Official Firearm Thread V3

[TSiWRX]

^ No, I get what you said, it's just that even as a matter of end-user opinion, I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around it.

 

I just guess maybe if you worded it differently, I would be better able to swallow it, I'm not sure? Or maybe more specific/details (i.e. that despite the single-stage/two-stage difference, maybe if you focused in-detail on creep/break? I don't know)?

 

 

I don't consider myself a trigger snob, either. I can feel the difference between the SSA-E and the SSA, but I'm stone blind between the SSA and the G2S, and I have friends who can take that blind taste test and call Pepsi versus Coke each and every time. Similarly, while I know that I have a distinct preference between the Larue MBT and the Geissele SSA/SSA-E, but honestly I don't know that if you put me on a clock and with enough pressure/stress that I can no longer discern the difference in trigger-face feel with the MBT and the two Geissle's, that my objective performance would necessarily reflect my subjective biases between the three.

Edited April 16, 2018 by TSi+WRX

[Penguin]

Stock trigger on the LE6920?

 

If so, it's red hot garbage that a cat who's been fed nothing but blue cheese for a month just shit on.

 

BDII,

 

You have a fine basic carbine in your 6920. I implore you to upgrade the trigger to something that doesn't suck shit through a straw.

 

Is a quality trigger pricey? Yes, but it will help make the your stick roughly 300% more enjoyable to shoot, particularly if you're doing deliberate shooting for accuracy at distance. For me the transition to a good 2 stage trigger from the GI hot garbage trigger was a revelation, totally changing how I look at the AR platform.

 

As it is you probably have an excellent barrel on that rifle, because Colt makes really really good barrels. Everything else is assembled correctly too. So the mechanical accuracy potential is there, but you have this horrible GI trigger fighting you every step of the way in exploiting the rifle for what it can actually do.

 

A 6920 is a great base to upgrade from as time and budget allows.

 

In priority order:

 

1.) Ditch the GI trigger for a high quality aftermarket unit. I'm an admitted Geissele fan. As you're prior military Brownells gives a discount on most stuff, and a Geissele SSA, SSA-E, or the SDC, or SDE (all of them are a 2 stage) can be had for about $208.00, and they do run sales on them. I'm a big fan of the SDC since I like the flat trigger shoe, and the 4.5lb total pull weight is quite appropriate for a general purpose carbine.

 

2.) A good optic. Take your pick of what you're looking for, and what you want to gun to do.

 

3.) Free float rail. This will improve mechanical accuracy quite a bit, and there a are a ton of good options of varying price.

 

4.) Change furniture if desired. Not real expensive, and easy to do.

[THE RZA]

you have to look at it from perspective, not objective sir. It's how we write our material on that site if you looked around at the other content besides my own. Yes, I love the SSA-E trigger, but I'm not going to tell someone who doesn't want to spend $250 on a trigger that they should buy a $250 trigger. Which is also what annoys me about a lot of gun media outlets and how their reviews are always about how said gun is the greatest gun in the world and you need to buy one.

 

I'm looking at this from the perspective that he doesn't want to spend the money, so I gave him 3 options. Now the reason I say the ALG and G2S didn't feel very different, is because the G2S is an entry level 2 stage trigger. If I said the ALG felt similar to the SSA-E, you know I'm full of shit

[TSiWRX]

^ I get it - but that perspective needs to be presented in an accurate way.

 

Is it OK to say that a single-stage trigger is "the same" as a two-stage? I really don't think so, because objectively, they are fundamentally different. It's no a matter of opinion, but fact.

 

Is a passenger car the same thing as a truck? They are both four-wheeled road-legal conveyances and they may well feel the same to the typical daily city-to-suburban commuter, but there's some very fundamental differences, right? Is a light-duty truck the same as a heavy-duty truck? Now we are getting into some refinements, but still, there's a pretty big difference.

 

However, is it OK to suggest that a good single-stage trigger will serve a shooter in the same manner that a good two-stage trigger will as an upgraded trigger?

 

I think that's perfectly acceptable - to let the buyer/shopper know that they've got two different choices - but that we also must help them understand what is different with those choices, particularly where there are such clear and fundamental differences.

