Acura may switch to all-wheel drive only

[MJ in PA]

You are completely right and a case in point really, these are not for die hard enthusiast, which is such a small niche (very fringe) portion of the buying public. Subaru is in this to make money after all so of course they should pursue that. But mainly people want a Camry and sometimes they want a Camry with AWD, and sometimes they want a Camry made by Honda, Nissan, Chevy, Ford, etc., majority want the plain and safe really. It's a good way to go without a doubt.

 

It's working for Subaru, but I still wonder, if you're not gonna try to carve out a premium performance niche like Audi or BMW, how hard or expensive would it be to at least offer some level of sportiness on your mainstream offering, along the lines of the Ford Fusion Titanium, which can even be had with a turbo and AWD?

[The B4]

It took Audi the past 10 years to get on equal footing with the other Germans in the minds of American customers. Subaru realized circa 2007 that they could no longer be supported by their AWD platform. Virtually none of their current advertising focuses on AWD.

[MrTris]

Subaru does NOT use a Jatco CVT. Subaru's CVT is designed in house and is not a Jatco sourced unit.

 

I don't have specifics, but I'm nearly positive that Subaru does not actually manufacture or otherwise produce their Lineartronic CVTs; FHI is not in the transmission business.

[The B4]

I don't have specifics, but I'm nearly positive that Subaru does not actually manufacture or otherwise produce their Lineartronic CVTs; FHI is not in the transmission business.

 

It's not new news. It's been established since 2009 that Subaru's latest CVTs were designed in house. Subaru designed and built it's original (and unreliable) 1989 E-CVT. It's been making its own CVTs ever since.

 

That being said, Subaru's automatic transmissions were based off of Jatco designs, but were heavily modified for Subaru duty. Jatco didn't offer direct, off the shelf units with Subaru's AWD components built into the transmission housing.

 

also, your comment regarding FHI is silly. They don't use an off the shelf AWD system nor an off the shelf camera assisted driving system. Why can't they design their own CVT?

 

The CVT is manufactured in Subaru's Oizumi transmission/engine plant and uses a Luk chain. The unit was designed in house with the help of LuK and other than the chain, LuK does not manufacture any components.

 

Figure 1 shows CVT market share. FHI stands alone.

http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedien/media/_shared_media/08_media_library/01_publications/schaeffler_2/symposia_1/downloads_11/schaeffler_kolloquium_2010_09_en.pdf

[K2e2vin]

Great job buying into the marketing. SH-AWD is the VTM-4 system from the Pilot paired with two rear clutch packs instead of an LSD. It operates as mostly FWD with the capability of sending up to 40% of the torque to the rear wheels for acceleration and 70% for cornering. It can send up to 100% of that torque to one of the rear wheels. SH-AWD's normal torque split is 90% front and 10% rear. Acura has been dumbing down SH-AWD since it was originally introduced in the RL.

 

You should really do more research on SH-AWD. It has got more advance(latest SH-AWD has "Acceleration Device" in the RLs); what you're describing sounds like VTM-4. The RDX and MDX had the 90/10 normal split while the RL was 70/30 or 80/20. Also, what's wrong with those dynamic torque splits?

[K2e2vin]

He's right, SH-AWD IS more advanced, but we have better torque split, which results in better traction. This is the main reason their AWD still gets great MPGs -- mostly FWD and only sends power to rear wheels if it has to.

 

"Better" torque split would be subjective. You could argue the STi's system is behind the Evo's AWC/AYC system on a tarmac race track, but STi's hold their own on rally courses.

[The B4]

You should really do more research on SH-AWD. It has got more advance(latest SH-AWD has "Acceleration Device" in the RLs); what you're describing sounds like VTM-4. The RDX and MDX had the 90/10 normal split while the RL was 70/30 or 80/20. Also, what's wrong with those dynamic torque splits?

 

That acceleration device only existed in the RL and guess what, the RL doesn't exist anymore. As I stated earlier, they've dumbed down SH-AWD since its original introduction in the RL.

