TSiWRX

^ Hey, I thought you didn't want political stuff here!

Ah, gotcha. In that case, yes, there's plenty of people who do. Although I'm not one of them, based solely on the guns I currently own, I can nevertheless testify to the fact that what you see on the various gun Forums such as M4C.net are definitely true. I've seen enough of friends' guns to say that it's not just something that folks have drummed-up for no reason. Perhaps - although what's reported there, as you noted, was different, that it's about the bolt lock-back (IIRC, now that I've had a night to consolidate memory, switching to one of their own different bolt-catches managed to solve most of the problem, right?). It seems that the stupid is in full-force again. I'm sure last night's shooting in TN won't make things take a positive turn, either.

I don't have many GenM3s. I'll likely only buy those from now on - the few GenM3s I have are the 40-rounders, and all my rifles seem to work fine with them - but the vast majority of my stash are black GenM2s. I'm cheap like that. I used to do the down-load two, but a few classes using the full stack of 30 and understanding how to properly insert the mags pushed me out of this habit. That said for my defensive AR, I only load its mags to 28. It's hard for my daughter to successfully seat a full stick of 30 on a closed bolt, and we can't guaranty that it'll always be an open bolt on a emergency reload.

Well, I did give that answer multiple times, including spelling out exactly why, once: I think you just get lost in reading my word-wall, that's all. But again, as I noted before, I really don't know that this - the GenM3's overtravel stop - is the true root-cause of your issues. Why? Because of what you'd posted here: Bolt-forward versus bolt-locked-rear - as well as round-count - should not matter if what's causing you trouble is the overtravel stop: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?205190-BCM-Lower-not-compatible-with-PMAG-Gen3 If the shape of the magwell/lower, as both myself and m sprank proposed, is the problem - in that it interferes with the overtravel stop on the GenM3 PMag - then the way the problem manifests should be that those magazines should fail to reliably lock in REGARDLESS of whether the bolt is forward or locked to the rear, and regardless of round-count. Heck, if the overtravel stop hitting the rear of the magwell is actually the issue, your magazine shouldn't even lock reliably even if you only had the lower, without the upper, in your hand and tried to lock in the magazine. The symptoms you reported aren't necessarily consistent with overtravel-stop interference. Can it truly be the issue you're seeing - or even be a big contributor? Yes, I think so. But I really think that a more detailed (yet still very simple) troubleshooting matrix as I proposed will flush out the real issue. In the end, though, it becomes what C4IGrant noted in the referenced old M4C.net thread (one which Vickers, notably, agreed with) - that if a lower works 100% with an in-spec USGI magazine but doesn't work with an after market mag, then it is NOT the lower at fault. But now that the GenM3 PMag has been adopted by, notably, the USMC this makes for a new wrinkle..... and later.... [quote That’s basically where I’m at. Firm and careful to insert. A lot of that comes down to rifle pattern as I said. It's reading like you're doing the proper push-pull. Don't laugh, this is actually something that many fail to do, and as I've noted before, even very experienced shooters, and even those with military/LE backgrounds (or are active duty). I've seen instructional cadre pull entire shooting lines off just so that they can get everyone on the same page and doing the right technique, and I don't mean for newbie/novice shooters, either. A lot of folks do the "insert and slap" or otherwise too forcefully insert and cause the cartridge stack to bounce off the closed bolt. Do it right, and there's little - if any - chance of that bounce being an issue. I think that with your description, we can completely rule out technique as a potential cause. Understood. And again, it is precisely because of your report of differences between bolt-forward/bolt-locked-to-rear that I'm scratching my head. It's possible that the dimensions of your lower are just ever so slightly biased towards the maximum deviation allowed in the specifications (look at that one member on M4C.net, whose one lower seemed to clear the overtravel stop just fine on one side, but is hard against it on the other, for-instance) and that it is running into tolerance-stacking issues with the GenM3's overtravel stop - and that in-turn is making it so that while you can insert and lock the mag successfully with no pressure on the cartridge-stack, that the increased pressure from a full-stack becomes that proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back. But again, if that's my gun - especially if that's my serious-use gun, I'd want to trace exactly what it is that's the issue. The other reason why I wanted to ask about your technique is because of the propensity for the L5AWM to cough up (or spew) rounds when inserted too harshly on a locked-back bolt. This is - and it's really hard to fight against this line of reasoning - why some shooters simply will not go with the L5AWMs, because of their odds of failing the field-expedient test of the feed-lip. Since you noted that you wanted to try the Lancers (but were hesitant to, due to their added expense for you) I didn't want you to spend the money if all you were going to do was to just get heartache and headaches from it. Now knowing that you do insert properly, I'd say to use your industry contacts to see if they can't send you a few for review, before you decide if you like it or not.

^ That should go in the "Words cannot describe the awesome" thread!

