Legacy vs. Audi and BMW

[JAS]

My father is shopping for new car. He currently drives a ~1997 A4 2.8L quattro, which he has enjoyed thoroughly with the exception of some costly maintenance in recent years.

 

He is looking for a car with all-wheel drive, manual transmission, and a 6 cylinder engine. So far, he is considering primarily a new A4 and a 3-series BMW. I suggested that he try out the Legacy GT, despite the fact that it is not available in a 6-cylinder engine.

 

Any thoughts about whether the Legacy should be a serious contender here? I don't think that the initial purchase price will be the primary decision criteria, although reliability / maintenance costs would be a factor based on the Audi experience. Please try to be objective

 

Thanks very much for any comments!

 

- JAS

[team23jordan]

Audi and BMW costs in the neigborhood of high 30s

Legacy costs about high 20s to flat 30s

Legacy is faster but has low torque

compare to their 6 cylinder engines

 

Audi and BMW is for more of older people as well

[TSiWRX]

Reliability and overall maintenance costs (and definitely, performance, especially bang-for-buck) will likely make him take a second look, but if he's used to the overall - and much more so, interior - fit-and-finish of the Audi, it's going to be a very, very hard-sell.

[TSiWRX]

Audi and BMW is for more of older people as well

 

Not necessarily .

 

In my neck of the woods and among my friends (late 20s through early-mid 30s, all professionals, with average household incomes in the $70K to $300K+ range), at least, Audi and BMW seem to be the two most popular vehicle brands.

[rallispec]

depends on your father.

 

I'm assuming he's a european car fanboy (based on his desier for an audi or BMW) - and usually they are the type who sort of look down on the japanese brands. And then you've got to contend with talking him into the turbo4 instead of a 6.

 

If he's open to the idea of owning a subaru, I think he'll find that it's better than his audi in almost every way, and a serious competitor to the BMW 3 series. (minus the fit and finish type things.. whic subaru is still working out)

 

 

 

generally speaking, the Legacy is more of a compitor to the Acura TSX, Mazda6, etc etc... However i'm sure that a few people have been pulled away from bmw's and A4's.

[SWP-LegacyGT]

here's the problems with Audi's (being a former Audi owner).

 

1.) Some people can afford to buy the car. Some people can't afford to buy the car and MAINTAIN the car.

2.) Audi's are overpriced.

3.) If you buy a BMW you have to buy a couple of black turtle necks.

4.) BMW > Audi. but...

5.) Subaru > Audi however

6.) BMW >= Subaru

 

That in mind, I think it's safe to say a LGT is able to beat just about any 330i out there simply because people don't know how to drive those cars. Audi engine's will run for 200k miles. BMW engines will run for maybe 250k miles. Subaru engines are PROVEN to last over 500k miles on the FACTORY built engine.

 

There's a guy I know up in Seattle that has a '93 Legacy wagon with 526,000 miles on the original built engine. Regular oil changes and the thing is still running great.

 

 

The other thing to remember is... Audi/BMW is the for older crowds that aren't quite ready for a buick or maybe a cadi.

 

Beyond that, great cars, big headache to fix and hurt the pocket book.

[nKoan]

Have him test drive it.

 

A turbo-4 can subjectively feel much faster then an N/A 6-cyl, even if it isn't.

[TYNY]

i used to drive a BMW, great car but costly. if you really need to compare a BMW it's gotta be the 330 Xi (~$38,000/ 255Hp) not the 325 Xi (~33,000+/215Hp). Now the Audi 2.0t (~30,000+/200Hp) isn't compaable either but the 3.0V6 hasn't come out yet i think. right now both BMW and Audi give you maintenance free for 3-4 years, if your dad is not the type to change his own oil then it's better to go w/ one of these. otherwise pretty much all of us here at LegacyGt love our cars. nothing like the turbo rush even in stock form. true it doesn't have the same luxurious appointments but it's a great ride and from what i understand, lasts almost forever.

