olympic1

Car A: Stay away.

 

Car B: That car sounds like a lot of the Legacy GTs from this forum lol.

 

Car #3: Rebuilt Cars are not the best choice.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I appreciate the sounding board and collective hive mind here. I welcome feedback on these as we continue to search and ponder our options, expand our search area, and watch for new ones to come available.

First up a couple of two owner limited's both with about 100k for miles:

Car A is stock and all up to date on maintenance with recent clutch, head gasket, timing belt and water pump. The issue is while a two owner with no accident history it has had some paintwork and am told one side doesn't quite match the other and that the current owner bought it that way. Also told front end and hood re-sprayed a year ago for rock chips.

Car B is a two owner that has stock engine/turbo but does have TGV delete, Cobb tune and bypass valve, aftermarket engine/trans/rear mounts, downpipe and cat back, coilovers, whiteline swaybars. Timing belt has been done and it has an upgraded clutch. Told it's been a daily driver and running on the tune the last three years or so.

Both of those cars are priced similarly.

I've also been considering a very nice car with a rebuilt title, but the issue there I've learned is that my insurance company doesn't insure cars with rebuilt titles. Got quotes from a couple that do but they are pretty high (more than double what we'd pay for full coverage on one with a clean title) and that higher rate doesn't include collision or comp on the rebuilt. Knowing it's for my son makes that tough as insurance already isn't cheap and you also add the risk that if he was ever at fault in an accident the car itself wouldn't be covered. I considered whether to move our entire cars over to one of the companies that will cover rebuilt titles to see if more attractive rates than just putting one over there, but those I've contacted were not even close to competitive with what we pay today.

The search continues. Have a great weekend everyone!

The three Subarus I purchased involved:

1999 Outback - Bought on eBay, flew to NYC one-way, drove it home to TN

2001 Impreza RS - Bought from family member in Calgary, flew one-way, drove home to TN

2005 Legacy GT (current) - Seller drove it from Spokane to Seattle for me because he was convinced I would buy it after I drove it. I did.

Yeah, I can relate. I've bought some of my cars that way. Bought my Audi in Southern Cal and drove it back to WA. Bought our 2016 Legacy in Boise and drove it back to WA. With COVID it's a big tougher to range as far but still possible. Shipping is also an option if I feel I can trust it's condition.

I think you were on the right track first, looking for a 1-2 owner car, the less miles the better for all intents and purposes, but lets be straight any performance car is going to have a limited lifespan for "reliability" compared to other models. I think if you really start looking nationwide you will be able to find a decent example, or a very cheap example that would be a good starting point. I wouldn't rule out something needing an engine, only because eventually they will all need one if performance driving is your goal.

Thanks. Yeah it's apparent we will have to be patient for one to come up in our area that checks all the boxes (mileage, ownership, maintenance, condition and price) or expand the search nationwide. The challenge with out of the area cars is the added cost to ship it (or fly out and drive it back) and the wonderment of how nice it actually is. For the right one it's certainly an option.

Thinking out loud...How many miles are too many? Obviously lower miles in general are better. There have been comments that these can go 200,000 miles. I don't know whether we should just stay away from ones at 150k+ miles or still consider them if the car has been maintained and has perhaps been a one or two owner car.

Seen one in person and others remote (pictures) that could use front and/or rear bumpers repaired or replaced. I see some of the inexpensive aftermarket pre-painted bumpers which are pretty reasonable (about $375 for the cheapest ones) but I worry about paint match on car that is 8-10 years old, not to mention fitment.

I'm sure patience is probably the key here waiting for the right one to come up within a days drive or so that checks all the boxes of good maintenance, clean car, reasonable price.

That valve would definitely show up in a compression test. His failed after he bought it. The car I bought with a burnt valve wasn't that bad and it basically was 0 compression.

Ah that makes sense. Yeah seems if you have to pull the head on these it's expensive.

yeah most likely, we think it had a crack in it that would build compression but let oil pass through at higher pressures

 

Yeah by the looks of that I'm surprised it didn't show up on a compression test.

if you can change spark plugs (easy job IMO) you can compression test.

just borrow one from autozone/advanced and you have everything you need

I have a compression gauge, but not sure that a seller (dealer or private) is going to want someone other than a certified mechanic pulling plugs and compression testing their engine.

