4EAT is dead in my 95' Legacy Outback, replace or do a 5MT swap?

[Kwiatkowski]

So the auto in my 95 Legacy outback has bit the dust, only question is do I replace or swap out for a 5spd? All parts will be gathered from a Pull-a-Part either way. I have done a swap before on an old Z of mine but that was simpler and I already had the car apart for a rebuild. So my main questions are... Since I have the odd 95 legacy Outback what parts will/will not work in it from a donor car/year? Time and money wise will it be worth it? Also what wiring quirks will I run into with the 95? Looked over all the links posted before about swap info but I still have the pre project nerves since this will be the first AWD and the first OBD car I have done extensive work on. Either way, if it's worth it or not to swap can't wait to be back on the road and prepped for a cold and snowy winter.

[pleaidestar]

http://i.imgur.com/i5GVdYj.jpg

[Kwiatkowski]

Love the reply, what I am waiting for is some input on what models specifically I'll be able to pull parts from and importantly what cost can I estimate for the swap, and depending on that it may make more economical sense to just replace the auto with an auto. If it helps I'd say that having a 5spd for me is worth about $200, so if I can do it for less than 200 over the cost of another auto it's a go. Sorry if my words aren't making that much sense, been a long day.

[pleaidestar]

Yea just playing around, but as far as I know any 5mt will work through 2000, I looked into it a little bit for my 95 L and nearly bought the parts from a 98 impreza obs, but I wasn't expecting the added expense when I picked up the motor. Mainly because the autos run a different final drive than a 5speed..I'm not real sure about your final drive seeing that you have an outback.

 

Not real sure you will stay inside $200 though, for me last year I was looking at about $450 with a new clutch. But the 5speed is so much better with gas mileage and power when you need it not at the wrong times.

[lockmedic]

Pretty much any EJ trans will bolt up, and as long as you've got a way to make the axles fit and the ratio with the rear diff is the same, you're golden. MT's of that vintage are either 4.11 or 3.90 final drive, yours should be 4.11, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to using a 3.90 as it'll give you a little better mileage.

 

Rule of thumb: if it's running the same size tires as your OB, it'll be the same ratio. If it's running smaller tires (legacy, Impreza), it'll be a 3.90.

 

95 is kind of an odd year for Outback as it was really just an appearance package over the regular Legacy, no increase in ride height, so no bigger tires. . . which means your "outback" is running the same ratio as a Legacy, pretty much. Later Outbacks should have 4.11 final drive, and you should be fine running one all the way up to 2004 without issue, but if you run a 2000 or newer, you'll have 4 extra bolts on the trans that won't mate up to the engine. Doesn't really matter. . .the 4 your trans originally came with will be fine.

 

I'm not incredibly well versed on what's required as far as the wiring bit goes when swapping from a MT to an AT. . if it were me, I'd probably swap the whole dash and trans harness. . .but I'm a stickler for stuff like that. I gather from reading other threads it's pretty straightforward. Remove TCU, mount clutch pedal and hydraulics where it used to be, wire up clutch starter interlock, shunt a wire on the ECU to ground to tell it to ignore the lack of a TCU. All that's anecdotal. . . you'll want to find an actual swap thread somewhere.

 

I know you'll need (at a minimum):

 

Trans

Flywheel

Clutch

Clutch hydraulics, master & slave cyl, hose, hard line. (or clutch cable. . . don't remember if this has a cable or hydraulic clutch in 95)

Starter

Matching rear diff, if yours doesn't match the donor trans

trans crossmember

driveshaft

shifter assy

shifter boot for console (I have one of these if you need it)

Clutch & brake pedal assy.

 

Can you do it for $200 outright? Probably not unless you get a lot of parts for free or cheap, and don't break anything. Can you do it for $200 over the price of a replacement AT? Probably. If you buy all of that at Pull A Part, you're probably gonna walk out the door about $400-500 lighter unless you just get a really sympathetic teller who cuts you some slack. If you put in a new clutch kit (highly recommended), you'll drop a couple hundred just on that.

 

Might try to find a parts car with a bad motor (plenty of them out there) and MT, bring it home, swap everything, then sell the shell with your dud AT at the crusher and recoup most of your expenses.

[Zues Marine]

In 1995, all of the ATs have a final drive of 4.11, with the matching 4.11 rear diff. That means you can get away without needing a new one when swapping in most GC Impreza/SF Forester MTs.

