. Either the rotor or the pad was not milled to be perfectly smooth. 2. A foreign object gets stuck between the pad and rotor for a period of time causing damage to one or both surfaces which them gets worse over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLINH Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 When you go to the stealership remember to bend over and hang on to your ankles!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ammcinnis Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 ... "tiny layer of friction" ... [vs.] "... a thin layer of friction material ..." It's simply degenerate usage ... like a farmer or landscaper saying, "I'm going to apply some fertilize." "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there." ~ The Cheshire Cat (Alice in Wonderland) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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