 

i don't agree about the "older crowd" thing necessarily as i was in my late 20's driving the BMW, now i'm 30 w/ the legacy.

 

you dad has to drive all 3 cars to compare, i drove the audi 2.0t before i bought the legacy, don't think i'm missing out on much and never regretted it yet.

[HansGT]

Audi and BMW costs in the neigborhood of high 30s

Legacy costs about high 20s to flat 30s

Legacy is faster but has low torque

compare to their 6 cylinder engines

 

Audi and BMW is for more of older people as well

 

I think your meaning the Legacy has lower end torque?

 

The GT is listed as 250hp/250torque stock, but dyno's of stock vehicles would suggest that the GT really has around 275ft/lbs. And the full torque comes in at 3400RPM.

 

Source: Edmunds.com

 

2005-2006 Legacy GT Limited: 250hp/250/lbs. Weight: 3365lbs.

2006 Audi A4: 255hp/243ft/lbs. Weight: 3649 (fat!)

2006 BMW 330xi: 255hp/220ft/lbs. Weight: 3627 (portly)

 

Lighter equals faster. Subtract .1 sec's in the 1/4 mile for ever 100 pounds you shave off your car.

 

Bottom line. The Subaru is faster and lighter. You can also upgrade with simple plug in ECU modifiers. Using the Cobb Accessport for $645 ups your Legacy GT output to 290hp/305ft./lbs. (0-60 drops to 5.1) Adding an aftermarket downpipe and loading a stage 2 map gets you 315hp/340torque and a 0-60 of 4.8....Smooking the BMW and Audi.

Also, spending as little as $600 on performance springs or better tires can dramatically change the handling. You could have a heavily modified Legacy for the same price of a stock BMW or A4.

[eles1]

Any thoughts about whether the Legacy should be a serious contender here? I don't think that the initial purchase price will be the primary decision criteria, although reliability / maintenance costs would be a factor based on the Audi experience. Please try to be objective

 

Thanks very much for any comments!

 

- JAS

 

If he's an Audi fan, have him check out the new A4 2.0T w/quattro and manual tranny. Should be quicker/torquier than his old 2.8L and still has all the Audi features and benefits. The new A4 3.0 is big $$ and only comes in auto. If I'm not mistaken, scheduled maint for the first 50k miles is included in the price, really not a bad deal...

[mwiener2]

My dad had two audi A6 avants and then a 2.7t Allroad. Now he has an Outback LLBeanie and couldn't be happier

[pdw]

IMO, Audi makes the best designed cars out there. They really only have one problem and that's reliability. Unfortunately, their reliability is bad enough that I won't buy another one unless I'm at a point financially where I don't mind leasing a new car every 3 years.

 

If you consider Audis expensive, compare them to Mercedes. Audis are just as well built and appointed but Mercedes cost even more. Of course, Mercedes' reliability is just as bad as Audi these days.

[pdw]

here's the problems with Audi's (being a former Audi owner).

 

1.) Some people can afford to buy the car. Some people can't afford to buy the car and MAINTAIN the car.

2.) Audi's are overpriced.

3.) If you buy a BMW you have to buy a couple of black turtle necks.

4.) BMW > Audi. but...

5.) Subaru > Audi however

6.) BMW >= Subaru

 

That in mind, I think it's safe to say a LGT is able to beat just about any 330i out there simply because people don't know how to drive those cars. Audi engine's will run for 200k miles. BMW engines will run for maybe 250k miles. Subaru engines are PROVEN to last over 500k miles on the FACTORY built engine.

 

There's a guy I know up in Seattle that has a '93 Legacy wagon with 526,000 miles on the original built engine. Regular oil changes and the thing is still running great.

 

 

The other thing to remember is... Audi/BMW is the for older crowds that aren't quite ready for a buick or maybe a cadi.

 

Beyond that, great cars, big headache to fix and hurt the pocket book.

