Point37

12 hours ago, Falcor said:

What is weird is this started happening a couple days after the Subaru dealer worked on it in December. There were also a couple loose bolts I found a couple weeks ago when I tore it down to fix a leak. Going to take Humble's advise and look and see if something is up with the wiring or plugs. 

did the dealer do any recalls?...should say on your paperwork...are you having issues with starting or does it idle really low and inconsistently?...basically is it not running right?...mine is doing these things so i know i have a problem with my cat being clogged due to the oil consumption...if you don't have similar issues an electrical issue may be more likely

if mine throws a code before state inspection time i will be putting a spacer on the downstream o2 sensor just to get by the inspection...won't do anything to fix the issue but it will take care of the code and light

https://jcarpart.com/search?options[unavailable_products]=show&options[prefix]=last&q=o2+spacer

20 hours ago, Falcor said:

So far I have replaced both O2 sensors and the fuel cap. I am driving out of town and back all this week, and the code has popped up on the way out and back each day (morning and evening). I stop and clear the code with the AP, then it doesn't come back on that drive. It's about a 40 min drive each way.

Last week I drove it 2 1/2hrs and had no issues, then did about 20 min after getting gas. That made me think (hope) it was the fuel cap.

I'll look over the wiring if I get a chance tonight.

i had the same code...as you did i swapped out the downstream o2 sensor (bought me a year)...p0420 came back early 2023 so i swapped out the upstream o2 sensor (no effect)...swapped out the cat with an aftermarket cat in jan 2023 which got me until nov 2023 and the code came back...this time i ran a bottle of cat cleaner (link below) with a full tank of fuel through it and the code went away and hasn't come back yet but i assume it will...my car has 230k miles and is consuming oil at a rate of ~600mi/qt which is why the cat is getting clogged...i will probably run a bottle of cleaner through it quarterly to keep it running better...not trying to put an engine in it or tear it down...car isn't worth much so i'll get a new one when it dies

https://a.co/d/i3LAIbH

6 minutes ago, silverton said:

Yeah it's definitely too late to stop whats happening without a rebuild/replacement.  If you're just trying to run it til it dies I'd just keep changing the oil with 5w30 or even a 5w40 at whatever interval you want to.  Honestly with your rate of consumption you're basically doing a rolling oil change.  Replace the oil filter every 6-12 months and make sure the oil is full, good to go!

i've been running 10w-30 and 10w-40 at this point...bought some liquid moly...i'm going to do an engine flush before my next oil change as well...may not do much at this point but i doubt it will hurt

12 minutes ago, silverton said:

every 0 weight oil is going to be synthetic.  you can find full and partial synthetic 5w30.  It doesn't matter any more though, that was an issue like 20 years ago when synthetic oils were new.

you should read that as "0w20 oil is optimal for fuel efficiency so the EPA gets off our back"

 

7500 is the normal service table; but I bet you don't fall under normal service. You need to follow the severe service table (OCI 3750) if any one of the following applies:

I live in Seattle, so I frequently check mark the first, second, and fourth severe condition. In a few years we're all gonna be driving under that third one

thanks...most of my driving is highway miles in new england...i have to check the book again to see if there is a severe service table listed...not that it matters much at this point...not even sure it's worth changing the oil at this point due to how fast it's being consumed...but i am going to continue doing it anyway as i want to bury this car since we just picked up a loaded 2022 telluride for my wife in sept 2021 and it was a 6 year loan so i'm trying to avoid having 2 payments at the same time but that's going to be inevitable cause i'm not sure how much longer this car will go for

16 minutes ago, silverton said:

No, if you read your owners manual you should find 5w30 is an approved weight, you'll notice 1-2mpg less though.  7500 is far too long, so you may have done this to yourself?

I don't know what they recommended on your car when new, but at a dealership in 2020 your car was on a 3750 interval. 15+ were 6000 miles and that's still too long to go on oil, but that's what they do to lower the cost of ownership metric..  you should go 5000 tops, definitely NOT 7500

Using a slightly thicker oil weight wont void your warranty, unless you put some 75w90 in there.... dont do that.

 

Since you do it yourself and you have concern for warranty claim, have your parts guy ring the 0w20 up, but then refund it for the 5w30

no 5w-30 isn't and approved weight for synthetic...the manual says the following...