 

SH-AWD is more advanced than Subaru's Active AWD and not as sporty as Subaru's VTD AWD while being more complex. It's not as capable as the STI's AWD with its open front diff and inability to allow the driver to fine tune the system. There's nothing special about SH-AWD other than the band aids slapped on rear of the mediocre VTM-4 system. Subaru uses yaw, throttle, brake, wheel speed, and steering angle systems even down to Active AWD now. With deep integration with VDC, EBD, ABS, and even torque vectoring on the front wheels on newer cars, Subaru offers a simpler, more transparent, more all weather capable system than SH-AWD.

 

You have stories like this where a freaking MDX with ground clearance gets stuck AFTER Subaru's most basic AWD system with no fancy bells and whistles whatsoever and no added ground clearance makes it through unimpeded. Even after the traction and stability control were turned off, it still got stuck again.

 

SH-AWD doesn't exist as a better AWD system for poor road/traction conditions. It was created to help Honda offer sportier driving that would counter the understeer inherent in a FWD platform with a transversely mounted engine.

[The B4]

"Better" torque split would be subjective. You could argue the STi's system is behind the Evo's AWC/AYC system on a tarmac race track, but STi's hold their own on rally courses.

 

The rest of world STI beat the EVO on tarmac. Only the softer UDSM STI was slower than the EVO. The EVO had the trick yaw control. The STI had the DCCD integration with the SI Drive and VDC.

[dga]

It's working for Subaru, but I still wonder, if you're not gonna try to carve out a premium performance niche like Audi or BMW, how hard or expensive would it be to at least offer some level of sportiness on your mainstream offering, along the lines of the Ford Fusion Titanium, which can even be had with a turbo and AWD?

 

I don't know why Subaru can't offer another Legacy GT? Transplant the WRX drivetrains into the Legacy and you've got yourself a another enthusiast model. Or if that is too much, why don't they bring over the Lavorg...

[FLlegacy]

I don't know why Subaru can't offer another Legacy GT? Transplant the WRX drivetrains into the Legacy and you've got yourself a another enthusiast model. Or if that is too much, why don't they bring over the Lavorg...

 

Maybe because the last Gt model barely sold...maybe their own fault for the manual only option. But if you aren't buying something don't complain when it's gone. For all the crying about the looks of the 5th gen are just as many raves for the performance improvement from 5th gen owners. Just like many others I loved the looks of the 4th gen it still is IMO the best looking subaru. But it was too small inside for a "family sedan". I still remember when noone cared what subaru's looked like because it was a subaru but when they look bland it becomes an issue...

 

As for Honda's SH-AWD it may be more advanced but to me that doesn't equate to better. The best awd of my 4 subies has been the forester's which was as basic as awd could be in an auto anyway, still handled great.

[K2e2vin]

SH-AWD is more advanced than Subaru's Active AWD and not as sporty as Subaru's VTD AWD while being more complex. It's not as capable as the STI's AWD with its open front diff and inability to allow the driver to fine tune the system. There's nothing special about SH-AWD other than the band aids slapped on rear of the mediocre VTM-4 system. Subaru uses yaw, throttle, brake, wheel speed, and steering angle systems even down to Active AWD now. With deep integration with VDC, EBD, ABS, and even torque vectoring on the front wheels on newer cars, Subaru offers a simpler, more transparent, more all weather capable system than SH-AWD.

 

You have stories like this where a freaking MDX with ground clearance gets stuck AFTER Subaru's most basic AWD system with no fancy bells and whistles whatsoever and no added ground clearance makes it through unimpeded. Even after the traction and stability control were turned off, it still got stuck again.

 

SH-AWD doesn't exist as a better AWD system for poor road/traction conditions. It was created to help Honda offer sportier driving that would counter the understeer inherent in a FWD platform with a transversely mounted engine.

 

The SH-AWD wasn't meant to be "sporty", at least not yet(we'll see with the NSX successor). Hence, why they're not even in the same market. The SH-AWD uses similar inputs. As far as vectoring, Honda intentionally designed the SH-AWD to not use ABS/brakes to control the car since it's considered "power-sapping".

