FLlegacy Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Invoice prices are published all over the place and some dealers will actually show you the paperwork with details. The reason they are called "dealers" is bec they have many different ways of making money. From new car sales: They make their money from the volume, manufacturer kickbacks. The more cars they sell, they get more allocations hence higher profits. From used car sales: This is where they really make bunch of money. They will buy your car at a trade in value or obtain cars from auctions at wholesale value and retail these cars. Financing: Banks will give dealers kick backs or a % for using their bank. Service: Even if they sell you a car at invoice (or at their cost), most likely you will go back to that same dealer to service the car where the margins are huge. Extras: Bunch of people buy extra warranties, window tints, paint protection & etc where the margins are close to 100%. Again, this is their business and if you know how to play the game everyone will win. Unfortunately, most people are super uneducated about car purchase and very intimidated by it. They walk into a dealership, test drive a car or two and start negotiating from MSRP ++ price to down to MSRP and think they got a good deal. They also end up getting hosed by trade ins as well. If the end goal is to get a car at invoice price or even less than invoice price, it is completely doable. So you actually believe the dealer will show you what a car actually cost them from the factory? Wait I have a bridge I need to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTG Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 So you actually believe the dealer will show you what a car actually cost them from the factory? Wait I have a bridge I need to sell. I buy 3-5 cars a year and have many connections in the field. So the answer is Yes. And I am not in the market for a bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Good for you but I don't buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTG Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Good for you but I don't buy it. Since it is outdated and you wanted actual prices...here you go just for giggles. This is a confidential order sheet / pricing for a 2011 M3. These are not MSRP or Invoice prices. This is an order sheet for a BMW dealer. None of this works with used cars that you appear to be buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Since it is outdated and you wanted actual prices...here you go just for giggles. This is a confidential order sheet / pricing for a 2011 M3. These are not MSRP or Invoice prices. This is an order sheet for a BMW dealer. None of this works with used cars that you appear to be buying. http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/tgunal/Mobile%20Uploads/2011M3WholesalePricing_zps02b11289.jpg You got me, yes your horse is bigger than my lowly used one. Lol! You are not an average buyer and have said as much. My point is invoice pricing isn't as straight forward as it is purported to be. The only person who knows what was paid for car xyz by any dealer is the accountants. The invoice price is not what the dealer is paying for a car and in the big picture is as arbitrary a number as the msrp as was stated earlier. As for buying used, after buying a brand spanking new legacy in 07 we realized how much it wasn't a financially sound way to buy a car. After a month it's no longer a new car it's used so we save that money for more important things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegGTLT Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I see this "invoice price" thrown around a lot so what is the invoice price? All dealers should pay the same for the same cars so give an actual number. I suspect it is just a marketing tool to make people feel like they got a good deal. Bottom line in my experience the dealer is making money off a car sale or they won't deal with you. Accept that and move on, you are very smart to leave for a few days to think about it. I am sure there are great deals out there especially with loyal customers, but to think you got one over on a car dealer is just naive. They are in business to make money period and they do on every car they sell. There it is again! Lol! True car gives a reference to msrp for your area not the pixie dust that is called "invoice price". Just use Internet Sales I have never had an issue with buying a car that way and was always satisfied with my OTD price. $15.6k for the wife's Tribeca 7 pass limited 3 yrs old. $17.6k for my lgt limited last December. See I put actual prices up there! So again every dealer pays invoice price for the same car, yet no one knows what that price is. Seems like a pretty good scam on consumers to make them believe they are getting a deal. For a used car you can look up trade in and reasonably assume the dealer paid around fair value if that most pay wholesale auction prices regardless of the actual condition of the car. So you actually believe the dealer will show you what a car actually cost them from the factory? Wait I have a bridge I need to sell. Good for you but I don't buy it. Curious, have you ever searched on the internet for "invoice pricing X Brand" for any car? Almost any car research site will show you a standard invoice pricing to give you an idea what the dealer is paying. It won't have every kickback but my god dude, just search online and you'll see what everyone in here is referencing. I just did it on KBB.com and Edmunds.com and it was very straight forward. Please PM joeleodee For All Site Questions. He is the acting Admin and can resolve anything related to LegacyGT.