0w-20 synthetic oil is the required oil for optimum engine performance and protection. Conventional oil may be used if synthetic oil is unavailable.

If 0w-20 synthetic oil is not available, 5w-30 or 5w-40 conventional oil may be used if replenishment is needed but should be changed to 0w-20 synthetic oil at the next oil change

i thought you weren't supposed to switch between conventional and synthetic so i always ran synthetic 0w-20 until the consumption got bad

the recommended oil change interval is 7,500 miles in the maintenance schedule...and i know that a lot of synthetic oils go much farther than that today but i stuck with the schedule for oil changes...i have never taken a sample to send off to blackstone labs to be analyzed though...judging by the class action suit about oil consumption i don't think it was my any of my fault

On 12/9/2023 at 11:33 AM, silverton said:

Well you got a '13 legacy, hindsight is always 20:20.  every FB engine from 11-13 consumed oil, those were the beta engines when the EPA forced subaru to push the engine into production, forester seemed to have gotten the worst of it..  even some of the 14s and 15s.  I know your case is different since you were trying any oil to stop your consumption, but as I said .... getting my oil changed at one shop i thought had consumption issues, started changing it at another shop and boom.. no consumption, only difference was quality of oil.

My recommendation is get that Outback, but from the very beginning run a high quality 5w30 like chevron/mobil1/idemitsu/whatever.. over the 0w20 the dealer has and change the oil every 3000 miles. I think the 6000 mile interval is just asinine.

thanks...i've heard nightmares from some of the quick oil change places so i do it myself...this way i can monitor consumption...i did all my oil changes at 7,500 miles aside from the first one to get any metal shavings inside the engine out...wouldn't using different weight oil void warranty should an issue arise?

3 hours ago, silverton said:

Woof!  You're asking people with 8 year old cars if they have 175k on them yet??  That's 22k miles a year buddy! Maybe some dashers or uberererers are here but those cars are run hard and beat to hell so not a far comparison to someone who just needs a commuter.

I got my 2017 3.6 a little over a year ago and I've put about 12-13k on it.  I live in WA, there were a few road trips, Montana once..or twice?... the peninsula a handful of times... the car got a lot of "extra" miles this year so to say.  I worked at a subaru independent and did two or three oil changes on it during my time there.  Each time I would be .75 to 1 quart low on oil.  Ya know, I just accepted it; I thought it only affected the four cylinder cars but whatever.  I started working at a different shop, different oil, I've changed it twice in my time there.  Both times the oil was right on the full dot with zero change in driving habits or whatnot.  Independent shop had bulk oil trucked in from... Kendall maybe? whofrickinknows..  the new shop I worked at didn't have bulk oil, so both times I had them order Idemitsu for me.  Idemitsu is an OE supplier of oil so it's good shit.

So, if you do end up with another Subaru, and I hope you do!, and you fear its consuming oil... try a different brand before fulling writing it off.

that mileage is about equal to my rate of mileage...got my car in may of 2013...it's now december of 2023 i have 230k (hit that today actually)...that's about 1,811 miles/month...8 years = 96 months which would equate to 173.8k miles...86 miles/commute and i can work from home 2 days a week...i'm sure there are people out there that drive more than i do so it's not really that crazy

i'd like to go with an outback cause it's the best option body style wise for what i need but like i said i def don't want to deal with this issue again...this is only the 4th car i've owned (i'm 43)...87 honda civic, 99 honda civic (totalled), 05 mazda 6 and a 13 subaru legacy...i make my cars last as long as possible...so i am looking for feedback from higher mileage owners of 2015+ outback owners for oil consumption...on my legacy the oil consumption issue started happening long ago and gradually got worse over the years...so if outback owners started having oil consumption issues at a lesser rate with less miles that would indicate to me that it will get worse over time and that is something i'm not looking to repeat it again so the more info i can get the better

hi all...i have a 2013 subaru legacy 2.5 premium with 230k miles and i'm getting close to shopping for a new vehicle...i would like to have more cargo capacity than i currently have with my legacy while maintaining good gas mileage and i don't want a hybrid...i drive approximately 86 miles round trip for my commute...my car is now guzzling oil at a rate of 500-600 miles per quart...i also replaced the catalytic converter with an aftermarket one earlier this year (replaced both o2 sensors prior to that)...currently my rear bumper is very dirty in the vicinity of the exhaust and i started getting the p0420 code again so i ran a bottle of cat cleaner through it and the code kicked off...probably have to start doing that on a regular basis...anyway, i would like to have more cargo space but i am afraid to go with subaru again due to the oil consumption issue i am dealing with currently so i'd like to get some feedback from owners who have newer outbacks with high mileage to see if they are dealing with this issue cause i would rather not have to drive around with a 6-pack of oil in my trunk dumping one in once every other week...below is what i am looking for

anyone with a newer than 2015 outback (6th gen+) with more than 175k or 200k miles dealing with bad oil consumption?

