MTBwrench Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 So I bough the Accessport V3, and flashed the stage 1 OTS tune. All good and dandy, my wagon runs significantly smoother, and better all through the power band. Yay! But... I noticed today that my DAM has dropped to 0.875, and theres no feedback knock happening according to my live gauges on the AP. When cruising, fine knock learning will range from .25 to 1.27, and straight back to zero when more than minimal throttle is applied. AF learning values were consistently: A:11.4% B:0.3% C0.9% D:0%. I did as much of a 3rd gear pull as highway traffic would allow, see attached below. The patient is a 2005 OBXT, all stock except for a GrimmSpeed catless up pipe, and a ton of stickers for extra horsepowerz! p.s.- I reset the ECU and DAM started off at 0.750 per usual, rose to 1.0 within a few minutes of spirited driving(motor was warm), and then decreased to 0.875 after a cold start and five minutes worth of driving. Any help is greatly appreciated! datalog5.csv MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serx7 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Feedback, fine learning and rough correction (DAM) are different modes of knock control. Just b/c you don't see FBKC doesn't mean DAM won't change. The positive values for FLKC show the ECU is experimenting w/ adding back small amts of timing to see if noise/knock occurs or not. The values change as you run through various load/rpm points. This Romraider writeup is a good read on Subaru knock control: http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic1840.html Your AF Learning 1A is quite high, probably a vacuum leak. Check for loose/torn hoses, don't forget to check the coupler at the IC outlet. Mine has never torn, but many ppl here have had them tear. I wouldn't expect your IC to be leaking at your boost levels, but you never know. Your log doesn't contain much useful information. I typically log the following parameters: A/F Sensor 1 Ratio (AFR) Boost Calculated Load Dynamic Advance Multiplier Feedback Knock Fine Knock Learning Gear Position Knock Sum Ignition Timing Inj Duty Cycle MAF Voltage RPM TD Boost Error Throttle Position Wastegate Duty Cycle If you want to see where your DAM dropped/drops, you'll need to reset the ECU and then datalog continuously so the log will catch it when it occurs. I'd recommend finding/fixing what's causing your high AF Learning 1A first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBwrench Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 I'm working on fixing the AF learning as we speak, I'm very new to the boxer layout so progress is slow. I'll also add that the car has 193K on it. So... theres a lot of old sensors on it... namely the MAF and front AF sensor just before the up-pipe. I'm guessing those are my culprits, or a bad turbo inlet.... I'll reset the ECU today, let it idle for five minutes, and then drive, we shall see what happens. I noticed I get a feedback knock value of -2.8 when applying partial throttle in 5th gear, just as the TC unlocks a little more. I log the param's you recommend as well and post back with results. Whats weird is I flashed this tune last week, and three days later the DAM was still solid at 1, and all knock tables in my logs were at zero. The only thing that's changed is ambient temp (about 30 degrees warmer), and I filled up at a different gas station. Still Shell V-Power though... MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBwrench Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 Okay, took some logs I reset the ECU, let it idle for five minutes, and started my commute. DAM started at 0.750 as per usual, and rose to 1.0 after two miles worth of driving. I set the AP to monitor the specific parameters and set off on my way, logging periodically. I logged about 11 times, and two of them showed knock of -2º. Both situations were in 5th gear (5EAT), at less than 2500RPM, and a low calculated load, rolling on to roughly 40-50% throttle. And a side note: although I didn't log it, feedback knock spiked to -4.0 at some point according to the AP live gauges. DAM has stayed at 1 so far and no learned knock correction, the 30 miles I've driven it. Any ideas? I'm new to tuning and all this knock stuff, but from what I've read, feedback knock is a bad thing? I'm not concerned with the knock sum, every time I take off my parking brake or close my hood it goes up...datalog8.csvdatalog10.csv MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serx7 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Knock in general isn't a good thing but it's much more worrisome at higher loads (eg: heavy to wide open throttle) where knock can more readily cause damage. Intermittent/infrequent knock during cruise or at low engine loads isn't usually something to worry about too much, but in your case it appears to happen more often than intermittently and sometimes leads to learned corrections and/or DAM changes. A vac leak can contribute to that (fuel trims in play), but it could also be caused by something rattling underhood (eg: loose turbo heat shield or exhaust heat shields, etc). When I was chasing a suspected false knock situation 1.5 yrs ago, I used the AP to apply a global -3 to -5 deg timing reduction and went out for a medium length drive, varying throttle input gradually/sharply/etc. The knock I kept seeing in the logs did not go away with the global timing reduction, which led me to start checking around underhood. In my case, the shop that my car's prev owner used, had the IPR TMIC installed such that it was just barely touching the pitch stop mount. Under part throttle/moderate boost, it would vibrate against the pitch stop mount. Once I fixed that clearance issue, my datalogs cleared up nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compsurge Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 If you have AF learning #1 values that are large (>5%), you should start looking for a vacuum leak. If you can't find it, it is there somewhere. I have the same issue with my car and I'm hopefully going to finally solve it once and for all this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBwrench Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 I know I've got one somewhere, the turbo inlet looked pretty old and crappy when I replaced my turbo, but it wash;t in the funds to get a new one and honestly I'm saving that project for when I replace all my fuel lines this summer. I plan on getting the nice red Perrin inlet, and Samco BOV hose as well. I'm suspecting that maybe my intake-TGV gaskets are leaking. I know these have had issues in the past. Mine is only a 2005, but it has a crapload of miles... I looked under the hood, there's no hoses etc that I can see that need to be replaced, BUT I have a super noisy injector on cylinder #2... maybe thats creating a lean condition causing my knock? MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compsurge Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Get OEM inlet. No need for anything else. The injector is probably fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 can you post an LV? You should also log 'roughness misfire' for all cylinders and inspect these values at cold and warm idle. Hopefully, they are all zeros.