My turn to do valve clearances...Looking for advice

[cSlenker802]

So for anyone who frequently is around this part of the forums, you may know me from past threads haha. Ive had various issues I've posted about relating to AVAC issues caused by a past mechanics failure to correctly install cam seals . When fixing his error I found many others and long story short had to replace my passenger side intake cam shaft. I can link the thread if anyones interested but it was a mess. Anyway before assembling everything again, I checked my valve clearances and they all checked out with the exception of the cylinder 3 intake which was indeed in spec but just barely. It was on the loose range of spec and I was anxious to get my car running again so in classic teenage fashion, I said phuck it and sent it like Larry the Enticer.

 

So now a couple months down the road I got a CEL for timing over advance (intake) on that bank (p0021)... go figure. The car drives great and runs nearly flawless when driving but at idle I can feel a slight shudder and when starting the car it struggles, taking a few cranks sometimes. Not getting enough air in cyl 3? I can only assume since the clearance is too great, not keeping the valve open for long enough.

 

Luckily for me I knew my issue immediately and other than being pissed with myself for the headache of taking it apart to replace the buckets, its not the end of the world.

 

Sooo what I need help with. Before graduation from tech school I took the opportunity to check the lash again in class and got accurate measurements to verify that I am now out of spec on cyl 3. After getting it all back together to drive home that day I decided to look into the FSM again and realized I messed up and also needed to measure my buckets in order to calculate the required new ones. This again is annoying and my own fault but i'm on summer break now and have plenty of time to crack into this. I set up a spreadsheet to organize my measurements but I still have questions on the calculations in the FSM. Ill include screenshots also but from my understanding I take my lash measurement + my lifter thickness measurement and subtract 0.20mm to get my desired bucket thickness to order?

 

Just wanted to verify I was going about this all correctly before taking anything apart and loosing my daily again so any helps greatly appreciated!

[Max Capacity]

PM Barmanbean, or corvertrussian. I believe they are good with this stuff.

[StkmltS]

My first thought is "great, another jerk promoting the metric system"

Just kidding, but seriously.

 

You'll make it a little easier on yourself if you can decide on an exact clearance measurement to use for each valve instead of a range. What does cyl 3, intake valve 1 actually measure? 0.229mm, 0.254mm, or somewhere in between?

 

I'll explain my take on the FSM's [s=(V+T)-0.20] formula out loud and hope my blabbering makes sense.

The total distance between the camshaft and each valve is bucket thickness + clearance.

You have too much clearance, so you need a thicker bucket.

Decide on a desired clearance (maybe 0.22mm?), then do a little math to figure out the difference between current clearance and desired clearance.

Your new bucket needs to be that much thicker than your current bucket.

The 0.20mm in the FSM formula is what Subaru is saying should be your target clearance. It's not unheard of to see clearances shrink over time, so some people choose to target clearances that are on the higher side of acceptable.

 

TL;DR

You're doing it correctly, carry on.

[cSlenker802]

My first thought is "great, another jerk promoting the metric system"

Just kidding, but seriously.

 

You'll make it a little easier on yourself if you can decide on an exact clearance measurement to use for each valve instead of a range. What does cyl 3, intake valve 1 actually measure? 0.229mm, 0.254mm, or somewhere in between?

 

I'll explain my take on the FSM's [s=(V+T)-0.20] formula out loud and hope my blabbering makes sense.

The total distance between the camshaft and each valve is bucket thickness + clearance.

You have too much clearance, so you need a thicker bucket.

Decide on a desired clearance (maybe 0.22mm?), then do a little math to figure out the difference between current clearance and desired clearance.

Your new bucket needs to be that much thicker than your current bucket.

The 0.20mm in the FSM formula is what Subaru is saying should be your target clearance. It's not unheard of to see clearances shrink over time, so some people choose to target clearances that are on the higher side of acceptable.

 

TL;DR

You're doing it correctly, carry on.

 

but the metric system makes sooooo much more sense!

 

and sorry let me clarify the measurements I have. They are by no means exact, just to the best of my ability with the feeler gauges I had haha. The range you gave for example; 0.229mm, 0.254mm, was able to fit a 0.229mm (yes it was an imperial set of feelers lol) rather easily and then would not fit a 0.254mm. Thus I concluded that the actual valve lash clearance was in that range of 0.229-0.254 but on the higher end out of spec, since its obviously causing problems. I know I really should get more exact measurements of the lash, just don't know how to go about it... are there a set of feeler gauges which would allow me to get closer than the range I already have?