 

In helping a shooter select a trigger, I think it is less important to guide them to a particular and specific choice, versus helping them understand what it is exactly that they are looking for - and that difference starts with the very first branch in the decision tree: do they want a single-stage trigger, or a two-stage?

 

From there, we then dissect the *_purpose_* of the planned purchase. There are triggers that are more suited for competition (here, the precise type of competition matters, too - a "3-gun" trigger won't likely do well for benchrest/bullseye), and there are those that are more suited for duty/hunting, and there are those which may be acceptable only in a recreational sense.

 

Can we say that an ALG ACT is a great single-stage trigger? We sure can, particularly if the end-purpose for the gun is one of defense/duty-use.

 

Can we say that the Geissele G2S is a great two-stage trigger? Again, same as above.

 

But to equate the ACT with the G2S?

 

That passenger car ain't the same as that truck.

[THE RZA]

again you're making a non-issue over a completely different perspective. It doesn't need to be presented in an accurate way, it's just a conversation you weren't a part of

[TSiWRX]

You have a fine basic carbine in your 6920.

 

As it is you probably have an excellent barrel on that rifle, because Colt makes really really good barrels. Everything else is assembled correctly too. So the mechanical accuracy potential is there, but you have this horrible GI trigger fighting you every step of the way in exploiting the rifle for what it can actually do.

 

I know there's been some poo-poo of the more recently produced Colts (including the 6920), but I think that this can be overcome by individual inspection prior to purchase - or, if too late, a detailed inspection (and remediation, if-necessary) now, by its current owner.

 

A 6920 is a great base to upgrade from as time and budget allows.

 

Completely agreed.

 

My buddy went from out-of-the-box (he purchased his about two years ago, and he definitely was fortunate enough to have gotten a good one - it was "vetted" in a recent armorer's class we took, where it was stripped down to-components and inspected) straight to a few beginner/novice-level classes, and now it's been through several higher-level classes as well.

 

It's definitely grown with him and has been adapted (by him) to his needs.

 

 

 

That's my buddy and his stick.

 

It's been through iterations of furniture (Magpul MOE - his came with the standard 2-piece handguard, stock, and A2 grip - now the MI [he went for a lot more rail so that he can add cool-guy stuff later, and he's got A LOT of rail because he's got these ridiculously short arms and fingers ] and BCM), optic (he went from a PRO, which is now on my backup class gun, to the T1), and even forward control elements (the RailScales and Arisaka handguard are all more recent updates, replacing Magpul components, as he has come into his own shooting style).

 

It's definitely a gun that a shooter can grow with, and never having to worry about growing out of.

 

In priority order:

 

<snip>

 

Completely agreed on order as well - the furniture is easy, so it's tempting to do outright, but more often than not this means that it's just going to get changed again downstream, once the shooter figures out what he/she *_really_* wants.

[TSiWRX]

again you're making a non-issue over a completely different perspective. It doesn't need to be presented in an accurate way, it's just a conversation you weren't a part of

 

 

It's a non-issue only if someone didn't know the difference between a single-stage and a two-stage trigger!

 

And don't forget to let the "gunsmith" change out the bearings in your stock GI trigger!

 

Why does "a recommendation to a friend" not need to be accurate in its presentation? I'd say that it's even more important that I be accurate about what I'm recommending when that recommendation is for someone who is ostensibly my friend.

 

I've known BDII via this Forum since late 2005. My first logged interaction with him where I wrote his name directly was in 2007. Granted I may not have shaken the man's hand - and that we might have had a disagreement or two in our time (which friendship doesn't?) - but we've even chatted a few times in PMs over the years, so yes, I consider him a friend, too.

 

And as a friend, I wouldn't want him to order a single-stage trigger if he expected a two-stage, or vice-versa.

 

....you know what I said. I said I didn't notice much a difference between a ACT trigger and a G2S, which again is an end user based opinion, not gospel. If you have a problem with my opinion then so be it, because I said the ALG didn't feel much different from the G2S. I know there is a huge difference between a single stage and 2 stage trigger and it's not an apples to apples comparison.

 

Honestly, did you seriously pull a Geissele G2S - a two-stage trigger - and not notice the difference between it and a single-stage like the ACT ALG? Not that there's two distinct stages in the former? Not that the former only requires half the force to reach the break at its second stage, versus the latter?