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Curious, have you ever searched on the internet for "invoice pricing X Brand" for any car? Almost any car research site will show you a standard invoice pricing to give you an idea what the dealer is paying. It won't have every kickback but my god dude, just search online and you'll see what everyone in here is referencing. I just did it on KBB.com and Edmunds.com and it was very straight forward. Yes I have that's why I don't see why everyone throws that word around. Maybe before it became such a selling point invoice price meant something special. As far as I am concerned if you are happy with your car and can live with the price you did good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegGTLT Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 So you just trolled yourself on whether invoice pricing exists? Why the rant over and over about a magical number if you yourself know it exists and how to find it? The point of the conversation was to use it as a target for the OP who asked, in case you missed it, "Will dealers wiggle off of MSRP price on Legacy?". Not "Should I be happy with any price I get?" Please PM joeleodee For All Site Questions. He is the acting Admin and can resolve anything related to LegacyGT.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTG Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 You got me, yes your horse is bigger than my lowly used one. Lol! You are not an average buyer and have said as much. My point is invoice pricing isn't as straight forward as it is purported to be. The only person who knows what was paid for car xyz by any dealer is the accountants. The invoice price is not what the dealer is paying for a car and in the big picture is as arbitrary a number as the msrp as was stated earlier. As for buying used, after buying a brand spanking new legacy in 07 we realized how much it wasn't a financially sound way to buy a car. After a month it's no longer a new car it's used so we save that money for more important things. My point is dealers will share some information and yes, there is a list price that they all pay when ordering cars from manufacturer. They may very well will get kick backs based on their overall performance / other goals. You indicated that you did not buy it and that is why I posted above. I am pretty sure there are many others out there that can easily obtain such information when buying new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Invoice pricing does not include holdbacks. I have seen WRX pricing. Holdback is 2% of MSRP, Marketing assistance 2%, floor space $200 & gas $75. This doesn't include any additional dealer incentives. I assume that the Legacy has a similar holdback structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 My point is dealers will share some information and yes, there is a list price that they all pay when ordering cars from manufacturer. They may very well will get kick backs based on their overall performance / other goals. You indicated that you did not buy it and that is why I posted above. I am pretty sure there are many others out there that can easily obtain such information when buying new. Exactly they share a list price knowing full well its not the complete picture. And one invoice price does not equal another...This was where I was pointing out there is not one set "magical" number that every dealer pays for the same car. Because as TTG pointed out there is more to it. It's like seeing a politicians tax return you only see what they want to show. With a big grin on their face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan0996 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 I bought a Legacy last night and got about $1,800 off sticker. Mine was a little more expensive than the one you mentioned, but sites like edmunds.com and Consumer Reports can give you a good basis for haggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drwho7 Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 I will make a final decision Friday. Will have more time to drive, think and let them think too. I have a bad feeling they will not give me what my trade is really worth. The original salesperson I dealt with will not be there and is begging me to come another day. Problem is I am over an hour away and I cannot keep making trips. I have other reasons to be in that area Friday. I wonder if that I talk to the sales manager and ask if I do buy that the person can receive some commission as they spent a lot of time with me? I was once in sales too, so I know the feeling. I also have to think about the car I am looking at. It may NOT be available if I wait. Also if it has been there a while they may be willing to deal on it than a fresh one that has come in. My Fiat 500 Sport is loaded and in excellent condition with 11,000 miles. A 2013. Those cars did take a hit, but it should receive top dollar. It is in better shape than one of their used 2013 Subaru Legacys with 11,000 miles. In other words, I am not going to give my car away. If I have to, I will grit my teeth and drive this thing a few more years. If worse comes to worse, I can always use my Mothers car if I need more room. I own this car outright and will pay cash difference trade-in on Subaru. If all goes well, the fun will begin Friday. I am hoping they will come off of that sticker about $2000. I would be paying for some options I really do not want, but that is how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Have you looked at NADA or KBB trade in value for your Fiat? Those should give a good ball park value. If they are too low then you can try selling it privately. I usually aim for about half way between NADA trade in and dealer retail for pricing on a private sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drwho7 Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 Have you looked at NADA or KBB trade in value for your Fiat? Those should give a good ball park value. If they are too low then you can try selling it privately. I usually aim for about half way between NADA trade in and dealer retail for pricing on a private sale. I looked and was quite depressed considering how much I paid for it a year and half ago nearly. If they can hit in between retail and Trade in and then discount the Subaru maybe.. The car is extra clean and low miles. Friday I will be either sad or happy. LOL.. or maybe just content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan0996 Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Unfortunately, you take a pretty big depreciation hit with any car when you trade it in that soon. I assume your Fiat is less than two years old. I think it takes at least 3-4 years before values start to catch up with what you have in the car, and longer is better. I think it's best to not overthink these things. You only drive yourself crazy. If you like the Subie enough to take the depreciation hit on your trade, do it and don't look back. In a year it won't matter to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegGTLT Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Why are you trading in again? Maybe wait till it makes more financial sense? If it's a bad decision financially then no matter what you do you won't be happy. Just food for thought. Please PM joeleodee For All Site Questions. He is the acting Admin and can resolve anything related to LegacyGT.