needs:
-reliability
-60/40 folding second row
-pleather/leather or seat covers (because dogs)
-be able to fit in the garage have about 18’ of space would like to have 2’-3’ of that to walk around the front or back
-awd or fwd
-not a cvt transmission if i can avoid it (toyota's planetary style cvt is fine though)
-timing chain, not belt
-would like 30+ mpg
-smaller wheels with more tire
-splash guards
-all weather floor mats and trunk tray
-no lights in bumpers
-aux input
-more cargo space than my legacy (more cargo floor area, not necessarily height, hence the want for a wagon)
-no engine autostop without a button control with memory

wants:
-dual driver memory settings
-dual bluetooth phone connections
-window rain guards
-CarPlay
-2nd row seat back protection (rubberized)
-heated seats
-cooled seats
-backup camera

list at the moment (will edit this post as i gather info):

i left some manufacturers off that i don't consider options either due to cost or reliability but let me know if you think i forgot any...(left out: Land Rover, Volvo, bmw, Mercedes, Audi, Cadillac, dodge, Infiniti, jeep, Lincoln, vw & Mitsubishi)

* = favorites

1 everything else
*-acura tsx sportwagon
*-buick regal tourx
-honda element
*-honda crv ex-l
-mazda 3 hatchback
*-mazda cx-50 premium plus or turbo
*-mazda cx-5 2.5s preferred or carbon
-subaru outback limited [for leather & seat memory]
-toyota venza (2015 discontinued old wagon style)
*-toyota rav 4 xle premium + weather package
-toyota prius v

2 sedans
-buick regal sportback
*-honda accord (no leather or memory seat unless hybrid ex-l)
-honda civic hatch ex-l or sedan touring (2022+)
*-mazda 6 touring (memory seat available on grand touring reserve and up, discontinued for 2022)
*-toyota camry xle (no seat memory)

10 hours ago, bandapear said:

Yes sir , the OEM catalytic converter has precious metal and people actually steal it, I could find in junkyards probably due to that fact people buy it and sell what is inside . After market converters don t have that precious metal and they usually fail within a year or two 

all catalytic converters have the same precious metals in them...that's how they do their job...my aftermarket one failed due to the severe oil consumption i'm dealing with in my car

8 minutes ago, bandapear said:

SOA talked with the dealer and they reduced the quote by half , i think it s a good deal still mulling about it

my aftermarket cat replacement cost $615 total...what is the one they want to install on your car made of, 24k gold?

same year...same issue...i replaced the downstream o2 sensor first...bought me about a year...then the code came back and i replaced the upstream o2 sensor...didn't help...so i replaced the cat with aftermarket...got me from feb of this year to nov of this year and the p0420 came back...i assume it's due to the heavy oil consumption issue i'm dealing with...tough starting and idles low...probably going to put a spacer on the downstream sensor just to get rid of the code and just keep driving till it won't start...won't need inspection until august so i'm good for a little while

this stuff turned the code lights off at the moment but the car is still hard to start...i am assuming after i go through this tank of fuel the lights will come back on...not sure if this is something i should do every few weeks to see if i can clean it a little

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BS1WMRRS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here we go again…assuming the cat is clogged again (already replaced in feb this year with aftermarket)…rear bumper around the exhaust is black…getting hard to start sometimes…I may pick up a spacer for the downstream o2 sensor and keep driving it to see if I can get the lights to go off…it won't fix the clog but if it gets rid of the code that's good…probably going to try an engine flush with this next oil change...dumped a bottle of cat cleaner into a full tank of fuel last night...if that works i'll buy a few more and do it every few weeks...also going to try and clean the injectors at some point...i have 3 options bg44k (2 cans), seafoam (1 can) and marvel mystery oil (a bunch of cans)...it’s really time to start real car shopping…i don’t need a vehicle inspection until august so I have time unless it gets to the point where it won't start cause its so clogged

o2 spacers

https://jcarpart.com/search?options[unavailable_products]=show&options[prefix]=last&q=o2+spacer