 

You started off there by saying that you didn't feel much of a difference, but you ended up by saying that there's a huge difference between a single-stage and a two-stage.

 

Which is it, really?

Edited April 16, 2018 by TSi+WRX

[THE RZA]

whoa slow your roll there smokey. He has said on many occasions he doesn't shoot his AR much, and that the trigger sucks. It's not because the trigger sucks that he doesn't want to shoot it more often, it's just not his thing. With that being said and knowing BD as well as I do, I'm aware that he doesn't want to spend $250 on a trigger. So again, I gave him options that are cheaper.

 

You are also aware to become a licensed Gunsmith it isn't that easy right? I worked under a gunsmith at a shooting range/gun store for 2 years after I got out of the Marines, becoming a licensed GS weeds out the hack jobs.

 

and yes, I pulled a G2S trigger and a ACT trigger and did not notice a huge difference, because the G2S is the entry level 2 stage trigger Geissele offers. When I changed out my stock trigger on my M6IC for the G2S, the difference wasn't astounding. When I changed out the G2S for the SSA-E, that was a very noticable difference. When I then took the G2S and put it in my .308 and removed that stock trigger, THAT was a noticeable difference since Windham's GI trigger wasn't nearly as refined as LWRC's was. It's also suitable for my needs of a .308 rifle, the SSA-E wouldn't be in that application, but it is in my M6IC.

 

and yes, I know the physical difference and operations of a single stage trigger vs. a 2 stage trigger. However the ACT is a very good single stage trigger and the G2S is a lower level 2 stage trigger that really doesn't have a day and night difference in their performance.

 

I don’t want to be cocky here, but if you can shoot similar results at 100 yards standing with your red dot, let me know. Because I just might know a thing or 2 about how to get the bullet from point A to point B effectively [emoji51]

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by THE RZA

[TSiWRX]

Arrrgh! Why can't I quote your posts?!

 

whoa slow your roll there smokey. He has said on many occasions he doesn't shoot his AR much, and that the trigger sucks. It's not because the trigger sucks that he doesn't want to shoot it more often, it's just not his thing. With that being said and knowing BD as well as I do, I'm aware that he doesn't want to spend $250 on a trigger. So again, I gave him options that are cheaper.

 

No, I understand that -

 

My beef is just that you lumped a single-stage trigger with a two-stage trigger and thought nothing of it.

 

There's a basic and fundamental difference.

 

You are also aware to become a licensed Gunsmith it isn't that easy right? I worked under a gunsmith at a shooting range/gun store for 2 years after I got out of the Marines, becoming a licensed GS weeds out the hack jobs.

 

Yes, I do understand it's not that easy.

 

But I also understand that just becoming licensed doesn't mean that a person can't do sub-par work. There's plenty of gun-Forums with threads dedicated to the awful things that a certified "gunsmith" manages to mangle.

 

Is that every gunsmith?

 

No, certainly not - even just local to me, there's guys like Dave Laubert ( http://www.recoilweb.com/dave-laubert-defensive-creations-80917.html ) out there, and many who while they may not have attained that level of fame, still perform excellent work.

 

But just because a guy hangs a shingle and shows off his piece of paper doesn't necessarily mean that I want him swapping out my springs with a CTD Rainbow-Brite kit or replacing the bearings inside my USGI/mil-spec trigger.

 

and yes, I pulled a G2S trigger and a ACT trigger and did not notice a huge difference, because the G2S is the entry level 2 stage trigger Geissele offers. When I changed out my stock trigger on my M6IC for the G2S, the difference wasn't astounding. When I changed out the G2S for the SSA-E, that was a very noticable difference. When I then took the G2S and put it in my .308 and removed that stock trigger, THAT was a noticeable difference since Windham's GI trigger wasn't nearly as refined as LWRC's was. It's also suitable for my needs of a .308 rifle, the SSA-E wouldn't be in that application, but it is in my M6IC.

 

and yes, I know the physical difference and operations of a single stage trigger vs. a 2 stage trigger. However the ACT is a very good single stage trigger and the G2S is a lower level 2 stage trigger that really doesn't have a day and night difference in their performance.

 

OK, this, I can agree with.

