Refrigerant question-should I use propane based refrigerant replacement??

[JmP6889928]

I made contact with MACS (Mobile Air Conditioning Society) who is the sanctioning body for certification of repair facilities in states that require a certification in order to do A/C work. We've had a rather lengthy discussion in a couple of threads regarding the use of propane based materials in A/C systems and here is the response to my question as to whether or not it's recommended and/or safe to use a propane based refrigerant replacement. The answers are penned by the president of MACS, Elvis Hoffpauir and the manager of service training Paul DeGuiseppi.

 

 

From: Marion <marion@macsw.org>

Date: August 27, 2013, 3:24:56 PM EDT

To: 'John Peirce' <jpeirce@agscompany.com>

Cc: <elvis@macsw.org>, <paul@macsw.org>

Subject: RE: Enviro-Safe Refrigerant

Hi John:

Here are two replies from our president, Elvis Hoffpauir and Paul DeGuiseppi our manager of service training:

John,

See this link for recent EPA warning about propane and other unapproved refrigerants: http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/bd4379a92ceceeac8525735900400c27/61416ea839b0618e85257b9b0065aec0!OpenDocument

While this release deals specifically with home air conditioning systems, note the statement in the fifth paragraph of the release: “At this time, EPA has not approved the use of propane refrigerant or other hydrocarbon refrigerants in any type of air conditioner.”

Dating back to the industry’s transition from R-12 to R-134a, MACS has taken a leading role in warning the industry against using these unapproved and dangerous substitutes.

The MACS Section 609 Certification Manual contains these warnings:

Caution: If the refrigerant contains flammable sub*stances, such as propane and butane, a fire or explosion could occur if the refrigerant is exposed to an ignition source within the equipment. Recovery equipment that has been certified for use with CFC-12 or HFC-134a is not approved for use with a flammable refrigerant and may become a safety hazard if used. Make sure you determine if features have been incorporated into your equipment to guard against these hazards.

WARNING

If your refrigerant identifier shows an indication of “HC” or “hydrocarbon,” take extra caution.

These gases, (propane, butane, or others) are high*ly flammable and explosive. Take extreme care to contain these chemicals properly and recover them without leakage.

In spite of our best efforts, some hobbyists and DIYers cannot be convinced of the potential danger.

I remember a few years back when a hobbyist’s antique vehicle burst into flames when a spark ignited the propane he had installed in his vehicle A/C. A refrigerant line had been rubbed through, venting the refrigerant.

After putting out the fire with the help of his buddies, the hobbyist confirmed that he had used a hydrocarbon refrigerant, defended it as the best thing since sliced bread, and said he would use it again in a heartbeat.

Go figure.

Regards,

Elvis

Envirosafe is a flammable blend of hydrocarbons.

It is illegal to install it as a replacement for R12 in all 50 states; it is illegal to install it as a replacement for any mobile A/C system refrigerant in 19 states, plus Washington DC. It is legal to sell and posses it anywhere in the country; just illegal to install it as a mobile A/C system refrigerant as noted above.

It is essentially the same composition as Duracool, RedTek, MaxiFrig, etc., etc., etc. (all Canadian companies, where most provinces currently have no ban on its usage as a mobile A/C system refrigerant.

It is not approved for use by any vehicle, system or component manufacturer, and virtually all vehicle, system and component manufacturers, as well as virtually all tool and equipment manufacturers, will not honor any warranty claims on any system, component or equipment that it has passed through.

It cannot be recycled for re-installation in the shop.

 

Paul

Marion J. Posen

VP Sales and Marketing

MACS Worldwide

225 S. Broad Street

Lansdale, PA 19446

215/631-7020 x 304

215/631-7017 FAX

twitter.com/MACS_Worldwide

 

If you choose to go ahead and use one of these refrigerant replacements, I would very closely look at the label and then consider what your state's regulations are. One thing I can guarantee is that if you do put this in your system and then for some reason have to go to a service facility where they need to recover your system, the facility is NOT going to be happy if they pull that crap into their machine. It will contaminate any refrigerant that is currently in their machine and can do damage to some of the equipment.

