Kronos87 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Hello all, I've been a long time lurker, but this is my first post. Thanks to this forum I have tackled a number of projects on my bone stock 2008 LGT with 125K miles. Thank you all! The most recent project is to change the head gaskets. I had exhaust gases in the coolant. The car never got hot or at least not really hot. A little bit elevated on the temp gauge, but I quickly shut it down. I added coolant and burped the system and it returned to normal temperatures. I ran it for a while this way, but I was careful to always check coolant levels and never let it get low or the engine to get hot. So, I finally found the time to pull the motor and tear it down. I had the heads cleaned, tested, and milled. They received a clean bill of health from the machinist although he noted that the #4 exhaust valve was a little black. He also warned me that subies like to burn exhaust valves around 180K miles. I decided I was going to button it back up and run it until then and I would freshen the heads and do a new short block at that time. However once I flipped the motor over and started looking at the cylinders more closely, I realized there is some scoring on the #2 and #4 cylinders. The attached photos are of these cylinders. I can feel the scoring with my nail. What do you guys think? The car was running fine. It never used any oil. It never smoked or any other signs of significant issues. Does this look like a ring land issue? Was it a overheated/expanded piston skirt? The way I see it I have a few options: 1) Button it up and run until it blows up 2) New short block with the heads as is 3) New short block and freshen the heads now. And I guess I'll add one more that I am not likely to do: 4) Shadetree mechanic ball hone or something.... The other complicating factor is that funds are a little tight right now (I just moved and took a new job and the wife hasn't found work yet). This means I would prefer to run it as is for a while if I thought it would last long enough. Again, I was already planning to do a new build in 60K miles or so... Any advice would be appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRM Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 If you can feel it with a finger nail it's worthy of an inspection and honing of the cylinders. And a healthy shortblock replacement wouldn't hurt at all sense it's already torn down. Definitely have the heads completely done while it's out. And you live in Colorado. Hell of a lot of indipendant subaru shops to choose from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Read my click here link, if you plan to keep the car, option 3 is the way to go. If you can rebuild the block after the machine shop measures the bores and hones or bores them you can save some money. Most of us just get a ej257, everything is new, get ARP head studs, etc. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos87 Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 I read about your build Max. It has been a valuable resource throughout the project. I already have ARP head studs. I wasn't planning to go cheap on the HG redo. I've got lots of new hoses, oil pump, full gasket set, etc. I just wasn't expecting to see scoring like this. This car has been very well maintained. I'm the 2nd owner and I bought at 43K miles. It was dealer maintained until 80K when the warranty expired. Since then I've done the maintenance according to factory recommendations. It was on the stock tune (car is bone stock) and the #4 exhaust valve was a little black. The #2 exhaust valve wasn't bad even tho that cylinder is scored also. The machinist thought the heads were pretty good. He said they leaked a little but they weren't bad. He thought it was fine to just mill them especially since the car was running well. But I'm torn. I mean if I get a new shortblock I also want "like new" heads. I'll try to get a picture of the valves up in a few. I am definitely considering a new short block. I am struggling because of the $$ and I had hoped to go state 2 when it was new short block time. I really don't think stage 2 is in the cards at this time. Should I try to pull the pistons and look further? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compsurge Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I'd just bite the bullet and put the new shortblock in (or hone + new pistons) and get the valves replaced. Then you won't have to deal with this headache again. I don't know why you're putting the head back on without swapping the valve. Spend the money now to replace it. The stock tune has a tendency to burn valves. That wear on the cylinders could be broken ringlands that haven't separated yet. I don't think you really have a choice to go stage 2 at this point. Your engine is a timebomb and is going to come back out and your costs will be greater doing everything twice. You won't care about stage 2 if you don't have a running car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos87 Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 I don't think you really have a choice to go stage 2 at this point. Your engine is a timebomb and is going to come back out and your costs will be greater doing everything twice. You won't care about stage 2 if you don't have a running car. I guess my previous post was confusing. I never planned stage 2 on this short block even before I opened it up. The plan was to do a proper build a little further down the line. I'm just bummed since I can't swing the build I wanted right now. Oh well. I'll call the heads guy and discuss the heads further. He said the heads were good especially compared to what he usually sees which is why they didn't get new valves. But I feel like if I am doing a short block now, then maybe I should have new valves put in. The heads guy is very good, but his current wait time for a head rebuild is sometime in 2016. Although, I have to find a new machinist for the block anyway. Thanks for the advice guys. My gut told me the short block needed attention as soon as I saw it. I just wanted to get some other opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Your most cost effective route is to do it all now, go at least stage 1 to get it off the OEM MAP. That way you'll have many years of enjoyment as I am. You cam go stage 2 later on. Do it right the first time, the payback is priceless. If you've been reading my post over the years you can see how much pleasure my wagon gives me. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyRuu Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 found these the other day, might be the price and minimum of what you need to get you back on the road for now and plan out your improvements later, im surprised they aren't gone. http://denver.craigslist.org/ptd/5288056692.html not as clean as yours but they said they don't have that scoring. the only way to tell if it was the ringland or the piston skirt is to crack the case, then you can look at your bearings as well. probably would not hurt but will take more time. i ve been looking for new short blocks also denver is full of them which is a bit of a commute for me but might have to just do it one of these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos87 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 found these the other day, might be the price and minimum of what you need to get you back on the road for now and plan out your improvements later, im surprised they aren't gone. http://denver.craigslist.org/ptd/5288056692.html not as clean as yours but they said they don't have that scoring. Thanks Rusty! This would present an potential inexpensive