 

Also when I was referring to valves 1 and 2 in my OP, I now realize how unclear it is. "Valve 1" was what I called the valve closest to the front of the car in each cylinder. I suppose it would make more sense to call them 1,2,3,4 starting from the front of the camshaft connected to the avac gears and moving back. Instead I called it 1,2 for cyl 1, than 1,2 for cyl 3... not sure why but it made sense at the time haha.

 

Your explanation of Subaru's equation to calculate the bucket thickness is spot on thanks. Makes sense now. So ill defiantly need to measure my current bucket thickness with a micrometer before ordering anything, and should really get a better lash measurement too. Then with that itll be cake to figure out what I need. One thing Im curious on is you mentioned setting the clearance on the higher side which is logical as i've been told before that they will shrink. To do this just use 0.22mm as the value rather than 0.20mm? That seems to make sense to me but I don't trust my logic.

[StkmltS]

but the metric system makes sooooo much more sense!

 

It makes way more sense and I'm all for it, but when I "see" a measurement in my head it's always in "standard". Someday maybe my brainwashed habits will change.

 

The range you gave for example; 0.229mm, 0.254mm, was able to fit a 0.229mm (yes it was an imperial set of feelers lol) rather easily and then would not fit a 0.254mm. Thus I concluded that the actual valve lash clearance was in that range of 0.229-0.254 but on the higher end out of spec, since its obviously causing problems.

 

Converting your numbers so my head can grasp the situation...

0.229mm = 0.009" (close enough)

0.254mm = 0.010" (exactly)

 

For that particular valve you should say that your clearance is 0.229+mm (0.009+") or 0.254-mm (0.010-"). It would be incorrect to use a number more precise (like 0.2415mm or 0.0095") than what's on your gauges. However, reality is more important than theory, so I would use 0.2415mm (0.0095") in the formula to calculate which bucket to order.

 

Staying in reality: the difference between the "will fit" and "wont fit" shims is literally a fraction of a hair, and in this situation it wont make a difference once your car is on the road.

 

Also when I was referring to valves 1 and 2 in my OP, I now realize...

 

Just pick a naming convention and go with it. Use what I did, use what xtbonbon did, make up your own... use whatever makes the most sense to you.

 

One thing Im curious on is you mentioned setting the clearance on the higher side which is logical as i've been told before that they will shrink. To do this just use 0.22mm as the value rather than 0.20mm?

You got it.

When it comes time to order buckets (or if you DIY grind them thinner like some of us have done) remember that a thicker bucket actually means less clearance. So going up means less, and going down means more. It can get confusing.

[Max Capacity]

After following this, I hope your writing your measurements down on paper so you can see what your thinking and keep track of things going on in your head.

[cSlenker802]

 

For that particular valve you should say that your clearance is 0.229+mm (0.009+") or 0.254-mm (0.010-"). It would be incorrect to use a number more precise (like 0.2415mm or 0.0095") than what's on your gauges. However, reality is more important than theory, so I would use 0.2415mm (0.0095") in the formula to calculate which bucket to order.

 

Staying in reality: the difference between the "will fit" and "wont fit" shims is literally a fraction of a hair, and in this situation it wont make a difference once your car is on the road.

 

You got it.

When it comes time to order buckets (or if you DIY grind them thinner like some of us have done) remember that a thicker bucket actually means less clearance. So going up means less, and going down means more. It can get confusing.

 

Gotcha! Thanks that clarified everything I was still a bit confused about. Taking the mean of the measurements I got seems logical as you said, so now its just a matter of measuring the thickness of my current buckets when I get it taken apart. Then a stop at my local subaru dealership (if they got them?) or just order them online. I have checked out other threads where people have ground the buckets down but I believe in my case this isn't an option since I need a tighter clearance hence a thicker bucket.

 

Thanks again for your help i'll keep ya updated with my progress as I start for anyone who's interested.

[cSlenker802]

After following this, I hope your writing your measurements down on paper so you can see what your thinking and keep track of things going on in your head.

 

Oh yeh everything is written down on oil covered papers in my basement too haha. Got some pretty pathetic sketches also to organize myself and not mix anything up haha. But I made a spreadsheet too so I don't loose anything in my mess of parts and such. Thanks for the advice though!

[Max Capacity]

Oh yeh everything is written down on oil covered papers in my basement too haha. Got some pretty pathetic sketches also to organize myself and not mix anything up haha. But I made a spreadsheet too so I don't loose anything in my mess of parts and such. Thanks for the advice though!