 

 

As I said before, to put a gas that I use in my PROPANE TORCH in your A/C system as a refrigerant is just plain not terribly intelligent. Irregardless of what the can says on it, the information above clearly states what is and is not approved to be used as refrigerants and anything with hydrocarbons (read-FLAMMABLE) is not to be placed inside of a closed system where pressure and heat are applied.

 

 

 

As before, do what you wish with your own car, but these people are the cutting edge of mobile air conditioning systems and have absolutely the latest information regarding the entire industry.

 

 

Good luck.

[JmP6889928]

Posted on NASIOC by Aerosabber in regards to this same information:

 

The tanks I use to play paintball have up to 4500psi in them. People have been known to put a drop of oil into the tank to stop a slight leak at the fill point. When paintball tanks used pure nitrogen that wasn't an issue BUT now it's just compressed air which is about 20% oxygen. So 4500psi + a bit of flammable oil + just the right conditions leads to the tank exploding.

here's a box of tanks that were purposely overfilled to see what they could handle before bursting (testing requirement done by the manufacturer) I seem to recall the pressure being something like 20,000psi.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Tabris172015/blownbottles005.jpg

 

Here's the aftermath of a tank w/ a bit of oil in it, looks like the regulator/threads for the regulator failed first hence the different look.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Tabris172015/757_46bc1315f01fc.jpg

 

burned hand, jersey pics in link form.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...5/DSC00133.jpg

 

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...72015/oil3.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...2015/oil2g.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...5/DSC00135.jpg

The player was knocked unconscious, had a broken and badly burned hand and obviously won't be putting oil in his tank (he may have never put it in, someone else might have done it to "help him out")

 

You have to be VERY careful when you are talking about pressure and flammable stuff.

[frank_ster]

^ well the 4500 psi and compressed air tanks with oil everyone knows it will explode.

As its the diesel principal you compress diesel oil or any oil it a given pressure and it will ignite in an oxygen environment. So it has nothing to do with propane in ac systems.

 

But as you said in other threads that propane is not being sold as 134a replacement but I feel it is being sold as a replacement. As I have provided photos of cans from auto parts store.

 

As far as car bursting into flames sure that entirely possible if a line is rubbed through. But the possibility of it rubbing through and then in the time frame of it leaking out it need to be ignited. And this is no different than a fuel line or power steeing line and even turbo oil line.

 

And the limited amount of propane to actually charge the system is the amout of 1-2 oz witch is nothing. Compared to 1 quart of power steering fluid and 12 quarts of ATF an 15 gallons of gasoline.

 

The letter you shown I feel is from a source that is partial to selling thier product.

Get a letter from some one who is not in the Busness of selling refrigerant. It's like going to a ford sales man and asking him if he thinks you should buy his ford.

 

Not that I'm saying your wrong and I'm right. But I think to an outside party they need to hear both sides. And I want to hear things that make sence to me. I am a very rational person and the fact that I could be paying 14$ a can for propane or 14$ for 20 lbs of propane that is the same. I rather not give some one else money for the same thing as most people feel.

[JmP6889928]

^ well the 4500 psi and compressed air tanks with oil everyone knows it will explode.

As its the diesel principal you compress diesel oil or any oil it a given pressure and it will ignite in an oxygen environment. So it has nothing to do with propane in ac systems.

 

But as you said in other threads that propane is not being sold as 134a replacement but I feel it is being sold as a replacement. As I have provided photos of cans from auto parts store.

 

As far as car bursting into flames sure that entirely possible if a line is rubbed through. But the possibility of it rubbing through and then in the time frame of it leaking out it need to be ignited. And this is no different than a fuel line or power steeing line and even turbo oil line.

 

And the limited amount of propane to actually charge the system is the amout of 1-2 oz witch is nothing. Compared to 1 quart of power steering fluid and 12 quarts of ATF an 15 gallons of gasoline.

 

The letter you shown I feel is from a source that is partial to selling thier product.

Get a letter from some one who is not in the Busness of selling refrigerant. It's like going to a ford sales man and asking him if he thinks you should buy his ford.

 

Not that I'm saying your wrong and I'm right. But I think to an outside party they need to hear both sides. And I want to hear things that make sence to me. I am a very rational person and the fact that I could be paying 14$ a can for propane or 14$ for 20 lbs of propane that is the same. I rather not give some one else money for the same thing as most people feel.