 

 

As stated before, traction or what's better is subjective. I never said Acura would be a better off-road vehicle. Some of the best OHV use a regular(dumb?) 4x4 system.

 

As stated before, it was not meant to be sportier. Then the RL/Legend first came out with SH-AWD, the consensus was "it was boring, but handled exceptionally well for the size of the car". As for being transverse; I'm pretty sure that has to do with packaging more than anything. Remember the previous Legend had an longitudinal-mounted engine, in addition to that so did the sporty S2000.

 

To reiterate my previous statement; I do not believe Subaru and Acura are competing in the same market. Subaru would be equivalent to someone wanting an AWD Honda...and Subaru basically has nothing like the Acuras. If anything, Audi and BMW would be their biggest competitor.

[Yoda_One]

I am not sure what your point is. For AWD Subaru is superior for gut traction That is not just my option but look at independent test you can look it up or just look on YouTube. Yes it is better technology but that alone doesn't make better or work well in the real world. SH-AWD no way compares with Audis AWD or anything else.

[The B4]

The SH-AWD wasn't meant to be "sporty", at least not yet(we'll see with the NSX successor). Hence, why they're not even in the same market. The SH-AWD uses similar inputs. As far as vectoring, Honda intentionally designed the SH-AWD to not use ABS/brakes to control the car since it's considered "power-sapping".

 

 

As stated before, traction or what's better is subjective. I never said Acura would be a better off-road vehicle. Some of the best OHV use a regular(dumb?) 4x4 system.

 

As stated before, it was not meant to be sportier. Then the RL/Legend first came out with SH-AWD, the consensus was "it was boring, but handled exceptionally well for the size of the car". As for being transverse; I'm pretty sure that has to do with packaging more than anything. Remember the previous Legend had an longitudinal-mounted engine, in addition to that so did the sporty S2000.

 

To reiterate my previous statement; I do not believe Subaru and Acura are competing in the same market. Subaru would be equivalent to someone wanting an AWD Honda...and Subaru basically has nothing like the Acuras. If anything, Audi and BMW would be their biggest competitor.

 

You're deluded. It absolutely was designed to be a sporty driving vehicle. The whole "Super Handling" was all about sporty driving. Acura had "performance" written all over every initial press release. It was still deemed boring by the press. The Legend and S2000 didn't come with SH-AWD. Acura's Civic and Accord based products came with SH-AWD.

 

Subaru offers way more than someone wanting an AWD Honda. All of Subaru's system eclipse anything that Honda offers and the price points that the STI and high end Outbacks play in is well above that of typical Honda shoppers in the segment. Audi, BMW, and Acura don't even offer an AWD system as sophisticated as what is offered in the WRX STI... not in the R8 and not in the dearly departed (but not missed) RL.

 

Also, Acura is not competition for Audi and BMW in anything other than the MDX and MAYBE the RDX.

 

Acura is a mostly irrelevant brand. It didn't sell as many cars last year as it sold in 2002. They no longer have a brand identity and do not have the brand cache to compete with any of the luxury brands. They have been regulated to near luxury status for years now. Acura is the Japanese Buick. Rebranded and restyled FWD based cars with added content and a higher sticker price.

[K2e2vin]

My am not sure what your point is. For AWD Subaru is superior for gut traction That is not just my option but look at independent test you can look it up or just look on YouTube. Yes it is better technology but that alone doesn't make better or work well in the real world. SH-AWD no way compares with Audis AWD or anything else.

 

SH-AWD was designed around a race track. Not a rally course, but a road course. To reiterate again, I never said it was the best AWD system out there. Which AWD system is best is subjective.

[MJ in PA]

Acura used to have some nice looking cars, but they've gotten ugly in recent years. I could do without the beak-like grille and all the weird lines and angles. The original RL was a beautiful sedan though!

[K2e2vin]

You're deluded. It absolutely was designed to be a sporty driving vehicle. The whole "Super Handling" was all about sporty driving. Acura had "performance" written all over every initial press release. It was still deemed boring by the press. The Legend and S2000 didn't come with SH-AWD. Acura's Civic and Accord based products came with SH-AWD.