 

Yea, I assumed you did, you haven't gotten this far without having a clue.

[cSlenker802]

So I've been awol on vacation for the 4th but figured I'd give an update now that I'm home. Before going away I got the buckets measured and ordered the new correct sized ones. As suggested I did use 0.22mm rather than 0.20mm to account for the clearances tightening up. Now all I gotta do is retrieve my buckets from the post office and throw everything back together! I'll update my thread again when I get it assembled for anyone who cares!

[cSlenker802]

Oh and this is completely off the topic of my valve clearances but I just recently became a distributor for Schaeffer Oil! Although I know oil choice is a very controversial topic around these Subaru forums, I can imagine those of you who helped me out see the value in a true high quality oil! I may post a separate thread for a group buy type deal but for anyone interested in getting a good price on some GREAT quality petroleum products get in touch with me! You can try to PM me but honestly responding on here may get seen by me quicker! If I'm breaking any forum rules by doing this please let me know but I figured this group of well educated gear heads may be interested!

[Max Capacity]

Yes, some of us still check in on this thread after you post...

 

Great to see your trying to get a small business started. Good Luck, how it works well for you.

 

A lot of us use Blackstone Labs for oil sample results, I'm that will be something customers will be interested in.

[boxkita]

A bit late to this thread.

If you are going to work on Subaru valves, get a nice set of metric feeler gauges. Trying to do the math of conversion with error calculations will make your head explode. Sgt.Gator has a set of metric feelers that have a positive stop so you can't force it if it's not a fit. I think he got them off amazon.

 

when laying them out, I covered the work bench in heavy paper towels. Then put the all the parts in matching order, numbered the paper and the head's valve holes, and finally transferred the number'ed parts to excel sheet.

 

Because the buckets are in 5/1000ths of a mm and can wear, you could measure the bucket thickness too.

 

For final stupidity in all this, the manual that all machine shops use has the wrong value for the exhaust valve lash. It says 25 instead of 35. After 3 machine shop's worth of arguing about it, I realized when you have a monopoly on something, the customer is always wrong. :-(

 

Best of luck with your car and business. looks like you're off to a good start.

[cSlenker802]

Yes, some of us still check in on this thread after you post...

 

Great to see your trying to get a small business started. Good Luck, how it works well for you.

 

A lot of us use Blackstone Labs for oil sample results, I'm that will be something customers will be interested in.

 

Haha that means a lot I can't thank you guys enough for all the help over the past couple years!

 

And thanks! I've always been doing research on my own about various oils, weights, additives etc and when my friend asked me if I'd be into being a distributor I couldn't say no! I was thinking of trying out Redline anyway and since I can get schaeffers far cheaper it was an easy choice lol. I'll let you known what I thinking of the oil and testing services once I try them out!

[cSlenker802]

A bit late to this thread.

If you are going to work on Subaru valves, get a nice set of metric feeler gauges. Trying to do the math of conversion with error calculations will make your head explode. Sgt.Gator has a set of metric feelers that have a positive stop so you can't force it if it's not a fit. I think he got them off amazon.

 

when laying them out, I covered the work bench in heavy paper towels. Then put the all the parts in matching order, numbered the paper and the head's valve holes, and finally transferred the number'ed parts to excel sheet.

 

Because the buckets are in 5/1000ths of a mm and can wear, you could measure the bucket thickness too.

 

For final stupidity in all this, the manual that all machine shops use has the wrong value for the exhaust valve lash. It says 25 instead of 35. After 3 machine shop's worth of arguing about it, I realized when you have a monopoly on something, the customer is always wrong. :-(

 

Best of luck with your car and business. looks like you're off to a good start.

 

Thanks you I sure hope all goes well with the car...it's only been nightmares so far haha! I now have it back together and everything is running well... knock on wood! I was luckily able to keep everything straight though this all this but now have all sorts of extra buckets around. I did think to label them just in case I ever need them again.

 

On a related note my buddy's legacy I'm rebuilding is coming along quickly! Heads went to the machine shop today and I'll pick them up sometime next week after the New England Rally races in Maine on te 20th! On an off note will anyone's else be there?...I haven't decided if we're gonna have the machine shop set the lash or weather I feel up to doing it again but reguardless I'll make sure to ask about that exhaust valve clearance if I'm too lazy to do them!

 

Thanks again! Im sure I'll update this thread again before I go off to college and may start a seprate one for oil related business!