option. $300 is pretty darn cheap for a short block with no obvious issues. I think I am starting to talk myself into the new short block option. I'm undecided about picking one up at Heuberger's or having mine rebuilt w/ forged pistons. Also, I attached a couple photos of the valves on the Driver's side head. The first photo is Cylinder #4 and the second is #2. The single worst valve was on #4. Again, my machinist thought they were ok, but I explained to him that I was planning a build later anyway. I am second guessing since I'm probably building the new motor now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos87 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Your most cost effective route is to do it all now, go at least stage 1 to get it off the OEM MAP. That way you'll have many years of enjoyment as I am. You cam go stage 2 later on. Do it right the first time, the payback is priceless. If you've been reading my post over the years you can see how much pleasure my wagon gives me. I think you're right Max. It took all weekend, but I think I've come to terms with the fact that the time to do it is now instead of in a year or 2 as planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baconbits Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 What I learned with cars a while back regarding stuff like this... If you don't have the money to do it right, you definitely don't have the money to do it twice. I've always been a fan of finding a way to make the finances work such that I could do it right the first time so it'll save me more in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I think I am starting to talk myself into the new short block option. I'm undecided about picking one up at Heuberger's or having mine rebuilt w/ forged pistons. If you have no plans to increase power no reason to go with forged. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos87 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 If you have no plans to increase power no reason to go with forged. I am/was thinking about going to stage 2 or 2.5. I realize the stock short block will hold that power. I just wanted to see how the price compares. I also feel like maybe I should bite the bullet and do it now. I mean who wants to put a stock turbo with 125K miles on it back on a new engine? Now I'm thinking about either a rebuild/upgrade of the VF46 or switch to a VF52. I am also thinking that a tune is in store regardless so it would make more sense to do the exhaust now also. The mission creep is endless! OB: I also notice your car is Cryotuned. How do you like it? I will likely be contacting him as he is local to Denver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compsurge Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 A good recipe: Jmp billet or VF52, fueling mods, stock engine, downpipe, uppipe, tune. I'm cryotuned as well and it has been pretty good considering my car's idiosyncrasies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I'm on stock fueling, stock pistons, over 61,000 miles at 21psi. Engine runs great. For your location cyro is the way to go for a tune. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmaresmk Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 If your plans are under 350whp than stock block. over 350 to 450 use 4032 forged with tight clearances. Check out Rallispec street blocks. obviously do not need to buy from them but it gives you an idea on what they use. Bren has their motors with over 100K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merc6 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 What I learned with cars a while back regarding stuff like this... If you don't have the money to do it right, you definitely don't have the money to do it twice. I've always been a fan of finding a way to make the finances work such that I could do it right the first time so it'll save me more in the long run. So true. Not only did I have my car back off the road months after going the cheap route, I was blessed with 2 healthy kids putting the build on hold for quite a bit. A good recipe: Jmp billet or VF52, fueling mods, stock engine, downpipe, uppipe, tune. I'm cryotuned as well and it has been pretty good considering my car's idiosyncrasies. I went JmP Billet VF52 but you have to factor in finding a legit core and having it rebuilt vs taking your already in hand core and having it rebuilt. 2005 Satin White Pearl Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Unlimited 5EAT (Project Car) 2019 Agate Black Ford Explorer XLT 4WD (DD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos87 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 I'm on stock fueling, stock pistons, over 61,000 miles at 21psi. Engine runs great. For your location cyro is the way to go for a tune. I like your wagon a lot Max. I think I may do a build very similar to yours. I went JmP Billet VF52 but you have to factor in finding a legit core and having it rebuilt vs taking your already in hand core and having it rebuilt. A JmP Billet VF52 (or VF46) is tempting, but I live driving distance to Heuberger's. A new VF52 is only $1030, and I can probably have it tomorrow. Not sure what JmP charges, but finding a VF52 core might take too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 At least talk with JmP and see what he can do for you. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merc6 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 A JmP Billet VF52 (or VF46) is tempting, but I live driving distance to Heuberger's. A new VF52 is only $1030, and I can probably have it tomorrow. Not sure what JmP charges, but finding a VF52 core might take too long. Not gonna lie, finding one was extremely "FUN" because they all looked good. Luckily this was my 2nd go at locally finding a turbo to place my hands on and check for shaft play before paying. That's the scary part about getting a used one online, ask as many questions as you can about the turbo if need be. I turned down 4 cheaply and or reasonably listed ones based on JmP's quick glance. You would have to ask JmP what the difference is between stock and 11 blade billet wheel VF52 is. Time was on my side so I was able to wait it out where you may want to get back on the road and on with your life. If I was in a time crunch I would have just sent off my VF46 and been content for a few years. Sure you already used google but here was 46 vs 52 side by side 46 top 52 bottom http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k280/merc6/LGT/FD7242D1-519D-4A23-AE3E-9CF8D3DE7FCD_zpssg2ryhzt.jpg~original 46 left 52 right http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k280/merc6/LGT/14A83EA1-47C5-49D6-9350-2F21592BAF80_zpsakddfmdn.jpg~original 52 top 46 bottom http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k280/merc6/LGT/46930333-DD9F-4F6E-99BD-4A461B1D319D_zpszh3ue3rn.jpg~original didn't think to do this with the 46 but here is a dime with the 52 http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k280/merc6/LGT/D123856F-459F-45EF-81D1-67882A95A700_zpspqpsxxnq.jpg~original After it was said and done, VF 52 with 11 blade wheel cleaned up real nice http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k280/merc6/LGT/F9D4741D-A762-4D13-8E52-E78FE3B8A5DD_zpsbl48olsx.jpg~original http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k280/merc6/LGT/2B8D7444-B1D6-465E-BFD5-D6BC544DEEAF_zpserxroc2u.jpg~original 2005 Satin White Pearl Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Unlimited 5EAT (Project Car) 2019 Agate Black Ford Explorer XLT 4WD (DD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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