 

you will need to add a wire to Pin #81 on the ECU, and then ground it- this is the ECUs AT/MT Identifying Pin, 5v is what the ATs use, grounding it to 0v tells it you've an MT

 

You will more likely than not need to drill a hole into the firewall if you are swapping to a hydraulic clutch, this is for the master cylinder's mount.

-this is a nightmare since there is literally no reference point, i had to get extremely creative to make a template and find a strong enough hole saw bit to cut through the metal.

-you will not be able to install a hydraulic clutch pedal assembly without doing this first.

- in 96+, the space is occupied by a removable plug...go figure.

 

 

 

 

Swapping the entire goddamn dash harness for a MT swap is absurd and im willing to call you out on that, ^lockmedic, and say .... no you wouldnt.

 

Remove the TCU, but keep it handy. Keep all of the AT cruise control stuff in there-we can get that working with the MT later.

 

You will need the driveline from a 5MT Legacy Wagon. NOTHING else will fit. Not Impreza, not Legacy 5MT Sedan. Not wrx. Only the Legacy, 5MT, Wagon, will.

 

The ignition, NSS, VSS, and trans harness merge wiring is tricky as **** but i have everything figured out plug and play, working problem free so i can post it up if you follow thru on the swap but im tired of typing right now

[Kwiatkowski]

Ok, so the Pull a Part place has flat rate Pricing http://www.pullapart.com/parts/pricing/ Here's what I am getting cost wise:

5MT:$100

Clutch parts: $100

Driveshaft: $20

Other: $100ish

 

I am going to go to a local shop tomorrow that has a suspicious number of outbacks at it and see what parts availability there might be. Going to hunt all I can for cheap parts and such. My goal is to get all the parts together by the 17th, gather some help, and do the swap as fast as possible. Just can't wait to get it running so that I can start prepping it for winter (hoping for at least 5 feet of show this year) modding and repainting it. And don't worry, I'll post write-ups on any mods I do!

[Kwiatkowski]

Odd, posted a reply but it's not there o.0

[lockmedic]

Swapping the entire goddamn dash harness for a MT swap is absurd and im willing to call you out on that, ^lockmedic, and say .... no you wouldnt.

 

I've done it before. . . not on a first gen OB but yes, I have. . I ain't skeered.

 

 

 

 

I was swapping from a 2.5 to a 3.0. Easiest way to do it was just pull the whole damn harness and swap everything. Took about 40 hours to strip both cars down and move over the entire driveline and wiring harness.

 

Did the same thing on a 95 Miata that I swapped from AT to MT. That was worse. Waaaay worse.

 

Upside is I don't have a frankenharness. If the FSM says probe pin 23 in connector F22 to chase down a problem with my TCU, I know that's where it'll be. Pulling the dash and fenders ain't that big of a deal. . . do the MT one in the junkyard and you'll figure out exactly how it comes apart. Betcha you could have the donor car stripped in a couple of hours, tops.

[Kwiatkowski]

Also, Zues, which driveline parts are you referring to as unique for the 95 wagon? And what makes them so? If it's something simple like drive shaft length then it'll be easy to modify the one I have if I cant find an exact donor.

[lockmedic]

Pretty sure he's referring to the driveshaft.

 

They're not that easy to mod as it's a 2 piece unit with an integral carrier bearing and center joint. The yoke on the front end and the flange on the back are all pretty much the same, it's the length that matters. AT driveshaft will be shorter than a MT one so you'd have to extend it.

[Kwiatkowski]

Length wouldn't be bad at all to adjust, haven't found a 95 to source parts from yet so that's why I ask.

[lockmedic]

It doesn't specifically have to be a 95. . . just as long as it's a MT legacy or Outback wagon. 95-99 is what I'd be looking for.

[pleaidestar]

Yeah, I wouldn't modify the driveshafts at all, the are balanced and the vcd will destroy itself if you don't know what you are doing..those aren't just clamping them up and welding them with a wire feeder I have seen some out of the factory with balancing weights welded to certain parts of them..not saying you don't know this but I don't know you and what your crafts are. Personnally I wouldn't do anything to them and I work and run a pretty good fab/heat treat shop.