 

MACS is not a manufacturer nor do they have any product to sell. They are a society that all automotive A/C hard parts, recharge equipment, and A/C chemical manufacturers belong to. MACS does their own research and information gathering based on independent tests of various tools, parts, equipment, and chemicals and they post their information in a completely unbiased forum available for the public to read. While this sometimes does not make particular manufacturers happy, they simply report the facts and they find them out.

 

The letters above are unbiased and my inquiry was simply "I've found this product (Enviro-safe) and wanted your opinion as to whether it would be good to put into my A/C system in my own car" and that's exactly where I left it. The responses are cut and pasted from the email I received later in the same day after my inquiry.

 

As I said, do what you want and doubt if you must. Their information comes directly from OE manufacturers and aftermarket sources. If Enviro-Safe were truly what you think of them, then they would be a member of MACS and they are not.

 

Do as you wish.

[frank_ster]

so macs is like UL

[JmP6889928]

Exactly. They have no axe to grind with anyone. They report exactly what they find and they also obtain information from all of the OE manufacturers and aftermarket parts suppliers regarding warranties and compatibility of materials working together.

 

They've proven quite a number of different products that do not meet NHTSA specs for safety, even some of them from their members.

 

No bias against or favoritism for anyone, simply facts.

[frank_ster]

ok so its legal in canada where i live so i'm good !

[frank_ster]

I went and looked at a few auto parts stores and i cant even buy real 134a .. one had it in 20 lb bottles but i need a licence to buy.

[JmP6889928]

LordCo doesn't have 12 oz. cans of R134 available? Or Canadian Tire?

[GTTuner]

As an certified A/C technician I would advise against it.

 

However the automakers are slowly changing to a new, "enviormentally friendly" refrigerant called R1234yf ( I thought 134A was suppose to be friendly when they introduced it!). IT IS EXTREMELY FLAMABLE and Mercedes refuses to use it. They are suing the French government because they cannot sell new cars in France unless they use the r1234yf.

[frank_ster]

^ the r 1234yf is very similar to propane.. seems they changed it just enough so they could patent it.

[frank_ster]

LordCo doesn't have 12 oz. cans of R134 available? Or Canadian Tire?

 

the canadian tires around montreal sell envrosafe.

[JmP6889928]

I would be a Uni-Select (Parts Plus) store will have actual R-134a available in 12 oz. cans.

[ehsnils]

As far as car bursting into flames sure that entirely possible if a line is rubbed through. But the possibility of it rubbing through and then in the time frame of it leaking out it need to be ignited. And this is no different than a fuel line or power steeing line and even turbo oil line.

 

And the limited amount of propane to actually charge the system is the amout of 1-2 oz witch is nothing. Compared to 1 quart of power steering fluid and 12 quarts of ATF an 15 gallons of gasoline.

 

The letter you shown I feel is from a source that is partial to selling thier product.

Get a letter from some one who is not in the Busness of selling refrigerant. It's like going to a ford sales man and asking him if he thinks you should buy his ford.

 

Not that I'm saying your wrong and I'm right. But I think to an outside party they need to hear both sides. And I want to hear things that make sence to me. I am a very rational person and the fact that I could be paying 14$ a can for propane or 14$ for 20 lbs of propane that is the same. I rather not give some one else money for the same thing as most people feel.

 

Propane is more flammable than the oil in the engine, but a rubbed through hose is usually a small leak and it will dissipate quickly to a non-flammable concentration. I would worry more if I crashed head on. But remember that washer fluid also is a concern when it comes to flammable liquids, and that some fires in accidents can be related to this.

 

The reason for abandoning the R134 is because it is claimed to cause greenhouse effect.

 

As for oil in air canisters - use silicone oil, it's not flammable.

[DosRenshos]

Propane works pretty well as a refrigerant. I've seen a few industrial applications (many many tons of refrigeration) of it with good results.

 

In a car, the risk i see is if there was an evap leak that produced the right air/fuel ratio in the cabin to accept combustion. Outside the cabin, i just don't see there being enough of it to be an issue.

[frank_ster]

^ yes but i dont see how 2 oz of propane in the system. if the entire contents leaked into the cabin it wouldn't anywhere close to correct airfuel ratio.

[Steve R.]

