bore

[pleaidestar]

I'm just stating a fact that the normal enthusiasts aren't going to do this, I do think about this stuff too a lot more now that I'm into these vehicles. I also happen to love the 2.2 in both phases and think the same as you do about them. But its not untrue that it isn't the greatest motor subaru has put out for power rather than the toughest and more workable which is why I do the things I do to them.

 

Yeah those eg33 pistons would be a great addition to your Dohc2.2 build it will probably pull a lot harder in the low range.

 

I know kenny isn't poopooing any build rather than just stating facts.

 

Where the hell is op, there is a lot of great info flying throughout this thread now...

[Kennyfvholla]

Great way to shit on everything that I just said, fortunately for alot of us you just have a lot of opinions...ill agree the 2.2 isn't the greatest motor to waste your time on.

 

Simplicity,big valves and short stroke are why I chose the 22e for my autox motor (this time), I like to fix and root for the underdog at times..lol. eventually ill have a bigger motor in there. But autox is a relatively small race Sino don't need big power. Low end torque pulling all the way through is what I want.

 

Typically I have gotten great technical info from you and this is some more great info sprinkled with opinion < which doesn't bother me either. These motors aren't that good either, I agree. But I have always built my cars from my perspective and needs. If I were road racing my car I would definitely not use this motor because it does snuff itself out around 4500 rpm stock..my needs for now are 0-60 with enough torque to pull through the gears and handle itself. Open diffs are another subject and if LSD's were in these cars the 160hp would be a ton more efficient at putting the power in the right place at the right time. In about 6 months when/if I'm done with this motor ill destroy the heads and do a cut away on the ports and you will see how beefy the casts are between the valve openings, granted that you can only take so much from beneath the valve seats without having to have some custom valves made for you. Even that would be a challenge because of the angles and shape of the bowls. But where the guides are I estimate over .125 between the guides and ports on each side, but this is just a guess until I can cut the head in half without the guides.

 

This is amazingly untrue & also one of the main reasons why I am such en EJ22 enthusiast. I know there is far more potential untapped in these engines but because most people flock to the EJ25, these engines are given almost no recognition, even now when they are proven to be a much stronger engine, they still get a lot less respect.

 

Yeah.. Sorry. I didn't exactly mean to come across that way. I was just presenting the facts, even though some of them are opinionated. I'm just not going to agree with building up a smaller Subie motor for the same amount of money (or maybe more, who knows) and not getting as much out of it, you know?

 

I prefer to build motors that work, and I like motors for very specific reasons. I prefer my smaller 3.0L J30 Honda motor over any of the larger ones (J32, J35, J36, J37), I also prefer a 302 Small Block Chevy over anything larger (or a 305 for a budget build) because of the way I can get power out of it (them) compared to a 350, 383, 400, etc... So, as you can see, I actually do prefer the smaller displacement motor over the bigger ones most of the times, but I just can't justify an NA 2.2 build when I can build up a 2.5 for the same cost and have it out perform the 2.2 motor all over the RPM band. But, remember this, I am mostly referring to the heads when I talk about the 22E motor... The lower end is fine if you're happy with 2.2L but I wouldn't use the heads. But, at that point, I'd rather just use a 2.5L short block. But, that's just me.

 

So, I see exactly where you're coming from, and what you want based on your opinions, but I was just expressing mine. Even though I said this and this "should" be used or done, you can do whatever you'd like. What you do is up to you, and I'm not trying to argue that at all..

 

I tend to want to build motors a very specific way, and that may not be the way you like it. I want to get as much out of one, with as little money as possible, and have it be as reliable as possible. More importantly, I want a very specific power band for a particular car and what it will be used for.

 

Really, do you think everyone sits there and figure out how much torque loss you get from a vehicle with 190 HP 160-165.

 

I mentioned it simply because thats exactly what it is; a bit of HP's going by the wayside on spongy suspension. Simply.

 

Dyno runs are fairly different than road runs. On a dyno, there is no up & down movement caused by anything other than the car's TQ, so you get the max power, because there is max grip. I am speaking of absorbing the various shocks/bumps & such so that power isn't lost during those instances.

 

I have no idea what anyone else does. I was just talking numbers that I know.

 

But ah, I was just referring to putting power down on a dyno. Oddly enough though, and DOHC is on the money about it, if you're suspension is too still you can actually cause the car to lose traction (i.e. not put all the power down to the ground) while driving around on the streets and twisty's. This is where LSD's would help a metric ton.