Yikes. Sounds like a full leakdown test would have been needed to find that. I just spoke with a dealer about what they charge for doing a compression test and was told 3.5 hours @ $154 per hour. That comes to $539 just for a compression test. That seems really high.

Called around and seems Indy shops will do it for about $275-$300 which seems more in line.

I did a compression test that came out perfect. (My car was eating oil at an astronomical rate). 1 month later, one of my valves had a hole in it that I could almost fit a pencil through.

Yikes. Sounds like a full leakdown test would have been needed to find that. I just spoke with a dealer about what they charge for doing a compression test and was told 3.5 hours @ $154 per hour. That comes to $539 just for a compression test. That seems really high.

I didn't see these addressed yet:

 

Cylinder heads are indeed specific to this car because they are dual avcs and have the provision for the oil scavenge pump on the passenger side head. This also means the camshafts are specific to this car, but the slot to drive the pump can be machined into any cam by a shop or a competent DIYer.

 

The short-block is a little less specific, I believe we have a higher compression ratio than the standard ej25 and the oil pan adapter reguires one bolt to be larger and one extra hole, many have used a standard ej25 short block with out issues by simply tapping the necessary hole larger and sealing the extra hole.

 

The transmission is indeed specific to this car it is similar to the 2015+ wrx but not the same, the 5th gen transmission has mounting bosses in the bellhousing to attach the powertrain mounts to, unlike any other Subaru ever made besides the related outback models. There are a handful of successful STI swaps using various methods of eliminating those mounts on the bellhousing.

 

As for the reliability, its hard to say for somethings headgaskets should indeed just be a given on any turbo Subaru, the burned valves is another kinda outlier that is a little to common to be written off as well. The transmission has had synchro issues as well as center diff issues, and with good power has been known to strip some gears, breaks some axles etc. If you understand the limitations, these are great cars with an awesome factory turbo setup, one of the most efficient Subaru ever made. I've had mine since 2013 and it still puts a smile on my face most days!

Great info thanks.

that's a big thing to remember...on an enthusiast board, with people who are modifying their cars(generally), reliability is going to go down and bigger problems are going to crop up "more often". Also, a lot of these cars are hitting higher mileage being 10 years old, and any 10 year old car is going to have its share of issues just in general...just part of the game when not buying new.

Yeah that makes sense. We are trying to find a good example and ideally one with no known issues or at least nothing major. We are being very careful with modified cars since reliability is pretty important as it will be his primary transportation.

i used an independent subaru specific shop for my HGs(full head gaskets/machining, valve job, new valve seals, a couple new lifter buckets and one new rocker),--including a new stage 1 clutch(mine was fine, but might as well while you're in there) and machined flywheel, a bunch of new seals(front and rear main, oil pan, and a couple other random seals), PCV, and other general little finnicky maintenancey things, the total came to about $4500. if i skipped the clutch and didn't go so hard on the heads and just had them skimmed it would have been closer to $3750, but i love this car and plan on keeping it forever, so what's another $750 to get the engine back perfect?

Thank you for sharing that information. It helps me get my arms around potential expenses.

OP - if this is a car you are going to hpde with, you'll want to talk to those who have done that. Gteaser vomes to mind, I'm sure they are others

Hi boxkita. No this one is just a daily for him. Now, he may eventually want to take it to an HPDE event to better see what it can do, but this isn't primarily for that purpose. I'm still exploring other options there.

Headgaskets luckily was still under powertrain warranty so I don’t have that cost. The short block replacement was around $6k at the dealer which included sending the heads out for cleaning and a loaner car for a few weeks. SOA kicked in $2k towards that (so $4k my cost) and I believe it includes a 3/36 warranty on the SB. They indicated had I kept driving it and contaminated the heads and turbo it could have been around a $12k repair.

Thanks for that info.

I would try to stick with a one-owner car, or 2 previous owners at the maximum. Make sure they didn't keep the car for a few months and then try to dump it. Do you know what dealer the head gaskets were changed at (according to the history)?

Yeah been trying to find a one owner or two owner situation. The one that had head gasket issues (twice) had them done at independent shops and not a dealer. Sounds like the first time around things didn't go right and a few months later done at a separate shop. I also found out it has accident history on the record.