[Max Capacity]

I'm headed to Sunday River in about 20 minutes to be a corner worker for that.

 

My buddy is a Ham radio guy, we'll be in his black Jeep with CT plates. he's a bigger guy 65y/o I'm 62 y/o

 

If you see us say hi.

 

I'll have the lap to, what year legacy is the car ?

 

I wear a fadded black Summit racing hat most of the time, but after working, we'll have our Subaru Rally team hat's on.

[cSlenker802]

I'm headed to Sunday River in about 20 minutes to be a corner worker for that.

 

My buddy is a Ham radio guy, we'll be in his black Jeep with CT plates. he's a bigger guy 65y/o I'm 62 y/o

 

If you see us say hi.

 

I'll have the lap to, what year legacy is the car ?

 

I wear a fadded black Summit racing hat most of the time, but after working, we'll have our Subaru Rally team hat's on.

 

Sorry just saw this but I'm up here! At the first day of stages now I'm wearing a camo tee shirt and my legacys the only regal blue one I've seen up here! It's an 05 and has no front bumper lol you can't miss it! Parked front row by the tents and buses I'll try and find ya!

[Max Capacity]

Just got back from the diner. We didn't leave our stop which was Delta on stages 3 and 4, on South Arm. We didn't leave there until just after 7:30PM. Have to meet the stage Captain at 6:30AM then head out for the day, we also work the last stage tomorrow evening.

 

We'll be at the diner when we get back what ever time that is.

 

Hope to see you. We also have to see Nick and he grand son Devon at the Subaru swag trailer. We owe him some stuff...

[xt2005bonbon]

My first thought is "great, another jerk promoting the metric system"

Just kidding, but seriously.

 

mmmh. I wonder who you are referring to huh?

 

 

Funny, cause OP thread title is almost the same as the one I made a while ago

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/my-turn-adjust-valve-clearances-242071.html

[cSlenker802]

Just got back from the diner. We didn't leave our stop which was Delta on stages 3 and 4, on South Arm. We didn't leave there until just after 7:30PM. Have to meet the stage Captain at 6:30AM then head out for the day, we also work the last stage tomorrow evening.

 

We'll be at the diner when we get back what ever time that is.

 

Hope to see you. We also have to see Nick and he grand son Devon at the Subaru swag trailer. We owe him some stuff...

 

I'll keep my eyes out for you today we're on the bus to Stages 8 and 9 now! We walked around the pits last night and had a blast checking everything out! Hope I see ya around! We were at the mid stage "jump" yesterday and got to see all sortsa action... also met a couple of the event staff and photographers on the side of the corse so that was pretty cool!

[Max Capacity]

We were start at stages 5 and 10 today then radio at location C on the final stage.

 

Start is entertaining there's lots going on and some of the drivers are fun when I check there belts and Han's. A couple are pretty chatty...

[cSlenker802]

We were start at stages 5 and 10 today then radio at location C on the final stage.

 

Start is entertaining there's lots going on and some of the drivers are fun when I check there belts and Han's. A couple are pretty chatty...

 

That sounds awesome! I wish I was able to meet up with you but theres always next year... I fully plan on making at least this event from now on! "Addicted" would be an understatement lol and I fully plan to volunteer next year and get involved in every way I can! I'm now dead set on building my own car eventually to race, but also i'm going to RIT this fall for school and they fund a TON of various race teams for ASE competition... Although these events aren't ASE, there is a ton of engineering which goes into the cars so I'm curious on weather they would help fund a team

[Max Capacity]

RIT, that's in NY state right ?

 

My Ham Radio buddy helps out with the ASE team from Central CT. Its more of a road race open wheel car that each team builds from nothing. Then go to a national competition to see how they did.

[cSlenker802]

RIT, that's in NY state right ?

 

My Ham Radio buddy helps out with the ASE team from Central CT. Its more of a road race open wheel car that each team builds from nothing. Then go to a national competition to see how they did.

 

Yep Rochester NY! And yeh the ASE teams RIT has are a shifter kart team, snowmobile team, and then offroad buggy one...if only they could blend the off road and shifter karts haha

[Max Capacity]

I think your going to have a great time at school. You already have a good background.

 

Always be ready to listen and learn from the mistakes of other's. There is so much knowledge out there just take it all in.

 

You live in a good area for rally and hill climbs.

 

If you can check out Tim O'Niels rally school just north of Littleton NH. I think he has a Fall thing coming up. We went up to work that weekend once a couple years back. They always need volunteers.