On 11/1/2023 at 3:29 PM, m sprank said:

Cars are sooooooo expensive right now.  Like everything but still, wow. 

exactly why i'm going to bury the legacy...i have to do a little more homework on the new outbacks and see if they still consume oil at higher mileages...if so i will knock that off my list...it really is what i want to buy next but i don't want to take the chance of dealing with the same issue in high mileage again...behind that the tourx and the cx-50 would be my next choices...then crv and rav4

well i'm just about at 228k...car is getting a little harder to start on the cold mornings but that may be due to using heavier oil in it to slow consumption...the highest i've gone is 10w-40...trying to dial back to thinner oil for the winter...the hard to start mornings may also have something to do with the aftermarket catalytic converter which was installed earlier this year...my exhaust tip is now black as well as my bumper

in the meantime i have started my car shopping process in case something should happen...leaning towards toyota, honda and mazda...but the outback is what i really want but i also don't want to deal with this oil consumption issue again down the line like i am now...not many wagons available to buy by reliable companies new now so i'm looking at crossovers too...hyundai and kia have come a long way but i don't trust them long term...will have to see how my wife's telluride does over time...i wish weathertech would tell you the surface area of their cargo trays so i could gauge the trunk sizes on these cars better than with volume numbers...i want cargo floor area, not height...i don't want to stack stuff vertically

needs:
-reliability
-60/40 folding second row
-pleather/leather or seat covers (because dogs)
-be able to fit in the garage have about 18’ of space would like to have 2’-3’ of that to walk around the front or back
-awd or fwd
-not a cvt transmission if i can avoid it (toyota's planetary style cvt is fine though)
-timing chain, not belt
-would like 30+ mpg
-smaller wheels with more tire
-splash guards
-all weather floor mats and trunk tray
-no lights in bumpers
-aux input
-more cargo space than my legacy (more cargo floor area, not necessarily height, hence the want for a wagon)

wants:
-dual driver memory settings
-dual bluetooth phone connections
-window rain guards
-CarPlay
-2nd row seat back protection (rubberized)
-heated seats
-cooled seats
-backup camera

list at the moment:

i left some manufacturers off that i don't consider options either due to cost or reliability but let me know if you think i forgot any...(left out: Land Rover, Volvo, bmw, Mercedes, Audi, Cadillac, dodge, Infiniti, jeep, Lincoln, vw & Mitsubishi)

* = favorites

1 sedans
*-mazda 6 touring (memory seat available on grand touring reserve and up, discontinued for 2022)
*-toyota camry xle (no seat memory)
*-honda accord (no leather or memory seat unless hybrid ex-l)
-kia k5
-Hyundai sonata hybrid
*-honda civic hatch ex-l or sedan touring (2022+)
*-buick regal sportback

2 everything else
*-buick regal tourx
*-acura tsx sportwagon
-toyota venza (2015 discontinued old wagon style)
-hyundai Tucson hybrid
-hyundai Santa Fe hybrid
-kia sorento hybrid (3 row)
-kia sportage hybrid (2023+)
*-honda crv ex-l
*-toyota rav 4 xle premium + weather package
-mazda 3 hatchback
-honda element
-toyota prius v
*-mazda cx-50 premium plus or turbo
*-mazda cx-5 2.5s preferred or carbon
-toyota corolla hatch
-toyota corolla cross
-honda hrv
*-Subaru Outback limited [for leather & seat memory] (on the list reluctantly)

3 truck
-toyota stout (coming?)
-toyota tacoma hybrid (coming?)
-hyundai santa cruz (2022 model, untested decent fuel mileage, interested but unsure, i assume this is a santa fe with the rear chopped off, reminds me of the subaru baja)
-ford maverick hybrid (same reasons as the santa cruz above, also not really sure about ford reliability and it's a new model)

222k now...going to let it roll for now...not interested in spending too much on an overpriced new or used car and have a prolonged overlap of payments for 2 cars...got the wife's car in 9/2021...4+ more years of payments left on it...unless i see a really good deal on something used