Keeping my eyes open for my son and he's looking too. He's willing to wait for the right car at the right price. Luckily he's not in a rush. Many are in need of maintenance such as the timing belt which adds another $800 for that and closer to $1200 if you do the water pump at the same time.

Love the car, second owner, 106k miles now and I’ve had it since 11k miles. Headgasket went at 59k, spun a bearing at ~91k. Budget for those repairs and then you’ll be happy if you don't need them. I’m in for the long haul as there isn’t much out there comparable.

Can you give me an idea of what each of those cost you for repair? I want to make sure I'm understanding the potential outlay for these repairs. Thanks

On a used performance-oriented turbocharged car, I would consider the compression check mandatory before I would consider purchasing.

 

One thing to consider is that it does have an EJ25 engine in it - while most of them do just fine, there have been instances of spun bearings

Okay if I get serious about one and it passes all the other checks then I can progress to the compression check.

Interesting on the spun bearings. I wasn't aware of that.

er, oops, tb is 120k.

 

hg fail from poor maintenance.

Yeah I've been checking for timing belt being done at 105k. I found a clean looking one but it has had some head gasket issues (replaced twice). Makes me a bit suspicious of it's history (4 owners).

In a non modded GT that has been cared for with proper oil and coolant changes, head gaskets are unlikely to be an issue. Usually GT's with head gaskets issues are tuned (boost over 20 PSI can lift the heads), not cared for (coolant/oil eats away at the gasket) or have been overheated. Look externally at the head/block seam right above the exhaust manifold under the engine. Internal leaks can usually be seen by bubbles in the radiator while its running. You can also usually hear them. Sounds like a gurgling behind the instruments when you first start the car. Knock on wood mine is modded (~18psi boost), has 130k and no HG issues. Previous to me the car was dealer serviced at the recommended intervals.

 

When you drive it, hold the car in third gear for a little and listen for any unusual whine. Most pulls for tuning are done in third gear. Listen for any grinding while shifting which is indicative of synchros going bad. Make sure the gearbox oil is clean, should be yellowish brown, not dark (little dipstick on the right side of the trans below the intercooler). Its a reliable trans if cared for and not abused. It does have some quirks for those of us in cold climates. In the winter it needs 2 or 3 miles to warm up to shift smoothly.

 

Let it idle in neutral with the clutch out, and then slightly depress the clutch pedal. If it makes a bearing noise in either case its likely the release bearing is going.

 

If you can take it to a mechanic or have the ability to do this yourself

 

Pull the turbo inlet off and check the turbo for any shaft play. You would have to do this under the car since on the 5th gen the turbo is mounted under the engine. When you take the inlet off its easy to reach in and try to move the shaft.

 

If your buying a higher mileage car (100k plus) and the clutch has not been replaced, plan to replace it at some point. to test it - Take the car on a highway in 5th or 6th gear above 2500 rpm and mash it to the floor, give the turbo a chance to spool up. (You'll be hauling butt FYI so make sure you do it in a appropriate location) Clutch life really depends on the driver and where its driven (highway vrs city), so its hard to say when it will need to be done, but there is no real way to check it for wear. Doing a clutch on a subaru is fairly easy, maybe a days work. Mine had to be replaced at 110k, it was slipping when I bought the car.

 

Do a compression test - pay particular attention to cylinder 4 (rear drivers side) its the most common one to have issues because of the design of the cooling system - Spec is 142-171 PSI with less than 7 psi difference between cylinders. If there is a compression issue in cylinder 4 its more likely a burnt exhaust valve than a ringland or piston issue. Usually the head itself is ok, just needs a valve job. The heads are unique to this motor.

 

Check the engine subframe and the rear differential carrier/subframe for rust. They can be replaced, but its a PITA

 

Make sure the timing belt and idlers were done at 105k miles. If it wasn't, or you dont know - do it. Broken belt means big $$$'s. If you are doing it, replace the water pump while youre in there. Dont cheap out here - no chinesium idlers and tensioner.

 

Pull one of the coils off and see if the boot has oil on it. If it does it'll need valve cover gaskets done. While you have it out check the coil heatsink for rust/swelling. If they are rusty and swelling, the coils will need to be replaced sometime real soon. It's a fairly common issue. The NGK coils are about $75 each on rock auto.