Sure, propane is a great refrigerant. The thing about car a/c systems is that there are a large number of instances where humans are near it.

 

Short and quick example; New employee at a discount parts store is changing a battery in your car and accidentally shorts the positive terminal of your battery to a metal a/c line. If it has normal refrigerant in it, some sparks and maybe the kid gets some refrigerant in his face. With propane, once the arc from the tool hits the line, it makes a hole in the line and you have an ignition source for your propane. There will be some damage, it certainly should not be like the eclipse from fnf1 though.

[frank_ster]

Exact same could be said for gas line, oil line and even windshield washer line ! And washer fluid does burn ! But you don't see it burn . I had it it happen to me that my hand was on fire from washer fluid I thought it was a simple burn but it was still on fire!

[JmP6889928]

Exact same could be said for gas line, oil line and even windshield washer line ! And washer fluid does burn ! But you don't see it burn . I had it it happen to me that my hand was on fire from washer fluid I thought it was a simple burn but it was still on fire!

 

Fuel, transmission, and oil lines are all steel. Washer HOSE is rubber. A/C lines are aluminum and with one spark can burn through.

 

Use what you want. I never had any false impressions that I was going to change what you think and what you are doing. You have it in your head that YOU are right and everyone else, including MACS is wrong. They even quoted several other brand names that are the same as the Enviro-Safe product you seem to think is the best out there.

 

When something happens, YOU are the one that has to deal, not any of us. I hope and pray that nothing ever does happen to you, but why even take the chance? At least for me and with my wife and son in the car sometimes, it's just not worth it.

[frank_ster]

i don't think envirosafe is the best out there, i just used it as an example. i use propane out of my bbq for my car.

 

before i started using propane out of my bbq i was just using envirosafe or similar witch is propane, not knowing it. i thought it was 134a and its been in my cars for years.

 

the reason i started the last thread was to educate people who would otherwise not know.

there must be thousands of cars in my area that have the same gas in their cars and they don't even know its propane. i can't the the only guy who works on their own cars who bought a can at canadian tire or auto parts and topped off..

 

all i am offerings is a debate we make points the other makes counter points. the readers of this thread can decide for them selves. we are all friends here we look out for each other.

[JmP6889928]

i don't think envirosafe is the best out there, i just used it as an example. i use propane out of my bbq for my car.

 

before i started using propane out of my bbq i was just using envirosafe or similar witch is propane, not knowing it. i thought it was 134a and its been in my cars for years.

 

the reason i started the last thread was to educate people who would otherwise not know.

there must be thousands of cars in my area that have the same gas in their cars and they don't even know its propane. i can't the the only guy who works on their own cars who bought a can at canadian tire or auto parts and topped off..

 

all i am offerings is a debate we make points the other makes counter points. the readers of this thread can decide for them selves. we are all friends here we look out for each other.

 

EXACTLY ! ! That's why I don't want to see you or anyone else on here go boom. Boom is bad.

[GTTuner]

^ the r 1234yf is very similar to propane.. seems they changed it just enough so they could patent it.

 

 

And it's STILL a greenhouse gas.

[ehsnils]

i don't think envirosafe is the best out there, i just used it as an example. i use propane out of my bbq for my car.

 

before i started using propane out of my bbq i was just using envirosafe or similar witch is propane, not knowing it. i thought it was 134a and its been in my cars for years.

 

the reason i started the last thread was to educate people who would otherwise not know.

there must be thousands of cars in my area that have the same gas in their cars and they don't even know its propane. i can't the the only guy who works on their own cars who bought a can at canadian tire or auto parts and topped off..

 

all i am offerings is a debate we make points the other makes counter points. the readers of this thread can decide for them selves. we are all friends here we look out for each other.

 

And for anyone worried about fire, add a fire extinguisher under the hood to go off if you crash. I think that foam would be best alternative, it will fill up the volume pretty well and stick around for a while too. I'm not sure that foam would be good in the cabin, but it would certainly be better than powder which is messy to clean out, and will not be nice to breathe.

[frank_ster]

Went to canadian tire yesturday they are now selling "red tek 12a"

http://www.redtek.com/win_12a_refintro.html

 

hydrocarbon refrigerant making the same calims as envirosafe as colder than 134a and only needs 1/3 the quanty to fill a system.