 

I don’t want to be cocky here, but if you can shoot similar results at 100 yards standing with your red dot, let me know. Because I just might know a thing or 2 about how to get the bullet from point A to point B effectively [emoji51]

 

^ Ah, and here's the problem

 

That they *_perform_* the same in your hands doesn't necessarily mean that they will in another shooter's hands.

 

In your previous posts, you suggested that the G2S and ACT are essentially the same because of your subjective perception of them.

 

Here, you're suggesting that they are again equivalent because you see the same performance out of them.

 

But there is an essential and fundamental difference in that one is a two-stage, and the other is a single-stage. If that end-user prefers a single-stage, the recommendation of the G2S fails, right then and there - if that end-user prefers a two-stage, the same failure then comes of the ACT recommendation, right?

 

I might not notice a difference between driving that passenger vehicle on the street or that truck.

[THE RZA]

There is no failure of recommendation. I know what would be adequate equipment for what he wants to do with his AR. A $50 tweak, a $65 single stage trigger or a $165 entry level two stage trigger is more than adequate.

 

If he was to be shooting the rifle 2-3 times a week and going through 2k rounds in that process, then no, I wouldn’t recommend a cheap option.

[TSiWRX]

^ I feel like I'm not getting through. It's probably my ESL striking, again.

 

No, it's not about price.

 

And no, it's not about how much he - or anyone else - intends to use the gun. The ACT as well as its direct competitors like the BCM PNT, SOLGW LFT, and Sonics EMT (now the only one of this set that I still haven't had trigger time on) suffer no woes as hard-users, and as a matter of fact are highly thought of both the training-junkies/range-rat as well as duty worlds, garnering praise from virtually every SME I've taken a lesson from as well as from the likes of the P&S Mods.

 

The fundamental difference here is the difference between a single stage versus a two-stage (look at what we talked about on pages 72-73 of this thread very thread, when you were just buying your first aftermarket trigger: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/official-firearm-thread-v3-256237p72.html).

 

The two just aren't equal.

 

Let me try putting it this way:

 

If BDII wanted a single-stage trigger, would you recommend the G2S to him?

 

If he wanted a two-stage trigger, would you recommend the ACT to him?

 

Yes, both are excellent drop-ins and he'll be very happy with either.

 

But there's a fundamental difference. One is single-stage spec'ed at no less than 5.5 lbs., and the other is a two-stage that's 2.5/2.0, total ~4.5 as-spec'ed. To suggest to anyone that it "feels" the same is just disingenuous.

 

Truthfully, or all anyone knows, in BDII's hands, they may well perform the same - just like with you. But there's no way to guaranty that, is there? Indeed, you can rightfully say that with how you shoot, within the parameters of your testing setup, you see the same results - but what if the other person has a strong preference for a single-stage or two-stage trigger (to-wit, isn't one of the main reasons why we pursue an aftermarket trigger an attempt to force the BSA template to be favorable for us?)?

 

I'm not suggesting that your subjective assessments are invalid: they are, after all, your opinion (I may not agree, but hey, they're still your opinion ). Nor am I suggesting that your observations - your noted objective performance - doesn't conform to reality. You printed the shots downrange, and that's proof enough (and remember, we were talking about red-dot sight use, too, back on pages 66 to 69 - http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/official-firearm-thread-v3-256237p66.html ...remember, that's the little one hot-dogging it on the head of the Tac-Strike quarters, so I've gotta be able to keep up - with projected dots [reflex or laser] I can compensate without issue for my astigmatism until about the 165 yard line, where it becomes impossible for me to engage a point target if I were to hold that sight picture for more than about 20 seconds or so, when my eyes get "tired," at which time I either have to pull off for about 30 seconds to a minute, or else further compensate [i.e. cheat and cowitness thorugh a rear peep]; I'll shoot an etched reticle all day at 1x).

 

Rather, I'm suggesting that even though these claims can rightfully be made, that fundamental difference between the two items, that one is a single-stage, and the other a two-stage, needs to be made known, if not outright highlighted.

Edited April 17, 2018 by TSi+WRX

[Penguin]

If a single stage trigger and a two stage trigger feel the same to you, then I submit you are not using the two stage trigger correctly for deliberate shooting. You are supposed to take up the first stage of smooth light travel until you hit the 2nd stage and then press through the 2nd stage as it will break with very little additional movement.