 

Check the condition of the oil/coolant lines on the front of the turbo. Right under the crank pulley and front motor mount. If they are corroded or seeping replace them asap. If one lets go the turbo will be smoked. The road salt eats them away. They are about $60 each

 

If I think of anything else I'll add it

Wow, now that is an awesome writeup! Thank you so much for this detailed response. This gives me great information on what to look for and to make sure any PPI also checks these items.

Thoughts on a compression test with the PPI or is that overkill if everything else looks good? I assume it's probably cheap insurance to do it...guess I'm answering my own question. Thanks again!

the turbo engines all have a required hg change at 120k. Some need it sooner, usually as a result of poor maintenance or abuse. Anything with a turbo replacement and original oil cooler is a rebuild waiting to happen

I don't see it on the scheduled maintenance so I'm assuming you are saying that most head gaskets on the turbo engines go around 120k and to just plan for it. Of course most for sale at this age seem to fall into that mileage range. I've been looking for the timing belt to have been done on time but will add head gaskets to inquire about.

Found one for sale that dealt with the head gasket issue at 130k miles so that doesn't sound too far off your 120k mark. I've seen examples of others at 150k that haven't had the head gasket go yet.

I would take the 5th gen over a fourth gen in a heartbeat. You need to look at the carfax and have a mechanic look over whichever car you end up finding. Make sure to also ask for any records they might have on paper(s). One of the biggest things that tends to happen on Subaru's engines is the headgaskets can go bad. You also need to keep an eye out for oil burning (due to valve cover gaskets and other gaskets going bad). These cars are like tanks in the snow, and I know this because we had our '13 Legacy for 7 years here in Massachusetts. Since you want a GT I wouldn't worry about the Manual Transmission inside of them, they are considered really good. The CVTs on Subarus are what you want to avoid when it comes to long term reliability. As far as rust, if you see any on a car then it typically is much worse underneath (the parts that you can't see). The only place I have ever seen rust on these cars is on the rear fenders in the corners, but it is almost always a bubble that is starting to rust.

Thank you for your thoughts. Yes I would have a PPI done. I didn't realize that the EJ25 turbo engines had as much trouble with the head gaskets.

Long post. TDLR:

- In search of a clean 2010-2012 GT

- What to look for?

- Considerations before purchasing 2010-2012 GT

My son is looking for a car and he’s gravitated to the 5th gen Legacy GT. We are in a northern climate and get about 40 inches of snow on average through the winter. Insurance is very reasonable on the GT (much less than a WRX) and many WRX have been modded or run hard. Not to mention WRX and STI prices are high.

Looked at the 4th gen but right now prefers the 5th gen.

While he may eventually want to use it for a HPDE or lapping day (I am exploring alternatives for us for occasional tracking), this would be more of a daily driver car for him.

There are a few GTs out there. Looked at one yesterday but it was a little rougher than he was looking for cosmetically (a 20 footer - headliner starting to come free front and back, rear bumper spider cracking, scrapes on all four corners, few dings, oxidized hood, top and trim, thoroughly rock chipped front bumper, lower sides and just in front of rear wheels). It was good though for comparison as we begin the search.

I welcome thoughts on anything specific to these cars to look for. There are high mileage examples (150k+) but on the original block/heads - that seems like a lot from what I’ve read but welcome opinions on that. Seen a couple where blocks have been replaced which might be good. Couple of examples with some rust starting to bubble. We realize it’s a used car so have to decide what one can live with knowing too that future resale must be considered.

My concern is if the drivetrain at some point has a major issue (engine or trans) how much of a unicorn are they? I’ve read heads are specific to these and so finding a new head I’m guessing would be problematic. I’ve read something unique about the blocks too. Are there other blocks that are replacement candidates if needed? Are the transmissions shared from some other year WRX or are they unique to the GT as well?

So if you know of someone selling a good example let me know Also please share any “gotcha’s” that should be considered.

Thanks!

have no idea. Gteaser has always been my goto for post 4th gen questions

I'll shoot Gteaser a PM. thanks!

these bilsteins just came up for sale in Seattle: https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/wa-jdm-bilstein-gt-struts-w-pinks-283228.html?t=283228

I see they are Gen 5. Any idea if they fit gen 6?