Hype4Lyfe Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Hello folks, I have tried searching the forum but have not yielded any answers. I have a 2010 Legacy 3.6R and for the past few months I have been experiencing extended long crank issues. I woke up this morning after having the car parked overnight in my driveway and now it won't start. The engine is turning over but I get absolutely zero for it to start. The weather just got really cold overnight but I am not sure if that has anything to do with it. I had the battery tested and it tested 100%, which I figured since it is not even a year old. I know that there was a reflash of the ECM available but to my understanding, this is for the CVT models and not the 3.6R. I have experienced the following before it stopped: - extended crank ( usually kicks on after 2nd turn of the key) - slight backfire once it starts, and smoke comes out the exhaust pipe - slight delay in acceleration when gas pedal is pressed down. My question is, could this be a problem with my crankshaft position sensor? If so where is it located on this engine type? I want to test it with a multimeter so that I can determine if it is bad. I do not have any error codes according to my OBDII Scanner either which is baffling. My nephew had this issue with his Nissan and it was a relatively easy fix. Any help would be appreciated, as I travel for work and heavily rely on my car. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 How many miles on it, have you checked any of the plugs? The crank sensor or cam sensor could be the issue, a scanner will tell you since either sensor will set a check engine light for no signal. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Few I had this happen on my forester it was the cam sensor. Bought one from autozone and never had another problem. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 How many miles on it, have you checked any of the plugs? The crank sensor or cam sensor could be the issue, a scanner will tell you since either sensor will set a check engine light for no signal. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Plugs are still new as I haven't had the car for a year yet and the dealer put new plugs in prior to the sale of the car. The car has about 91,000 miles on it and I bought it with 77,000 miles on it. It will be 1 year at the end of the month. Do you know where the physical location of the crankshaft and camshaft sensor is on the 3.6? The Factory Service Manual doesn't do a great job as to telling you where exactly it is. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Apparently there are 4 of them on the 3.6 yay you! One on the back of each head under the metal cover and the exhaust ones are on the bottom of the head on each side near the front of the engine if I am seeing it correctly. Once you get the covers off they should be easy to spot. Now before you go through all that trouble, pull the codes from the computer and see if it points you to one sensor in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Apparently there are 4 of them on the 3.6 yay you! One on the back of each head under the metal cover and the exhaust ones are on the bottom of the head on each side near the front of the engine if I am seeing it correctly. Once you get the covers off they should be easy to spot. Now before you go through all that trouble, pull the codes from the computer and see if it points you to one sensor in particular. That's the problem, I am getting absolutely no codes. My scanner produced absolutely 0 error codes. Although, I did unplug the battery terminals to clean them prior to the scan. Darn it, I may have inadvertently cleared any codes that were there if there were any to begin with. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Try staring it again that should set a code if there is one. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Have you checked for fuel as well. If there is no code being set I would start there. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Have you checked for fuel as well. If there is no code being set I would start there. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk I just filled my tank a couple days ago. Would using 93 octane cause any harm to my engine type. I've always used 93 but could this be playing a part to my issues? Also, what would be the best way to check that fuel is reaching my engine? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DugsSin Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Sounds very familiar. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/hard-start-cold-weather-249035.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Because Racecar Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Well, you need three things. Fuel, air, and spark. I know you said you had relatively new plugs, so I would check one or two of those first because they are easy. Obviously, pick the easiest ones to get to, maybe one on each side and make sure they are ok. As for fuel, turn the car to on, before you click to turn the engine over. You should be able to listen for the whine of the fuel pump. If there is no whine, the pump might not be pumping. If there's a fuel filter, might be time to check that, too. It really sounds like fuel to me. Bad pump, clogged filter, or clogged injectors could do this, and probably wouldn't throw a code. Did the car stumble at all during normal running when it did start? 93 *might* burn out your plugs quickly if they're the wrong temp. Check'em. To check for fuel, the best, safest way is a fuel pressure test kit. Best way to get that done is a shop that can deal with spilled fuel, because there will be spilled fuel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 The fuel filter is next to the fuel pump in the tank, lol. If you just filled up and now your car wont start I would be willing to bet fuel pump as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Sounds very familiar. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/hard-start-cold-weather-249035.html I read this thread too a few months ago. I even started making sure I let the gauges sweep before I started the car. I also would let the car warm up prior to taking off. As far as the fuel pump, you can hear it activate when you turn the key and I always use either Sunoco or Shell gas. I typically go to gas stations that has constant traffic as well to make sure that I am receiving fresh gas. As for the plugs, I will have to take a look at them to see if they are fouled. I just I wish I had a garage. It's snowing currently here in Boston so it makes troubleshooting this issue more difficult. I just want to try and resolve the issue before giving up and towing the car to the dealer. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Did the car stumble at all during normal running when it did start?... There have been occasions where there would be a delay in acceleration when I pressed the gas pedal. I have also noticed very slight stutters probably twice where I couldn't understand why it happened. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 How many miles on it, have you checked any of the plugs? The crank sensor or cam sensor could be the issue, a scanner will tell you since either sensor will set a check engine light for no signal. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk So I took the time to look at my car fax that was supplied to me at the time of purchase. It looks like I was mistaken. I bought the car last February thinking that the plugs were new but that wasn't the case. The plugs were replaced a year earlier, on 1/20/14. Knowing this now, I wouldn't be surprised if the plugs are bad especially since I drive frequently and do a decent amount of stop, start, and go. I'm a field engineer if it helps you have a better understanding of the car's daily use. These plugs look like a pain to work on for a 3.6. Any suggestions, I.e. Tools or removal of components? Also, how do you remove the service plug cover for the crankshaft position sensor? I still wanted to check it if the plugs come out to be ok. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 You have to remove it to get to the plugs so take off the engine cover get a socket set and some wrenches 10 12 13 mm is usually what you will need with these cars. It should be pretty obvious where it bolts on. If you don't have the service manual try searching for 2010 service manual in this forum. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 You have to remove it to get to the plugs so take off the engine cover get a socket set and some wrenches 10 12 13 mm is usually what you will need with these cars. It should be pretty obvious where it bolts on. If you don't have the service manual try searching for 2010 service manual in this forum. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk I have the service manual. I am going to take a couple plugs off and take a look. I will try to post some pics up later. I hope that this is the only issue and nothing else. But I did find out that the previous owner must of had a rodent issue. I found small droppings underneath the engine cover along with a couple of nuts. Whatever was there also took liberty in using the engine cover padding as bedding near the crankshaft position sensor. The sensor wires still appear to be in tact though but it was completely covered with the padding. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Also, thanks again for helping me out here and making suggestions. I am new to the Subaru community and came from a Honda. This is my first horizontal based engine so I am still trying to understand its design. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 You have to remove it to get to the plugs so take off the engine cover get a socket set and some wrenches 10 12 13 mm is usually what you will need with these cars. It should be pretty obvious where it bolts on. If you don't have the service manual try searching for 2010 service manual in this forum. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk So far I got cylinders 2 & 4 out. Cylinder 2 was dry but cylinder 4 was wet. Probably from all of the attempts to start the car. So it shouldn't be a fuel delivery issue I would think. Cylinder 2 Spark Plug: http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160209/f72f9fbf76a7ca888544b2da5e7ad247.jpg Multimeter measurement: 4.21 K Ohm Cylinder 4 Spark Plug: http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160209/cbf469012cc280311b167175d093885b.jpg Multimeter measurement: 3.99 K ohm Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow_419 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 The plugs don't look out of line at all. Did you check the gap to make sure it was set correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 The plugs don't look out of line at all. Did you check the gap to make sure it was set correctly? No. I couldn't find my gapping tool at the time but I ended up finding it after I put them back in. I was thinking that I should just replace them since I am already in there and still have to check the other plugs. While I am in there I can check the gapping. But so far it seems as if the fuel is reaching the plugs. I just hope it is the plugs only that is causing this issue. Cylinder 4's plug seemed to have some slight carbon deposit on it but I cleaned it off. Maybe I should check the air filter and make sure it isn't in a crappy state, and possibly causing the MAF sensor to malfunction. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 If it was the maf it should still run, and set a cel. Did the plugs smell like raw fuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Because Racecar Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 The plugs look ok, but not great. Bit of carbon built up on there. Could be from running 93, but that's a little bit of a long shot. One side wet, other dry concerns me a little. Something in the fuel feed to one side of the engine? Other possibility could be the coils. Can you check the spark? got a plug wire induction tester handy? Could also explain the wet side, if the dry side is burning. When you say turns over, does it sound like it's trying to fire up, or just spinning on the starter? Does it shake all to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 If it was the maf it should still run, and set a cel. Did the plugs smell like raw fuel? Yea, the two plugs that I took out smelled like raw fuel. One of them was wet too. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype4Lyfe Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 The plugs look ok, but not great. Bit of carbon built up on there. Could be from running 93, but that's a little bit of a long shot. One side wet, other dry concerns me a little. Something in the fuel feed to one side of the engine? Other possibility could be the coils. Can you check the spark? got a plug wire induction tester handy? Could also explain the wet side, if the dry side is burning. When you say turns over, does it sound like it's trying to fire up, or just spinning on the starter? Does it shake all to hell? I do not have an induction tester unfortunately but i want to pick one up. I was thinking the same thing about the coils not operating properly as a theory. As far as for starting, the engine definitely is turning over. The starter is NOT making clicking noises. I've had starters go on my previous Hondas so I was definitely listening for that symptom. A couple times the car shook making it seem like it was just about to start but I stopped trying to start it until I change the plugs. This all but leads me to believe that it is related to spark. I'm just trying to find time to pull the rest of the plugs and install the new plugs I bought. I picked up the NGK IX Iridium LFD6AIX-11 stock number 6619 plugs. NGK's website shows them as compatible with the 3.6. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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