 

If you're just doing rapid fire close range drills the difference is negligible between a 2 stage and a single stage. It's when you need to make a low probability shot or do other precision work that the 2 stage really makes a difference.

[THE RZA]

The fundamental issue here is I wasn’t talking you who gives a shit? you’re building a working yourself up over a non issue and explaining things to me that don’t serve a purpose because I’m making cost friendly options.

 

Product choice is subjective to what the end user prefers for their application.

[TSiWRX]

^ Er.....you're posting on an open Forum. Anyone can - and should - jump in.

 

I'm not working myself up, at all. I'm just trying to correct some very egregious technical errors. You're the one that's being reactive.

 

And no, it may not serve a purpose to you that you're mixing up terminology, or that, in past posts, when others corrected you on legal issues, you also backpedaled and then lashed-out: (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/official-firearm-thread-v3-256237p64.html to http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/official-firearm-thread-v3-256237p65.html).

 

As someone who is a gun-writer, you should be aiming to get things correct - to be precise in your language.

 

If you cannot even do that for your "recommendations for a friend," how can we trust you as in industry writer?

 

And if someone gives a friend of mine a recommendation which I do not think is correct - or simply lacks accuracy - isn't it upon me as a friend to correct/clarify such statements?

 

 

 

------

 

 

If a single stage trigger and a two stage trigger feel the same to you, then I submit you are not using the two stage trigger correctly for deliberate shooting. You are supposed to take up the first stage of smooth light travel until you hit the 2nd stage and then press through the 2nd stage as it will break with very little additional movement.

 

If you're just doing rapid fire close range drills the difference is negligible between a 2 stage and a single stage. It's when you need to make a low probability shot or do other precision work that the 2 stage really makes a difference.

 

^ And that begs a follow-up question:

 

THE RZA, are you just slapping through that two-stage trigger?

 

And if you are not, then how can a two-stage trigger possibly feel the same to you as a single-stage?

Edited April 17, 2018 by TSi+WRX

[THE RZA]

TL;DR any of that.

 

I’m not publishing this nor am I gun salesman, i’m giving a friend no bullshit advice, which regardless I know he’s not going to do because we’ve been saying for 2 years to upgrade the trigger and he hasn’t

 

I’m reacting to your unsolicited technical advice, while it’s great you have an array of knowledge on AR’s and their parts, this isn’t an appropriate situation for such speak, because I wasn’t talking to you. Just as you were upset when I refer to milspec parts as “universal” when all Mil-spec is just industry jargon for universal. Who cares?

[m sprank]

Too much drama. I cant even read it all without losing interest. Its way more fun to shoot the gun than talk about it. or argue about it.

 

Hell, I have seen guys shoot like Milacek with a Hi Point.

[THE RZA]

Agreed^ which was my point to begin with. Keeping It Simple Stupid to get someone to feel inclined to use their guns more. Edited April 17, 2018 by THE RZA

[THE RZA]

I was out of the shooting world for all of 2017, starting a new job, buying a 2nd home and other priorities will do that to you. I also didn’t LOVE my old rifle and didn’t incline me to go out and shoot often. Also from NJ law, I never updated my address on my FID to my primary residence in the first place, so I couldn’t buy anything new until I did so

 

Then I bought my LWRC and it was a rifle I wanted for years, it has definitely inclined me to go out and shoot a lot more. The last 4 months I’ve become more immersed with shooting and the gun world more than ever, even when I actually worked in the industry. Shooting many different rifles & handguns I’ve learned a lot about what I like and what I want out of one.

 

I’ve also networked with a lot of people which is what lead me to meeting the man behind The BrassTacs and giving me the opportunity to write for him. He’s been in the industry for 16+ years writing for different platforms, and through that he’s learned to have his own platform that stands out is to be perspective driven.

 

Technical knowledge is great to have, but it’s something that is great to have for yourself. I won’t publish something that isn’t accurate, but when your objective is to talk about something from a certain perspective rather than a broad audience that you’re trying to sell everything and anything to, you aren’t being unique and setting yourself apart from what’s already there.