On 6/6/2023 at 5:31 PM, m sprank said:

Bad ass wagons still exist.  You just have to PAY.

i should have stated that subaru is the only one making a reliable wagon...there def are some nice ones out there but they are too expensive for my needs and not something i would want to own or repair and def not out of the warranty period...i wouldn't consider anything from vw/audi, bmw, volvo, mercedes, porche or other luxury brands...a car is the worst investment but it's a necessity so cost and reliability is at the top of my list

On 6/7/2023 at 2:28 PM, MoleMan said:

OP,

 

Did you ever change the PCV Valve on the car?  Just had this issue on my wife's daily with severe oil consumption issues. Changed out the PCV and it solved the issue.

 

As far as going to a 50 weight oil I would strongly advise against that.  I would go to a 10/40 max.  You could probably even get away with 5/40 M1.

 

As far as your choice in cars you are looking for.

 

Just some advice.  The Camry and the Rav are boring plain cars to drive. Great reliability but boring.   The Mazda 6 is a great car and no complaints.  The CX50 is small so sit and drive it before considering it at all. The CX5 is nice.  Any Honda 4 cylinder are great e gines and can't go wrong. Just remember with any Acura/Honda product the sox cylinders have a belt not a chain so plan on another 800 dollar expense to change it. The dealers will always pull the paperwork and Carfax won't prove the changeout.  

 

Here's another recommendation not on your list. Honda Crosstour EXL V6 4WD. They are rarer like the Venza V6s.  

 

Honestly I daily a 8th gen Civic with 250K. Bought it brand new in 2006.  Only thing major I have needed to do is change out the Alternator and Starter. Besides tires and brakes etc..

 

As far as used prices yes they are high.  But in my area I have seen for example 2019 3.6Rs with under 40k going for 19k at a dealer.  However as we all know Leggys don't sell as well as Outbacks and Outbacks are what sells in my area.

 

But try replacing that PCV and see if the consumption goes away. As I stated it did in my wife's daily.

PCV was changed...did nothing for consumption

too late on the 20w-50...i've been mixing oils in this car for a little while now...i just did an oil change with 10w-40...bought a few quarts of 20w-50 that i have been dumping in as the oil is consumed...and then i found a new 5qt jug of 0w-20 hiding in my garage so i have also been adding that as oil is consumed...then i will probably buy a few bottles of 10w-40 and few of 20w-50 after i finish all the 0w-20 to keep in the trunk for when i need to add oil

i agree about the camry and rav but reliability is at the top of my list...i don't need it to be exciting...i need it to run...my legacy is/was never exciting to drive either...i just don't want to have to fix whatever i buy very often...i had an 05 mazda 6 which ran into 240k so i would not hesitate to buy another if i want to take a side step cargo capacity (which i am trying to increase with a new car)...i think the cx50 is off my list...too expensive for a minor bump in cargo capacity over the cx5...the cx5 is nice but also small in the trunk...probably smaller than my legacy...my thing is i want more cargo floor area, not volume...the cx5 volume is more than my legacy but that is vertically cause the trunk is so shallow...i don't want to stack stuff up in the trunk which is why i would really like a wagon...low to the ground for my older dogs and more cargo floor area...good to know about the honda belt, thanks...i'm also trying to stay away from cvt transmissions in case of replacement costs which is why i'm leaning towards toyota

thanks...i'll add the crosstour to my list...the trunk looks pretty nice...the gas mileage isn't great though and they weren't around for very long

i also had an 87 civic and a 99 civic so i would not hesitate to buy another but they are not going to up my cargo room...those are at the bottom of my list

used car prices are crazy right now which is why i am keeping an eye out and plan to keep driving the legacy...highly doubt i will be able to get into a new outback...wife just got a new 22 telluride sx so i doubt i will be able to stretch the legacy until we are out of the payments to buy a new car for myself

On 6/7/2023 at 4:55 PM, m sprank said:

LOL.  Thread is from 2019.  @Point37 is not the OP.  However, a new PCV was installed during the attempt to troubleshoot/resolve the issue without condemning the engine.  20w50 oil is being used in an attempt to keep the engine lubricated while it eats through the heavier oil.  This is only recommended on engines with "one foot in the grave". 