 

Subaru offers way more than someone wanting an AWD Honda. All of Subaru's system eclipse anything that Honda offers and the price points that the STI and high end Outbacks play in is well above that of typical Honda shoppers in the segment. Audi, BMW, and Acura don't even offer an AWD system as sophisticated as what is offered in the WRX STI... not in the R8 and not in the dearly departed (but not missed) RL.

 

Also, Acura is not competition for Audi and BMW in anything other than the MDX and MAYBE the RDX.

 

Their "Civic" product-line never had SH-AWD(which would be the RSX). I don't think I've seen the TSX with it, though can't say for sure on that but that's equivalent to a performance Accord. Even then, I believe only recently the Accord got it and it's supposed to be some sort of hybrid. I don't think any of their cars used in race series had SH-AWD though(it's been a while, but I know all the older Accord R/Si-R/Euro-R and Civic Si/Type-R were all FWD).

 

The STi AWD system is basically just refined. It's not that much more sophisticated(specifically regarding the drivetrain; the ECU still just controls front/rear bias). The STi and EVO are basically in their own market(at least in the US). If Honda/Acura wanted to step into that market it would be with the S/Si or Type-R trim Civic/RSX. As stated before, Acura is a luxury brand. This means it's primary intent is something more comfortable and usually more features. This is why I said Subaru is more akin to a AWD Honda; never said that's exactly what it was. Just looking at Honda vs Acura itself, the RDX is ~$10,000 more than the CR-V, when really it's basically a CR-V that's been "refined"(not just at the the powertrain, but interior, etc).

[K2e2vin]

Acura used to have some nice looking cars, but they've gotten ugly in recent years. I could do without the beak-like grille and all the weird lines and angles. The original RL was a beautiful sedan though!

 

I agree. I guess that's the new look in general? I've seen some other cars like that.

[The B4]

Their "Civic" product-line never had SH-AWD(which would be the RSX).

What do you think the RDX is derived from?

 

 

As stated before, Acura is a luxury brand

To split hairs, Acura would be more accurately described as a premium/near luxury brand. It's a Lincoln, Buick, Volvo... It's not a Lexus, Audi, Benz, BMW

[K2e2vin]

You do realize the RDX is a crossover, right? RDX does not equal RSX. RSX=Honda Integra.

 

Lexus is in the same boat as Acura. In addition to that, they describe themselves as luxury, even if it's your opinion that it's not.

[The B4]

You do realize the RDX is a crossover, right? RDX does not equal RSX. RSX=Honda Integra.

 

Lexus is in the same boat as Acura. In addition to that, they describe themselves as luxury, even if it's your opinion that it's not.

 

The RDX is a warmed over CR-V which is based off of the Civic.

 

Lexus is not in the same boat as Acura. Lexus was the best selling luxury brand in the US until stale product, a change in customer sentiment regarding isolated but boring luxury cars, and brake gate but a dent in that. It's already clawing back market share and is back ahead of audi and within spitting distance of BMW. It's growing faster than any other luxury brand and on its way back to #1. It's also doing it without splitting hairs into a bunch of niche segments like the Germans are (mostly successfully) doing.

 

Lexus has FWD derived vehicles: CT, NX, ES, RX

If I had to stop here, you might have a point about Lexus and Acura being the same, but unfortunately for your argument, Lexus has a far deeper portfolio.

 

Truck derived vehicles: LX and GX

 

Bespoke Lexus RWD platform: IS, GS, LS, RC

 

When was the last time Acura had a high performance sedan in the vein of the M3? And never in Acura's wildest dreams would it EVER commit to make something like the LF-A. Lexus has had a far greater range of engines in their offerings from I4's to V10. How long did it take for Acura to add DI and hybrids to its lineup?

 

Acura got left behind by Lexus long ago and was content to make premium, reliable transportation. Acura's downfall began when it felt like it needed to mature it's lineup and separate its image from Hondas. It lost a lot of brand and identity equity in great nameplates when it decided to go alphanumeric. It then decided to raise its maturity level and further distance itself from Honda by dropping its entry level Civic based offering altogether (RSX).