 

Does anyone else have trouble making sense of this post?

[SWP-LegacyGT]

Sarcasim a little low?

[karamba]

Does anyone else have trouble making sense of this post?

Nope. Was perfectly clear to me - Legacy is better than the Audi and probably as good as a BMW 330i. Subaru engines outlast the other two.

[ONRAMP]

I just traded my '04 A6 on my '05 LGT. Had I driven the LGT before getting the Audi, I would not have gotten the Audi. So much of what makes a car 'better' than another is individually subjective that I don't think it's fair to say that one car is a 'better' car. The Audi had some things that were nicer than the LGT, but the LGT is more enjoyable for me to drive. That's not the case for everyone, though.

[wunderkind]

To me all the 3 cars are about the same at the end of the day. It boils down to how much you value that little 2" badge glued to the hood/grille.

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

^^^ Not true at all, drive a Legacy GT for a week then drive a 330 for a week and their are many obvious difference between the cars. I prefer the BMW its most definatley a better car and more fun to drive, but the Legacy is also a great car, at a cheaper price too. Reliablility though is really not on the Subarus side if you look at recent surveys. Personally I have had a few problems with my Legacy, another one just popped up today that needs to be looked at, on the other hand I have never had a non scheduled service for the 330 in the 3 years I've had it. If you have the money I would go with the 330 everytime but I certainly dont mind the Legacy as an alternative.

[iclimb513]

I think you need to consider the price point as the equalizer.

 

For example, in the last few months I've been mulling over what car to buy to replace my aging 1994 toyota pickup truck.

 

I decided that I really could afford to spend no more than $23,000.

 

I also decided I wanted an AWD car with at least decent appointments and which was fun to drive AND HAD TO BE RELIABLE!!!! Or at the very least come with a decent warranty.

 

That led me to the following:

 

2002 BMW 325XI with roughly 40,000 miles - stock warranty

2002 A4 3.0 quattro with roughly 40,000 miles - stock warranty

2003 A4 1.8T quattro with roughly 30,000 miles - stock warranty

2005 legacy GT ltd nearly new (5000 miles) - stock warranty

 

I test drove all of them (manual tranny).

 

The BMW can't get out of its own way. The 325Xi only has 170 hp and is a dog in acceleration. Besides that it's a nicely appointed car but would be near the end of its warranty life. Although that version is rated pretty reliable, however is expensive to fix if it needs something.

 

The A4 1.8T was of course nicely fit and finished but also slow. The 3.0 was acceptably quick and was going to be my pick until I did some research and discovered Audi's absolutely ABYSMAL reliabilty ratings when compared to other manufacturers.

 

I did research ranging from looking all over the net (audiworld, usenet, edmunds, consumer reports, a zillion car forums) and time and again the message was that the Audi in general (and the A4 specifically) from those years IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED.

 

Worse yet was the consistent stories of shoddy treatment at the hands of dealerships and Audi of America, even with warranty still in tact.

 

And you would not believe the way some of the morons at Audiworld would rationalize it and downright deny the facts. They would claim "Oh well its a performance car so of course maintenance costs are high". What a crock. No one over there would just admit that Audi is a poorly engineered car and you have to accept it. For God's sake, consumer reports lists the 2002 A4 as a USED CAR TO AVOID. But tell that to the audiworld apologists and they'll claim everything from "bad data" to sunspots.

 

It's a shame too because the A4 3.0 is the car I liked best in terms of looks, fit and feel. I just will not accept that part of the Audi experience is frequent breakdowns and expensive fixes. No f**ing way.

 

Then I got turned onto the legacy gt ltd. For the same price I can get a car with YEARS left on the warranty, that is faster, handles every bit as good and is from a company known for reliability and decent customer service. The interior isn't as nice, but you know what? The trade off is totally worth it.

