twtxSubie Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Hey guys, hopefully I can get some input on what is going on with my car. I drive a 2006 Legacy GT 2.5 Limited 5EAT. First and foremost, I'll say I did something really stupid and take the blame for it, I'm not looking for criticism as I already know I fucked up... here are the details. Events leading up to the codes: I'm a student, and my LGT is my daily. I rely on it to get to work and school, which means going more than a week without my car SUCKS. I planned on keeping the car mostly stock other than the Q300 catback I had installed. This quickly changed a few weeks ago when my stock uppipe blew shards of the cat into my turbo and blew it at 100K miles, not too upset.. it was an opportunity to get a new turbo and uppipe! I consulted a local Subaru tech (well regarded) who told me that it would be safe to install a catless uppipe (GrimmSpeed), hiflow downpipe (Invidia) and new turbo without a tune as long as I stayed out of boost and got the tune installed SOON. After consulting a few knowledgeable people, I got the consensus that it was risky (I knew this) but as long as I went easy on it, I'd be okay. I knew that I would be able to get an AP a week or two after the parts were installed so I pulled the trigger, because I needed my car SO BAD, right? The parts get installed and the car runs well without the tune and it sounds amazing.. and I'm happy. Fast forward a few days and I find out my TMIC has developed a split/leak from the added power, so I had to buy an AVO TMIC.. further cutting into my AP funds. Now at this point, the intelligent thing would have been to stop driving the car and wait for the tune, but nobody makes the best decision 100% of the time. To eliminate the leak while I waited for the new TMIC to come in, I sealed the leak with steel epoxy and it actually eliminated the leak completely, but I still needed to get rid of it for obvious reasons. P0011 and P0021 codes appear: So I'm driving to pick up the new TMIC and I'm going 75-80MPH when suddenly the car jerks (fuel cut) and there is an instant loss of power. I shut the car off immediately and pull off to the side of the road to let the engine cool down and investigate the issue. Codes P0011 and P0021 come up and I research the codes while my car cools down. The codes look like bad news, but I cleared them and turned my car back on so I could limp it to the shop. To my surprise, I didn't even need to limp the car back because the car did that for me! There is a lack of boost and power, even with the codes cleared and no CELs have returned since the incident. The car drives, shifts and sounds normal other than the lack of power. Since then I installed the new TMIC and have not been driving the car. Before I pay for the engine to be pulled for a full diagnosis, any suggestions on what the cause could be? I pulled the AVCS solenoids and even though they weren't dirty, I cleaned them anyway. I have checked all the vacuum hoses and oil lines to the turbo, they are intact and there aren't signs of leaks. I also removed the banjo bolts that everyone recommends taking out before I installed the turbo. Again, no CELs have come back on and I drove it for a good 80 miles without boost. Will a tune stop the engine from retarding the timing or is something else at fault here? Thanks for any input y'all have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Which turbo did they install ? You need to pull the down pipe and check the turbo for shaft play, there should be zero to no play in any direction. Are you sure they installed a new turbo ? You need to drain the oil and check it for metal pieces. Do not start the car again until you have done those things. There is a turbo fail sticky at the top of one of the forums, read through it. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/turbo-failure-wiki-173358.html Here's my thread from a 1000 miles after I got those codes. I got lucky, most don't. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twtxSubie Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 Which turbo did they install ? You need to pull the down pipe and check the turbo for shaft play, there should be zero to no play in any direction. Are you sure they installed a new turbo ? You need to drain the oil and check it for metal pieces. Do not start the car again until you have done those things. There is a turbo fail sticky at the top of one of the forums, read through it. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/turbo-failure-wiki-173358.html Here's my thread from a 1000 miles after I got those codes. I got lucky, most don't. I bought a used VF40 for about $300 with 50K miles on it, had it inspected by a few people and myself. Zero shaft play and it was as solid as it could be for a 50K turbo. Turbo spooled noticeably better after the install, and I'm positive they installed a new one because the old one with 100K is sitting on my desk with a completely blown shaft. I also had the oil drained and checked by the tech before the install, no signs of metal shards from what I was told, and then we put new oil in it. I'll read up on your thread, thanks for the quick reply! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 I think I had another thread about the codes, but there are a few threads with those codes, just do a google search for them. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twtxSubie Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 I think I had another thread about the codes, but there are a few threads with those codes, just do a google search for them. Believe me, I've read all of the threads I could find but none seem to match my current situation (no CELs, but lack of power stays even after the ECU is reset). I've researched how AVCS works, the possible causes of the codes, etc.. but I'm trying to see if anyone has had a similar situation to mine. Car is in the shop now, but they can't seem to find anything out of the norm without a full teardown. May take it to a different shop before I let them do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twtxSubie Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 Another thing that should be noted is that I also had to replace the BCS with the new turbo (I had a code for the BCS after the old one blew, so I got a new one). Is it possible the ECU is not recognizing the new BCS and therefore not actuating the wastegate? This is a nightmare, honestly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Have they pulled the down pipe and checked the turbo for shaft play ? If they haven't done that, its vital that they check it. Do not start the engine again until that is done. If the turbo's fine, do a vacuum leak check 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twtxSubie Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 Have they pulled the down pipe and checked the turbo for shaft play ? If they haven't done that, its vital that they check it. Do not start the engine again until that is done. If the turbo's fine, do a vacuum leak check I believe that is first on their list of things to do. I will know soon. Do you think there is any chance the turbo is okay? When the fuel cut happened, I didn't hear any strange noises from the turbo or engine bay.. just a fuel cut and power loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Lets hope the turbo is ok. If so, then may be there is a chance a hose popped off, we tell everyone to zip tie all vacuum hose on these cars. Oh yea, welcome to the forum. This is where you need to be with this car, all the info is here. You'll want these to, http://people.csail.mit.edu/ilh/vacation/ 05/06 GT start at page 1604 in the 2005 manual. In the back of the book are flow charts on how things work. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 My guess is, if the OCV are both working OK, then there could be an oil delivery issue or something. Do what MaxCap advised you to do and also find a way to pull a 'learning view' (google that if you don't know what that means) of your car and see what's going on. check out this tool: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/btssm-bluetooth-adapter-app-229709.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twtxSubie Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 Just heard back from the shop, they pulled the downpipe and turbo and the shaft is completely seized. Will a rebuild kit work or should I just get a new turbo? I'm looking into this right now: http://gpopshop.com/products-page/ihi-borg-warner-kits/ihi-rhf5-complete-rebuild-kit-for-subaru-vf40-application/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Contact JmP6889928, he's our go to guy for turbo's. Ask him before you do anything. Next would be to make sure the oil feed line is clear, why did the turbo seize ? Is there metal chips in the tmic ? May be drop the oil pan and make sure its clean. If there's metal in the oil pan, replace the oil cooler and oil pump. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 ^+1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twtxSubie Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 Contact JmP6889928, he's our go to guy for turbo's. Ask him before you do anything. Next would be to make sure the oil feed line is clear, why did the turbo seize ? Is there metal chips in the tmic ? May be drop the oil pan and make sure its clean. If there's metal in the oil pan, replace the oil cooler and oil pump. Seems like the turbo seized because of oil starvation due to a faulty OCV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saltysubie Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 A P0011, P0021, and a seized turbo unfortunately means a substantial loss of oil circulation throughout the engine but I'm guessing you figured that out already. I don't see a mention in this post of checking oil level? I know it's a silly question, but just eliminating the obvious first. If the oil level was okay, and both heads had a loss of oil supply to the OCV's, and the turbo lost oil and seized, then that would point me to something common in the oil circulation path like the pump being bad, the oil filter being plugged up, the oil cooler being plugged up, worn bearing surfaces that are preventing good oil pressure in the system, etc. All of this is speculation but you get the idea. It sounds like it was sufficient to activate the P0011 and P0021 codes simultaneously and starve the turbo but not sufficient to activate the low oil pressure switch. That didn't come on, right? If it had activated the low oil pressure switch, consider the engine is likely toast. Whatever it turns out to be (low oil level or insufficient flow/pressure), the symptoms still do not look good for your engine. Drop that oil pan and check for metal in the bottom of the pan. Draining from the plug and checking the oil that comes out is not going to tell the whole story. Shine a light on the bottom of the pan and look for the small glitter (and/or larger chunks). If it's there, you have metal in your oil from the previous turbo's shaft event or worn bearing surfaces or both. If it looks okay, put it back using the Threebond gasket maker. From that point, you'll at least have a little more confidence as to whether your engine is even worth trying to save. The problem though is that you sound like you need this car to be reliable and you are somewhat depend on it. At this point, even if you don't see the glitter, it does start to give less confidence in the engine. The advice given above is good. Let it guide you in your decisions. This engine needs sufficient oil at adequate pressures at all times. True of any car but these engines seem to have a sensitive relationship with oil. If it's not clean and oil pressure is not good, it's time to replace the block and a lot of oil-related accessories in order to get some confidence back that it will be reliable. If things look okay, and you end up putting it back together, and you check that your oil pressure is doing what it's supposed to be doing, and a compression/leak down test is done and looks okay, please consider investing in a good, filtered oil line to the turbo. Infamous Performance and Tuning has a custom one made especially for this car. If the engine dies again, at least it will minimize the chance of metal from the engine taking out the turbo. As you've likely read in this forum, an engine failure can take out a turbo and a turbo failure can take out the engine. There are so many stories here of someone replacing one and the other ends up failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saltysubie Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Seems like the turbo seized because of oil starvation due to a faulty OCV. You got both codes, P0011 and P0021. I don't think it was a bad OCV by itself taking out the turbo. Again, I'd look for something more common. See, what doesn't make sense to me is that you got both codes at once. The OCV's on each head are fed by separate oil lines, one coming from the back of the passenger head, and the other coming from the front of the driver head. So, if you got both at once, then you must have had a systematic loss of oil pressure. But then you say that you let the car cool down, cleared the codes, and the CEL's did not return. Did you add oil at that point? How did you have a loss of oil pressure and then it suddenly become okay after it cooled down? And you say that you drove it after and it ran okay except no power because turbo had seized. That means that the OCV's were at least working well enough not to throw a CEL. This is