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Trading an nearly new car is going to be expensive depreciation hit. Even if the car dealership offers you $2000 above book value, it most likely mean that they won't take nearly as much off a 2015 Legacy (ie you will pay $2k more for a 2015 Legacy than if you didn't trade in a car). Usually the only way to get the $2k over trade in is through a private party sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drwho7 Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 Why are you trading in again? Maybe wait till it makes more financial sense? If it's a bad decision financially then no matter what you do you won't be happy. Just food for thought. I need more room and I am just not really happy with the Fiat and the customer service. Plus I had a few close calls in that car with people nearly hitting me. If they do not make a good deal, I guess I will try my hand at selling it myself. Tomorrow I will know where I stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan0996 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 When you trade in a car in many states you pay sales tax only on the cost of the car minus the value of the trade. That might effectively add $1,000 or more to what you get for the trade. You're usually better off selling it yourself anyway if you can, but the tax savings can mitigate the pain of trading your car in somewhat. Good luck with the sale of your car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drwho7 Posted November 8, 2014 Author Share Posted November 8, 2014 When you trade in a car in many states you pay sales tax only on the cost of the car minus the value of the trade. That might effectively add $1,000 or more to what you get for the trade. You're usually better off selling it yourself anyway if you can, but the tax savings can mitigate the pain of trading your car in somewhat. Good luck with the sale of your car. Well, I guess I will close out this thread for now. I made them an aggressive offer on the car. My trade is the problem. Even they were perplexed about the value as how clean my Fiat was. I thought they were going to let me have the car there for a moment. I would deal with this dealership if I were able to buy as they have been selling Subaru for years. They did wiggle quite a bit on the MSRP. I LOVED the car I drove and wanted to make it mine. The $500 mirror dimming option was a drawback for me, but sometimes you take the undesirable option anyway. IF for some reason they do not sell the car I am looking at for a period of time.. they could call me with a counter offer. For now, I will put my Fiat up for sale and see what happens. We are $2000 a part on buying the car. Not sure if I can get what I want to make this happen. The positive side is that I still have a car to drive and my money. Maybe if I wait a year, they may add or do something different to the Legacy. I appreciate everyone's help. Looks like I am stuck with Italian cars. Been trying to also sell a 1985 Alfa Romeo, but no takers. Oh well.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drwho7 Posted November 14, 2014 Author Share Posted November 14, 2014 Update: They have not moved the car I am looking at. They called me about 3 times as I was not able to answer phone. 2 different salespeople. We are now a $1000 apart. So.. maybe if it sits there a bit longer we can make a deal, There is another car identical at another dealership I might try there as well. If they still have this car around Thanksgiving they probably will budge. I just have to have patience to get a good deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenster Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Tell them to add 500 to your trade and another 500 off the car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drwho7 Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 UPDATE: I did it! They gave me $1000 off of the car and $1000 more for my trade. We fought for maybe an hour. We made the deal and.....they could NOT find the car!!!!! The car we made the deal on was gone!!! I felt kind of weird when I did not see the car out in the front, but went on ahead and bargained. They tried to push another one on me with Ivory interior. Could not find one at their other dealership, then they located one 2 or more hours away. They begged me to give them $250 more because they are losing money. I told them it was not my fault. Then they begged me to finance the remainder. I told them no. I cannot remember how many talked to me. A deal that was supposed to take a few hours went into the night. Bad rain hit me on the way home with the car, but it held the road well. It was not heavy but a mess. Car did well. Seems like I might have some wind noise on the passengers door somewhere I will need checked. Now I am officially a part of the group. I own a White Premium with Charcoal interior. I will eventually add some lower foglights. They wanted TOO much for theirs so maybe I can find a deal somewhere on some next year. I have spent enough money already plus I am trying to finish up a restoration on an old Mercedes. When I get time, I will update my profile. I have left my location out because dealers and salespeople have been know to snoop on these forums. It happened to me one time when I was having trouble with a Volvo and also trying to buy that Fiat I just traded in. Small World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda_One Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Congrats. Welcome to the forum. The wind noise on the passenger side has a fix. I planning to setup an appt in the coming week once they receive the part. Laughing at Oneself and with Other is good for the Soul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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