 

At first I liked the exterior look of the A4 better but the more I look at the LGT the more I like it. Plus I hardly see any of them around on the road. Meanwhile every day I see at least 10 A4's on the road (which must mean 20 more are on a lift somewhere hee hee).

 

No contest.

 

Now, apparently Audi has gotten its act together on the more recent A4 (2005 and later) but those are WAY out of the price range.

 

So, if price doesn't matter of course go for the recent Audi.

[agctr]

BMW = Fantastic car with some really WOW "costly options"

BMW = Expensive repair and maintenance costs

BMW = Prestige

 

For mine the Subaru for the same money you wouldnt get much of a BMW due to the high costs of their options list. For the fun factor, Subaru with AWD wins hands down, more drivability and safety in AWD than RWD or FWD will ever have. Basic options on the Subaru are great and will certainly go toe to toe with the same level of options in the BMW. To buy a E90330i here in Australia will cost roughly double what it will cost to get a GT or SpecB.

 

Where Subaru really wins IMHO is the service costs.

I had my MY01 serviced yesterday for 112K MKS / 69K Miles service for AUD267.00/202.00USD, those prices are WOW when you consider the same type of service at BMW may cost tripple........ CRAZY BUT VERY VERY TRUE.

 

Tell him to go and test drive a SpecB (once available) or try the GT and watch the smile grow.

All the best

Ada///M.

 

PS Guys moving to Legacy/Liberty Vs X Thanks.

[pdw]

Nope. Was perfectly clear to me - Legacy is better than the Audi and probably as good as a BMW 330i. Subaru engines outlast the other two.

 

I'd like to see some stats on that. Audis and BMW's have their problems but if properly maintained they'll last a long, long time. You'll be replacing a lot of parts around the engine but the engine itself and the unitbodies are very strong. An example of a '93 Legacy at 500k was given. The Audi 5 cylinder will last just as long.

 

I'm not saying that makes them reliable.

[pdw]

Reliablility though is really not on the Subarus side if you look at recent surveys. Personally I have had a few problems with my Legacy, another one just popped up today that needs to be looked at, on the other hand I have never had a non scheduled service for the 330 in the 3 years I've had it.

 

I'm not sure which surveys you're looking at but if you look at Consumer Reports, you'll see that Subaru is the overall most reliable brand. JD Power will disagree but I don't like their methodology.

 

For reliability, I'd rank it as Subaru>>>>>>>BMW>>Audi.

[eles1]

I

Worse yet was the consistent stories of shoddy treatment at the hands of dealerships and Audi of America, even with warranty still in tact.

 

meh... I guess the grass is always greener. I know several people who own Audis and swear by them. They love the car, service, everything.

 

FWIW, there are plenty of crappy Subaru dealerships out there too.

[JAS]

Thanks very much for the replies / input everyone. (It took me a while to figure out what happened to this thread after it moved).

 

I think I'm on-board with most of your opinions. It seems that the Legacy is probably in the same league as the other two in terms of performance, and likely a better value due to lower initial and maintenance costs. However, it probably is not fair to expect the same level of refinement / luxury / panache.

 

I probably won't get too far trying to push the Legacy in my Dad's case, although hopefully he will give it a test drive just for kicks.

 

Thanks again !

 

JAS

[pdw]

Thanks very much for the replies / input everyone. (It took me a while to figure out what happened to this thread after it moved).

 

I think I'm on-board with most of your opinions. It seems that the Legacy is probably in the same league as the other two in terms of performance, and likely a better value due to lower initial and maintenance costs. However, it probably is not fair to expect the same level of refinement / luxury / panache.

 

I probably won't get too far trying to push the Legacy in my Dad's case, although hopefully he will give it a test drive just for kicks.

 

Thanks again !

 

JAS

 

I think you summarized it well on where the Legacy is. One thing he might consider is if he gets an A4 2.0T, APR sells a chip that brings the car up to 240HP/290ft-lbs. Of course, Audi will void your warranty immediately if they know but that's a different story.