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBwrench Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 Get OEM inlet. No need for anything else. The injector is probably fine. I was going to, but the cheapest I've found one is $150ish, and I can get a nice silicone inlet, that'll last a lot longer for not too much more. I know it's completely unnecessary though. And Ive heard the boxer engines have all sorts of ticks and noises and such, so I guess I'll just chalk up the injector to that? can you post an LV? You should also log 'roughness misfire' for all cylinders and inspect these values at cold and warm idle. Hopefully, they are all zeros.. I would if I oculd, but as of now I only have the accessport available to me. I don't have the computer, or the funds for a tactrix setup right now. I logged cylinder roughness in all 4 cylinders, with a 60° coolant temp and 200° coolant temp, all zeros! Also left all 4 roughness monitors on the Accessport live view over the course of a 25 mile drive half highway half city, and the totals read 1 each in cylinders 1 and 4. I'm assuming that's negligible, no? Most likely false events asit only happened once? MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serx7 Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 W/ the exception of seeing the FLKC table, you can still get the other LV info from the AP. Just view or do a short log to see what your AF Learning #1A, B, C, D (your fuel trims) are, and check what your DAM is. LV provides the fuel trims, DAM + the FLKC table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I logged cylinder roughness in all 4 cylinders, with a 60° coolant temp and 200° coolant temp, all zeros! Also left all 4 roughness monitors on the Accessport live view over the course of a 25 mile drive half highway half city, and the totals read 1 each in cylinders 1 and 4. I'm assuming that's negligible, no? Most likely false events asit only happened once? Usually, signs of ringland/valve clearance issues would show up with a high roughness counts in a given cylinder (or more) during cold or warm idle. A count of 1 or so is nothing to worry about. But if one day, you start to see the count go from 1 to anything above 10 at idle, AND it keeps reoccurring, then you may have to do some further diagnosis. Just to give you an idea, the CEL gets triggered when the count may go up to anything above 35 or something. At least that's what I have noticed on my car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBwrench Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 W/ the exception of seeing the FLKC table, you can still get the other LV info from the AP. Just view or do a short log to see what your AF Learning #1A, B, C, D (your fuel trims) are, and check what your DAM is. LV provides the fuel trims, DAM + the FLKC table. Ill set those parameters up, and log them on the way to work today so I can get a quick spreadsheet of data. Usually, signs of ringland/valve clearance issues would show up with a high roughness counts in a given cylinder (or more) during cold or warm idle. A count of 1 or so is nothing to worry about. But if one day, you start to see the count go from 1 to anything above 10 at idle, AND it keeps reoccurring, then you may have to do some further diagnosis. Just to give you an idea, the CEL gets triggered when the count may go up to anything above 35 or something. At least that's what I have noticed on my car. Looks like my engine is doing well, for now... My I've kept the roughness counts up on the AP, and nothing more has surfaced. Also, my DAM has remained at one, and my gas mileage improved significantly in the last few days. I went from ~18avg highway, to ~22avg. So I'm hoping that maybe in combination with me changing some parts/flashing a new tune threw everything off a bit, and the ECU needed some time to relearn... MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compsurge Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I was going to, but the cheapest I've found one is $150ish, and I can get a nice silicone inlet, that'll last a lot longer for not too much more. I know it's completely unnecessary though. And Ive heard the boxer engines have all sorts of ticks and noises and such, so I guess I'll just chalk up the injector to that? I would if I oculd, but as of now I only have the accessport available to me. I don't have the computer, or the funds for a tactrix setup right now. I logged cylinder roughness in all 4 cylinders, with a 60° coolant temp and 200° coolant temp, all zeros! Also left all 4 roughness monitors on the Accessport live view over the course of a 25 mile drive half highway half city, and the totals read 1 each in cylinders 1 and 4. I'm assuming that's negligible, no? Most likely false events asit only happened once? OEM is about $90 shipped from Heuberger. The silicone inlets are a PITA to install. Most don't fit right. You don't need a Tactrix. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you could have gotten the $15 VAG-Com cable from eBay and gotten an open source tune for $150 or so. The VAG-Com only works on the 05-06 cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBwrench Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 OEM is about $90 shipped from Heuberger. The silicone inlets are a PITA to install. Most don't fit right. You don't need a Tactrix. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you could have gotten the $15 VAG-Com cable from eBay and gotten an open source tune for $150 or so. The VAG-Com only works on the 05-06 cars. In that case, I'll order and inlet from them, for roughly $70 savings that's a no brainier for me! As for the tactrix cable, I know. I'm well aware of the awesomeness of freeSSM, Romraider, and ECUflash. However, my local subie performance shop is a cobb tuner, when I get a downpipe and grimmspeed TMIC this summer, I'm going to be taking it there for a conservative dyno tune, so I'll need the accessport. No to mention I have it mounted in my wagon, and I absolutely love being able to monitor important info on the fly, like DAM, boost pressure ETC. That frees up space in my cubby pod for oil pressure/temp gauges, and hopefully soon am AVO dash pod for A/T oil temp. This car is only going to be my daily, but I'm a data whore MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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