 

Oh, and speaking of putting power down on dyno runs, look at the chassis movement on this EVO

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2AR5zL_voI]Evo Uses Launch Control on Dyno - YouTube[/ame]

 

...oh and that picture is of an eg33 piston on the left and ej22e on the right. Lol. The difference is pretty major in the two, there is no aspect ratio from that pic but that dome looks like a Honda b16 typeR piston.

 

Ahhh I see it now. I was wondering why I though the one on the right looked different than I had remembered. It makes more sense now. The one on the left actually looks a lot like a 251 pistons.

 

I cut about 6 grams of aluminum out of each intake port and 4 grams out of each exhaust port, I could have taken a buttload more out of the exhaust but I want the detonation to stick somewhere. Have you ever ported and polished a set of these heads? Mine are the fourth set of subaru heads I have opened up and so far they arent too shabby..even on the lowly 22e. I did weigh the heads before and after..I am a pretty good machinist/fabricator.

 

I have not worked on them, but have been told by machinists that they aren't worth the time when compared to either 2.5L head. And these are guys that work on Subaru motors.

 

I'm not saying you, personally, can't work the heads.. I don't know anything about what you can do.. So... Yeah...

 

I'm just stating a fact that the normal enthusiasts aren't going to do this, I do think about this stuff too a lot more now that I'm into these vehicles. I also happen to love the 2.2 in both phases and think the same as you do about them. But its not untrue that it isn't the greatest motor subaru has put out for power rather than the toughest and more workable which is why I do the things I do to them.

 

I know kenny isn't poopooing any build rather than just stating facts.

 

Where the hell is op, there is a lot of great info flying throughout this thread now...

 

I could not agree more that the EJ22 motors have been the most reliable of any other motor that Subaru has put in a car from the factory.

 

And I will say this... From the factory, both the EJ22E and EJ25D put down WAY less power than Subaru rated them. I've see 85-90 WHP (EJ22E) and 100-105 (EJ25D) at the wheels stock. Doing the math, you can see how ridiculous it is. The '96 (with a stock '99 25D motor and UEL header with a glass pack muffler) make maybe 150 CHP... It's trap speed through the quarter mile show it.

 

No, I know it may seem like it, but I am not haha. At least I am trying not too. I just get really into things.

 

And yeah, he hasn't been back on since before my first post in this thread.

 

Hey, don't bash the HLA heads. They're STILL one of the best sets for turbocharging & smooth operation. I drove a 96 GT & the engine felt like it wasn't even there until I pressed the pedal. Smooth idle & equally smooth revs. They're not the best for high compression, but as a stock engine, the 1st 25D variant does a damn good job at what it does.

 

I don't believe this to a certain degree. I believe that 97-98 heads on a 96 block would make for a pretty damn good EJ25D.

 

If I'm honest, I am just not a fan of them in any DOHC (I have no problem with the 22E HLA's) engine. They just never seem to hold up. Shim-under-buckets are just more reliable even though they have to be very specifically measure and aren't as smooth as HLA's.

 

Also, I wouldn't say that the HLA's are the only reason that '96 GT was so smooth. My 251 bottom end motors have run much much smoother and quieter. My 96 GT with HLA heads was probably just junk though. It didn't run the smoothest since day one. But, it held up better than my other 25D bottom ends did.. I will give it that!

 

As mentioned before, you want top or bottom end power? And this is interesting, because this is where the DOHC setup really comes into play. You have 2 cams to work with, each dedicated to intake & exhaust. No matter how well the SOHC heads breathe, they will ALWAYS be inferior to any DOHC head for this one reason alone, among too many others I can mention.

 

I do very much beg to differ. I don't think it quite matter whether or not you have an SOHC or a DOHC as to what flow more. No, you can't change the cam timing or phasing, but sometimes it just isn't needed.

 

Take the 251 heads for instance they are SOHC and out-flow the DOHC 25D heads. My Honda's cylinder heads out-flow them with ease, and even out flow LS6 heads as well as Cobra 4-valve heads.

 

You can shape the power band however you'd like, and have it as high up in the RPM bands as you'd like, as long as you have the correct cam profiles and the heads can flow. Just because a head flows a certain amount, or can flow a bit more, doesn't mean that it allows full velocity at larger lifts OR higher RPM's.

 

 

 

BTW, I'm done with the back and forth. It's taking too much time. I shouldn't have to explain my opinions and why I have them. I was just stating them, is all.

[pleaidestar]

That was a crazy dyno run!! Is Be nervous as a cat after dropping that clutch for 0.0010 sec. Lol.