 

Acura's warmed over civic and accord based strategy worked extremely well during the late 90s and early 2000's. At that point, the Japanese had a reputation for being far more reliable than German or American cars. Anyone buying German bought a BMW for sportiness or a Mercedes for Luxury, so Audi was out in the cold unless someone wanted AWD. Mercedes could give a flip about anything below the E class and BMW was strictly a 3 series company. Acura was cool, edgy, had a sporty look and reputation at a price point that the Germans ignored while the ES was its polar opposite by appealing to old people that wanted a marshmallow ride and noise isolation. The IS didn't have the cult following behind it like the Integra/RSX/Civic did. It also helped being one of the first with a car based luxury SUV (MDX).

 

All of a sudden, the mainstream cars started going up market in features and content while the luxury brands started going down market. Mercedes got serious about the C class, Infiniti upped its game with the G35, Audi finally became a player, the IS went from FWD to aspirational, Cadillac showed signs of life, and all of a sudden everyone playing in the luxury segment had appealing vehicles parked on the turf that Acura had once stood on mostly alone. Not to mention the MDX soon found itself in a very crowded market where everyone had an entrant.

 

Acura thought edgy styling that would create emotion plus applying a band-aid to its very un-luxury like FWD offerings would be all that was need to further the brand while industry experts were telling Acura it needed to drive the right wheels or drive more wheels, it needed something bigger than the V6 it offered in either cylinder count or DIT turbos, and it needed a true flagship spearheading a lineup of cars that could go head to head with the Germans. Ugly styling, "tweener" vehicles that tried to cover two segments in size and price, a lack of engine options, and the loss of brand identity finally allowed Acura's lack of brand cache to catch up with it and get scratched off the lists of all those looking for a true luxury car. SH-AWD ended up being marketing success, but a sales flop and Acura decided it wasn't worth the cost to proliferate through out the entire lineup all while cost cutting it in the vehicles it was added to after the RL. It was completely nixed for the latest RDX and the RLX SH-AWD isn't really SH-AWD (but could end up being superior anyway...until the batteries are depleted).

 

Now Acura sells cars to Honda/Acura fan boys that can't see that Acura has been passed by and bargain premium shoppers.

 

Even as the industry is growing hand over fist back to the days of glory, Acura sits with Cadillac, Jaguar, and Volvo for being the only luxury and premium brands down for the year. It's sad to watch Acura drop nameplates like the domestics used to drop nameplates with negative perceptions. Discounting the change to alphanumeric, Acura has kept 3 names. MDX, RDX, and NSX. They've dropped RSX, SLX, CL, RL, TL, ZDX, and TSX. (could ad EL and CSX if we count Canadian models). You know what Lexus has dropped since day one? the HS and SC. Big difference.

[K2e2vin]

The CR-V was loosely based off the Civic, I can give you that, but it's not directly related to the Civic. The commonality that made Civic/Integra swaps so popular in the 90s is somewhat gone now. I think it was two years ago that Honda stated it was "returning to it's roots".

 

As far as trucks, Honda never really had anything in that market so it's understandable. Remember, Honda started as an engine company and makes a lot of their money from power sports too.

 

Acura NSX? Aren't they working on it's successor right now? Lexus does have a greater range of production engines but nonetheless, Honda is one of the top when it comes to efficiency. They didn't use DI at all until their turbo model, yet they were still getting very good MPG with port-injection(I'm familiar with this because my brother used to have a Civic CX and now a 1st gen Honda Insight).

 

Cool argument, but again, it's just your opinion on why Acura is not a "luxury" brand. True, it may not compete well with other companies right now, but it's none-the-less a very nice car for a lot of people and not only is it a self-proclaimed luxury brand, it's grouped in with other luxury brands when making comparisons. Honestly, it sounds like you're upset that Acura may be butting into the niche market that Subaru had. I say awesome; more competitors means more options and better prices for the consumer(though, IMO, I don't think it'll affect Subaru since the Acuras will most likely be much more expensive; hence attracting Audi, etc. customers).