 

Take my article for example, it was written with a value perspective, that for $1600 you can get yourself a very good AR10 platform that delivers great results and modifiable without breaking the bank. If I were to say it’s the greatest rifle ever and everyone should buy it, you would know i’m full of shit

Edited April 17, 2018 by THE RZA

[TSiWRX]

Too much drama. I cant even read it all without losing interest. Its way more fun to shoot the gun than talk about it. or argue about it.

 

Hell, I have seen guys shoot like Milacek with a Hi Point.

 

You meant Miculek, right?

 

And m sprank, we've also known each other for years - how many times have I started drama?

 

The problem here is that there was inaccurate advice given, period. Even Penguin came forth to note that there is a basic problem, here.

 

Technical knowledge is great to have, but it’s something that is great to have for yourself. I won’t publish something that isn’t accurate, but when your objective is to talk about something from a certain perspective rather than a broad audience that you’re trying to sell everything and anything to, you aren’t being unique and setting yourself apart from what’s already there.

 

So depending on "perspective," technical accuracy can be dismissed?

 

What is this, fake news? Alternative facts?

 

No, there is technical correctness and technical incorrectness, period. That is factual, and that is what is important.

 

Should we mock the illogical and ignorant anti-gunners for their technically incorrect and outrageous statements when it suits our purposes - our perspective - but then fall to inaccuracies and incorrect information ourselves?

 

None of what I've written is "jargon." It is - and should be - common-knowledge for all shooters.

 

The basic problem here is the differentiation of a single-stage trigger with a two-stage trigger.

 

And this is something that anyone who is shopping for an aftermarket trigger will need to know, before making that purchase, because it affects, intimately, how they will interact with the trigger.

 

As Penguin noted, a two-stage trigger feels nothing like a single-stage trigger.

 

Can the shooter simply smash through the first stage of a two-stage trigger when the BSA template calls for speed with a relaxed accuracy/precision need? Certainly - and the shooter would be smart to do so.

 

But to suggest that a single-stage and two-stage feels similar? That's a statement that either disingenuous or is made out of sheer ignorance.

 

And whether I'm writing an article to be published or I am just helping out a friend, I would want to make absolutely sure that what comes out of my mouth or what I put down on paper/screen is factual and accurate.

[THE RZA]

Seriously, relax dude. There is no need to go on about it. He’s not actually going to upgrade his trigger unless myself or Pengy actually send him one. It’s been an ongoing joke for some time. He’s actually made quite a few upgrades to his AR with free parts a bunch of us on here have sent him, that’s his MO

 

If you have a good trigger sitting around, send it to him and maybe he’ll install it

 

he’s a handgun guy and knows far more about them than I ever will. he helped me decide on my 229 based on my needs, he was spot on and I’m very happy with it.

 

We currently have a partnership with Timney, but I working on a partnership with Geissele which makes me happy because I won’t use anything else but Geissele triggers in my rifles. Their optic mounts are awesome too.

[TSiWRX]

^ Cool beans.

 

I just like for everything to be accurate, that's all.

 

It's a little anal at times, but, heck, I think everyone deserves to have things explained to them properly. It's the benchtop scientist in me, I'm afraid.

 

In all honesty, it's why I like P&S so much. Sure, it seems a bit intense at times, but it's only because they expect their members to really be able to logically back up what they are saying/writing. It's expected that knowledge and know-how are passed along properly, so that things don't become diluted or outright ridiculous/derpy.

 

I wish I had the money to just send him a Geissele. Hopefully you will pick up that partnership, and be able to give him a good discount.

 

Even if-not, like Penguin noted, the mil/LE discount via places like Brownells or MidwayUSA is pretty solid, and if he's able to wait until those products go on-sale (I think the next one will be Memorial Day or Independence Day), he can really get a pretty sweet deal.

 

I wish DPMS still had those $100 Contract-Overrun G2Ss.

[THE RZA]

I haven’t figured out how Brownell’s military discount works because it’s not well explained. Primary Arms offers it and so does Geissele right on their website. MidwayUSA doesn’t offer a discount but they always have really good pricing and constant deals. Edited April 17, 2018 by THE RZA

[ehsnils]

Arrrgh! Why can't I quote your posts?!

 

See this thread:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/occasional-error-editing-posts-268613.html

[BDII]

I read penguins post directed to me and that's it. Holy word fortitude

[THE RZA]