[Kwiatkowski]

Thanks for the tip, I'll only consider putting on my fabrication big boy pants if I absolutely have to. That being said I do have the skills and know how to whip up a quality drive shaft if I need to. In the coming months I'll be posting DIY guides for everything that I do and for some things *cough* awesome brush guard/light bar *cough* I'll also put up plans that anyone in a metal shop or fabricator could use to make a copy. For now though all I want is to get it up and running and swapped for as little as possible. Oh, if the community wants I can make a plan/template for a patch to replace our rusted quarter panel sections, and if there is interest I could whip up some quality patches in ABS plastic to be sold in a little diy fix kit.

[johnegg]

the 95 outback ej22, auto trans has a 4.11 final drive ratio.

so does the 96 - 99 outback GT, forester, LSi ej25 manual trans.

 

so if you use the manual trans from one of those you do not have to swap the rear diff.

(the speedo will be off f you use an outback, GT, or forester trans.)

 

the drive shaft part that is a different length is the front section.

the rear section, the long one is the same for all 95 - 99 leagcy cars.

 

assuming the cost of a manual trans is the same as the cost of an auto trans, it is cheaper to just swap in another auto trans.

 

and if you want a manual trans car it is less work to buy one.

 

but if you know your engine and your car and have a lot of confidence in it

and if a manual trans is what you want,

and if you have the time and money,

 

do what you want.

[Kwiatkowski]

Thanks JohneGG for the advice, I'm going to locate possible parts, and come up with some price figures, and then make my decision.

[pleaidestar]

Thanks for the tip, I'll only consider putting on my fabrication big boy pants if I absolutely have to. That being said I do have the skills and know how to whip up a quality drive shaft if I need to. In the coming months I'll be posting DIY guides for everything that I do and for some things *cough* awesome brush guard/light bar *cough* I'll also put up plans that anyone in a metal shop or fabricator could use to make a copy. For now though all I want is to get it up and running and swapped for as little as possible. Oh, if the community wants I can make a plan/template for a patch to replace our rusted quarter panel sections, and if there is interest I could whip up some quality patches in ABS plastic to be sold in a little diy fix kit.

 

Nifty... makes things like that alot easier if you have knowledge and a place to put them to the test..good luck big guy..

[Kwiatkowski]

Nifty... makes things like that alot easier if you have knowledge and a place to put them to the test..good luck big guy..

 

It does make so much easier, and I generally like to share things if I think others will like them, so keep your eyes posted in a month or two for some sweet stuff.

[johnegg]

FYI: i nave never driven a 5 speed subaru, much less swapped one into an auto trans car.

but i have read that the best approach is to buy a donor car.

that way you KNOW you have all the parts needed.

 

once you are done you can maybe sell a few parts or just scrap it.

a 3300 lb car should bring about $350 around here.

maybe more, whole cars pay more than metal junk.

if you sell enough parts before you scrap it you may break even.

[Zues Marine]

I've done it before. . . not on a first gen OB but yes, I have. . I ain't skeered. .

 

 

my b, i wasnt trying to sound like a dick, but for this application it is just more work than its remotely worth to do the whole thing

 

but yes, to confirm, its got to be a 5MT and a Legacy's driveshaft, 95-99

 

honestly aside from trailblazing the wiring harness swap, the hardest part of this whole ordeal is the hole for the hydraulic clutch master to go thru. because since the pedal box mounts up with the 6 bolts under the dash, you need to be within about .01" or the hole will end off-centered and you wont be able to line it all up

[monkeyposeur]

My favorite 5mt swap DIY (for a first gen but relevant): http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/swap/swap.html

[Zues Marine]

thats a great link, also Legacy777 over on ultimate subaru is like the wiring jesus, thatsurrealmirage is his website

[monkeyposeur]

He also singlehandedly keeps bbslegacycentral going (best first gen site out there). Great guy. He's helped me out a ton over the past year.

[Kwiatkowski]

Well, After looking over and pricing out everything what it boiled down to was time. So for now I am just replacing the 4eat with another one. So any tips or hints specific to the legacy would be much appreciated. My plan now will go something like this: put car on stands/ remove wheels/ drain 4eat/ disconnect drive parts/ unhook electrical/ remove lower bolts/ add support/ remove top bolts/ slide 4eat rearward/ drop and remove 4eat/ repeat in reverse order with new one. Does that sound about right? My goal is to be able to pull one form the yard, pull mine, and then put the new one in in record time.