[RumbleRumble]

I hope we see some Honda's with a AWD option now. Civic SI AWD?

[The B4]

The CR-V was loosely based off the Civic, I can give you that, but it's not directly related to the Civic. The commonality that made Civic/Integra swaps so popular in the 90s is somewhat gone now. I think it was two years ago that Honda stated it was "returning to it's roots".

 

As far as trucks, Honda never really had anything in that market so it's understandable. Remember, Honda started as an engine company and makes a lot of their money from power sports too.

 

Acura NSX? Aren't they working on it's successor right now? Lexus does have a greater range of production engines but nonetheless, Honda is one of the top when it comes to efficiency. They didn't use DI at all until their turbo model, yet they were still getting very good MPG with port-injection(I'm familiar with this because my brother used to have a Civic CX and now a 1st gen Honda Insight).

 

Cool argument, but again, it's just your opinion on why Acura is not a "luxury" brand. True, it may not compete well with other companies right now, but it's none-the-less a very nice car for a lot of people and not only is it a self-proclaimed luxury brand, it's grouped in with other luxury brands when making comparisons. Honestly, it sounds like you're upset that Acura may be butting into the niche market that Subaru had. I say awesome; more competitors means more options and better prices for the consumer(though, IMO, I don't think it'll affect Subaru since the Acuras will most likely be much more expensive; hence attracting Audi, etc. customers).

 

Just like virtually every other compact CUV, the CR-V is still derived from its compact sedan offering. The Impreza platform is what the Forester is based on. The RDX's roots are FWD and that is even more evident now that it uses the CR-V's AWD system.

 

The NSX never was and never will be in the league of the LF-A. Honda's has never made a DI turbo engine. The 2.3l in the RDX was port injection and thirsty.

 

Industry analysts are the first to call Acura a near luxury brand. Bloomberg? Wards? Acura doesn't and can't compete with the big boys. I could give to shits about what Acura does. Almost every Acura is currently available with AWD. If they were going to be a threat to Subaru, they'd already be taking sales. Sadly, Acura is a threat to no one. They are a brand that lost their way. It's not like anything is changing. Acura is still losing market share to real luxury brands... oh and Buick :lol:.

 

I'm sorry to rain on your Acura fan boy parade, but you have rosy colored glasses of what Acura is and isn't. What they are not is a true luxury brand with a special, magical AWD system.

[K2e2vin]

Acura's AWD brand is no threat to you, but you're the one in arms about it. They're aiming to be a luxury brand, and your opinion, along with others differ; that's OK. The fact is that's still the market they're in. The AWD doesn't make them a luxury brand, but rather something else they're bringing to the table for that market(as stated before, Audi has already been doing this, and BMW just started with xDrive not too long ago...you could say Acura is following suite). Honda's sales seem to be fine, so it's not like they can't afford to try different things.

 

You're calling me an Acura fanboy(which I'm not, probably the only thing I ever liked from them was the old TSX, which looked nice...but my opinion on their offerings has always been, "might as well get a Honda"), but it sounds like you're the Subaru fanboy that's upset because somebody may threaten the niche they created with the Foresters and Outbacks(as stated before, I think this is highly unlikely).

 

The fact is you're the one dismissing them and condemning them for even trying something different. Of course they're going to try something different, who wants to see their division sink? Plenty of brands have dug themselves out. Unlike you, I'm optimistic and welcome any competition or innovation. I'm looking past the brand and at the actual product. I'm far from brand-loyal, but reputation is a consideration. As stated before, if Acura brings another option to the table, I'm all for it. Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean my neighbor wouldn't either. The reception here so far has basically been defensive. No, SH-AWD is not better off-road, that's not it's intent. And no, Acura does not have any models that would pull sales away from prospective Subaru buyers. But...I'm thinking Ford might? Fusion 2l turbo AWD basically sounds like where the LGT left off; and a lot of people are eligible for x-plan pricing.

[K2e2vin]

I hope we see some Honda's with a AWD option now. Civic SI AWD?

 

Well, the old Civic "Wagovan" had RT-4WD....so it's improbable, but not completely impossible.