the part that doesn't make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twtxSubie Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 A P0011, P0021, and a seized turbo unfortunately means a substantial loss of oil circulation throughout the engine but I'm guessing you figured that out already. I don't see a mention in this post of checking oil level? I know it's a silly question, but just eliminating the obvious first. If the oil level was okay, and both heads had a loss of oil supply to the OCV's, and the turbo lost oil and seized, then that would point me to something common in the oil circulation path like the pump being bad, the oil filter being plugged up, the oil cooler being plugged up, worn bearing surfaces that are preventing good oil pressure in the system, etc. All of this is speculation but you get the idea. It sounds like it was sufficient to activate the P0011 and P0021 codes simultaneously and starve the turbo but not sufficient to activate the low oil pressure switch. That didn't come on, right? If it had activated the low oil pressure switch, consider the engine is likely toast. Whatever it turns out to be (low oil level or insufficient flow/pressure), the symptoms still do not look good for your engine. Drop that oil pan and check for metal in the bottom of the pan. Draining from the plug and checking the oil that comes out is not going to tell the whole story. Shine a light on the bottom of the pan and look for the small glitter (and/or larger chunks). If it's there, you have metal in your oil from the previous turbo's shaft event or worn bearing surfaces or both. If it looks okay, put it back using the Threebond gasket maker. From that point, you'll at least have a little more confidence as to whether your engine is even worth trying to save. The problem though is that you sound like you need this car to be reliable and you are somewhat depend on it. At this point, even if you don't see the glitter, it does start to give less confidence in the engine. The advice given above is good. Let it guide you in your decisions. This engine needs sufficient oil at adequate pressures at all times. True of any car but these engines seem to have a sensitive relationship with oil. If it's not clean and oil pressure is not good, it's time to replace the block and a lot of oil-related accessories in order to get some confidence back that it will be reliable. If things look okay, and you end up putting it back together, and you check that your oil pressure is doing what it's supposed to be doing, and a compression/leak down test is done and looks okay, please consider investing in a good, filtered oil line to the turbo. Infamous Performance and Tuning has a custom one made especially for this car. If the engine dies again, at least it will minimize the chance of metal from the engine taking out the turbo. As you've likely read in this forum, an engine failure can take out a turbo and a turbo failure can take out the engine. There are so many stories here of someone replacing one and the other ends up failing. Thanks for the reply! I've been watching the oil levels closely and while it was a tad bit low, it wasn't alarmingly low but I did get a full oil change and have kept my eyes peeled for leaks. There wasn't a low oil indicator that came on. Definitely looking into a full compression/leakdown test and testing the oil pressure to find where the issue is. Waiting for this nightmare to be over.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twtxSubie Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 You got both codes, P0011 and P0021. I don't think it was a bad OCV by itself taking out the turbo. Again, I'd look for something more common. See, what doesn't make sense to me is that you got both codes at once. The OCV's on each head are fed by separate oil lines, one coming from the back of the passenger head, and the other coming from the front of the driver head. So, if you got both at once, then you must have had a systematic loss of oil pressure. But then you say that you let the car cool down, cleared the codes, and the CEL's did not return. Did you add oil at that point? How did you have a loss of oil pressure and then it suddenly become okay after it cooled down? And you say that you drove it after and it ran okay except no power because turbo had seized. That means that the OCV's were at least working well enough not to throw a CEL. This is the part that doesn't make sense to me. You're as puzzled as I am.. I did not add oil directly after the incident because I didn't have any on hand. I got an oil change the next day. And it didn't suddenly become okay after it cooled down, the car continued to lack power but still drove. Again, no CELs ever came back on. I'm at a loss until the shop can give me some sort of diagnosis. I believe they are doing everything they can to check the oil system/compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saltysubie Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Yup, that is a strange one. Wish I could be more help but I think I'm missing something. Anyways, I would definitely pull the oil pan as a first step. Hope it all turns out okay for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saltysubie Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Maybe while you have the oil pan pulled, take off the oil pickup and look carefully for cracks at the brazed joints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twtxSubie Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 ^ I'll do that. Shop has found that there was a medium to large oil leak from the passenger side valve cover gasket. I'm assuming this is probably the cause of all my troubles. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 No, the oil leak at the valve cover is very common on these cars. They all do it. Some worse than others. There's a picture of mine in the click here link. Good thought about checking to oil pick up tube for cracks. Great post there by Saltysubie too. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twtxSubie Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 No the oil leak there is very common on these cars. They all do it. Some worse than others. There's a picture of mine in the click here link. I've noticed a small leak from that spot before, but now that I think about it, I had been seeing smoke come from the engine bay before. If I let this go untreated long enough, it couldn't have created any pressure problems? The shop said it was leaking a significant amount of oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Correct, the valve cover area is not a high pressure area just volume of oil sitting there and a bad seal job from the factory. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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