yea i kind of threadjacked the OP...figured it was better than creating a new thread...based on car prices i may just drive it till it dies

haven't had time to go car shopping...subaru dealers around here have crazy markups...subaru is really the only company making somewhat of a wagon with the outback...been dumping a quart of 20w-50 into it once a week now...up to 220k miles...getting annoying but still easier than having to go car shopping lol...below is the list of cars i am considering...mostly the ones with the * due to better reliability

sedans
*-mazda 6 touring (memory seat available on grand touring reserve and up, discontinued for 2022)
*-toyota camry xle (no seat memory)
*-honda accord (no leather or memory seat unless hybrid ex-l)
-kia k5
-Hyundai sonata hybrid
*-honda civic hatch ex-l or sedan touring (2022+)

everything else
*-buick tourx discontinued
*-acura tsx sportwagon discontinued
-toyota venza (2015 discontinued old wagon style)
-hyundai Tucson hybrid
-hyundai Santa Fe hybrid
-kia sorento hybrid (3 row)
-kia sportage hybrid (2023+)
*-honda crv ex-l
*-toyota rav 4 xle premium + weather package
-mazda 3 hatchback
*-honda element discontinued
*-toyota prius v discontinued
*-mazda cx-50 premium plus or turbo
*-mazda cx-5 2.5s preferred or carbon

7 minutes ago, m sprank said:

If paying a shop and having the job done properly the cost would exceed the value of the car (KBB). 

thanks...this is what i figured...time to move on

18 hours ago, m sprank said:

Heavier weight oil is usually a band aid to get you past a visual inspection when trading in/selling.  Nothing will cure the issue other than a rebuild. 

any idea what a rebuild would cost?...i assume the cost for a rebuild is probably not cost effective at this mileage...so i'm planning on looking for a new car...i am going to put this car up for sale for a little while (when i have time to clean it up and take photos)...i will be listing all it's issues in the ad...if i get no takers i'll trade it in with the purchase of my new car...it will pass inspection but i assume oil consumption will be dictated by usage...i drive mostly highway at 80mph...if someone is only driving around town and not going far or at lower speeds and doesn't mind checking the oil it would probably be fine to run as is for a cheap car...or someone that wants to rebuild it...if i get no takers i'll trade it in with the purchase of a new car...the kbb private party range is $3.6k to $5.6k...not even sure what i should ask for it with this issue...thanks for all your help!

Got to 325 miles instead 250 miles before adding a quart…negligible deference…time for a new car…got a never installed new set of white lines control arms that I can’t return…wonder if I should pull the struts out before trading in or selling…doubt anyone will want to buy it when they read the ad

Oil change done with 10w-40…we’ll see how it goes…first time using my rhino ramps…so much faster than a jack and jack stands…low oil light turned on after I finished the oil change…had to reset it by moving the fuse…

Going to see how it goes with the heavier oil but has anyone ever used Lucas oil stabilizer?…looks like it thickens the oil and is supposed to help with oil consumption 

yea cause they want to resell them...this car will probably go to a scrap yard for parts or an auction...they won't be selling it...i've sold 2 cars, 2 trucks and 5 motorcycles over the years all privately...in MA if they pass inspection, a buyer can't come back with the lemon law and try to return it...this car will pass inspection...but the oil consumption is an issue and i don't hide things when i sell items privately...i would list this issue in the ad...so i won't get much for an outright sale for a car that needs and engine rebuild...i have no problem trading it in and not telling a car dealer about that issue though...i guess i have a few options to unload the car and try to get as much money as i can with as little headache as possible...if you know of any others please let me know...

1 private party mechanic special

2 carmax (or another similar company)

3 recycler (never done this option before so not sure who is good to deal with)

4 car dealer trade in

also thank you and everyone else that has helped me with this along the way...much appreciated

on top of that i think the last carmax offer i got for this car was $800 so it's worth more to me at this point due to how much money i just sunk into it so i'm going to try to keep running it till it pisses me off too much

1 hour ago, m sprank said:

In all honesty it sounds like time for a rebuild.  Your oil consumption is more than excessive.  If you have to run 20w 50 just to slow it down then your kidding yourself about not needing an engine.  We used to tell customers to run 20w50 for the drive to carmax to sell it. 

i don't doubt it but i won't be paying for one for a car with 216k on the clock...it will more likely get traded in before i get it rebuilt