 

I would love to get a whole 251 swap in my fleabag, the 3rd gen runs like a champ in mid to high just feels burly and hefty. The motor surprised me right after I got it, when I replaced the gaskets I was seriously thinking about putting my 22e block in and keeping that 251 block for myself (wifes car) lol, but I did no research because rush job.

 

That's the name of the game these days is to build to what you know and can afford, I don't make a ton of money so I do everything I can to keep up with guys on the track that drop 4k on a motor for a season. Ultimately driving skill helps the most. For Honda's motors, those things come out of the factory breathing well I prefer the Si-b16a motor over the gs-r b18c for breathing and piston profile. That motor made my old eg feel like a go cart and chirped through traction to 3rd gear.

[DOHCEJ22E1]

Kenny! You opinions matter! We're all discussing this with good info to bring to the table!

 

I just can't justify an NA 2.2 build when I can build up a 2.5 for the same cost and have it out perform the 2.2 motor all over the RPM band. But, remember this, I am mostly referring to the heads when I talk about the 22E motor... The lower end is fine if you're happy with 2.2L but I wouldn't use the heads. But, at that point, I'd rather just use a 2.5L short block. But, that's just me.

 

No EJ25 will rev at high rpm as safely or as quickly an EJ22 due to the significant differences in crank stroke, piston size, & rod height/size. I mean, sure, you can't cram as much air into the chambers as you can in the EJ25s but the EJ22 gets the air in, out, & onto the next stroke immediately. In terms of power, the EJ22 will always fall short but in terms of being responsive, the EJ22 will come out on top because of it's shorter stroke. 25D heads will make an EJ22 sing & be an extremely fun & efficient little engine. I never felt like I have needed another 25D after building the hybrids.

 

I want to get as much out of one, with as little money as possible, and have it be as reliable as possible. More importantly, I want a very specific power band for a particular car and what it will be used for.

 

We share the same exact view on this. We just believe in applying them to different engine sizes/types.

 

And I will say this... From the factory, both the EJ22E and EJ25D put down WAY less power than Subaru rated them. I've see 85-90 WHP (EJ22E) and 100-105 (EJ25D) at the wheels stock. Doing the math, you can see how ridiculous it is. The '96 (with a stock '99 25D motor and UEL header with a glass pack muffler) make maybe 150 CHP... It's trap speed through the quarter mile show it.

 

The 96 ECU is running a 99 25D, so you're not going to get it's peak performance with an ECU like that "choking" the engine up. Had it been a 97-99 ECU running that engine, the results would be different. 97-99 ECUs bring the best out of the 96 engines. I've seen 95-100whp from a stock 22E & 115 from a stock 25D but these were both low mileage engines. I'm pretty sure tired engines will produce less power.

 

I do very much beg to differ. I don't think it quite matter whether or not you have an SOHC or a DOHC as to what flow more.

 

You're right. The heads with the larger port design will bring in more air. That's just natural. But the advantage of DOHC over SOHC is as follows:

 

Smoother operation.

Slower deceleration.

Potential independent control of intake & exhaust cams.

Easier sustenance of midrange/top end power.

Less internal stress.

 

Take the 251 heads for instance they are SOHC and out-flow the DOHC 25D heads. My Honda's cylinder heads out-flow them with ease, and even out flow LS6 heads as well as Cobra 4-valve heads.

 

The SOHC may outflow the DOHC heads, but the DOHC heads provide greater potential control/modification over them. You do more with them. SOHC is a straight path to power, no holds barred, but DOHC gives a builder much to think about before the end result.

[subiewag97]

thank you all for the great info. i know i can get a ej25 from the junkyard for 175 so i think thts the route tht am goin to take, am on a very tight budget, so price of things very important, am shot to have my car done in a year or so. my car already has a wxr suspension. and catback exhaust work done. 16'' lgt wheels an redid the interior with leather seats dash and door cards, lgt hood w/ scoop. and rear hatch spoiler. so motor and trans last things on the list.

[subiewag97]

thank you all for the great info. i know i can get a ej25 from the junkyard for 175 so i think thts the route tht am goin to take, am on a very tight budget, so price of things very important, am shot to have my car done in a year or so. my car already has a wxr suspension. and catback exhaust work done. 16'' lgt wheels an redid the interior with leather seats dash and door cards, lgt hood w/ scoop. and rear hatch spoiler. so motor and trans last things on the list.

[pleaidestar]

Good deal man, everybody glad to help. Sounds like your off to a clean start, good luck.