Oh, yuck. For as much as I am a part of various FB Groups, now, I truly hate that interface. Not in that Big-Brother-is-Watching-You kind of way (necessarily ), but rather, that posts just disappear sometimes, with poor archiving, and also with a search engine that's probably no better than having a handful of 3rd graders go nuts on an old-school card-file. I get that people like to have instantaneous, easily-digestible answers...but the lack of depth of knowledge and lack of retention of that knowledge makes me cringe on multiple levels. Weird. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one. Can you change lower/upper pairings and see if it follows the upper or the lower? If it follows the lower, what happens when you insert the magazine into only the problematic lower (i.e. without an upper in-place at all)? I'm wondering if it isn't a bolt-catch or magazine-catch issue. Does the bolt-catch look like it's operating properly? Does the magazine catch? Is the magazine catch protruding into the magwell properly, and as a part of that, what happens once the magazine does latch into place, when you try to rip it out without depressing the magazine release - does the magazine actually come out? I know that this is going to sound dumb, but I just want to be absolutely sure - you're actually *_counting_* the rounds that go in each mag, correct? You're not doing the typical practice of just stacking rounds until you can't anymore, and then stripping out two (or not), followed by depressing the follower and noting how far your knuckles are sinking in, to judge whether you've got the proper load? The reason I ask this is because I'd forgotten that it's all too possible to get 31 into the 30-round Gen M2 PMags. I just wanted to be absolutely sure you're actually on a stack of 30, not accidentally 31. Don't laugh...I stack rounds in front of the TV or computer, and the 31 fumble is something that occasionally happens. Going back to that full-to-30, 30-round M2..... By "inserting carefully," can you describe more what this is about? Do you usually reload with the push-pull, or do you insert-then-slap-the-base-pad? I sadly don't have enough experience with the restricted mags to really take a good shot at what may be going on. Wish I could help you, there, too, but as noted previously, I lack in-depth experience with the HexMag.

^ The Lancer L5AWMs are mostly what I use. It dates back to when I first started with my DDM4V5LW. I think that this particular example I have runs a bit on the tight side of the specs where it comes to the magwell, and full-to-capacity PMags seem to present a bit more drag on it, causing it to sometimes not drop free. So when I started training with this gun, I went with the L5AWMs. I usually load whatever it is that I'll primarily be shooting into the ten L5AWMs I bring out, and I load ten GenM2 PMags with whatever alternate ammo I also bring (for classes, I try to do my homework and bring only ammo I know that's been vetted, but sometimes, I don't have time to do so the weeks before, and so I take ammo of a different make/lot with me, too). This way, I always know what I have. My number 4 L5AWM was accidentally left behind in a class one time, and the instructor sent me a blackmail email, saying that I'll only get #4 back if I came to another class . The thing that I don't like about the L5AWMs is that they don't really consistently pass the field-expedient test for feed lip integrity. A good hard whack on the basepad occasionally sees a round slipping forward - and rarely, the dreaded waterfall . Yet, I know that I'm perfectly good-to-go even with monopod'ing the same mags. If you're used to really inserting that mag, hard, I'd say that adding in the cost differences you face for the L5AWM that you'd might as well just not think about it from now on, as without an overinsertion tab, you can literally get into one of those situations where you cause a stoppage as you slam that magazine home, where the top round(s) slip forward or even pop out from inertia. You know, I can't remember where/when I read about the failure-to-lock-back issue, too, with the Gen3s - it was outside the LWRC community, that's for-sure, as not having one of their rifles (I really should get one), I don't frequent their Forum communities. I'll have to see if I can search that up for my own edification, if nothing else. Thanks for reminding me of that.

^ Yup, the blocked/limited mags just suck, for both handguns and ARs. I always feel doubly sorry for folks behind enemy lines, for just the reason you noted. The Hexmags I've seen all had use-related durability problems. Not just what you reported, but also from dropping. Aaron Cowan and other noted trainers' experiences of the same have only seemed to cement this worry for me. I'm all for diversifying, but that's one reason why I haven't gone with any Hexmags. For 30-round PMags, I use exclusively Gen2s, so I haven't seen any issues with mine. The Gen3's overtravel stop seems to be what causes the issue in most cases, but even then - aside from some non-milspec magwell designs that simply causes interference - it doesn't seem to be very consistent. I'm wondering what exactly made you see the issues you did in the Gen2s, with your issue gun in particular. Were the mags you received new-in-wrapper? Regardless, 28 is definitely the way to go for that "certainty of reload" on bolt-forward (or slide-forward, for those who down-load their double-stacker handgun mags by 1).

OH!!!! I thought you were having a problem!!! But yes: (1) There can be certain specific-gun issues with the Gen3 mags, which was basically the first portion of my troubleshooting matrix. (2) There can be issues with the lower or the magazine catch which may be more or less apparent depending on which magazine (i.e. brand/model) the end-user uses (most likely due to tolerance stacking). This was the second portion of my matrix. (3) There can just be poor technique on the part of the end-user. The "minus two" load of the magazine should not be necessary provided that both the gun and the mags are to-spec. Pat McNamara says that if the gun and the mags are both to-spec and the shooter has problems, then he/she needs to visit something called the "G-Y-M." However, technique can be an issue, too - I've seen intermediate/advanced-level classes with real-world ass-kickers where the instructional cadre will stop the class to insure that everyone is doing the proper push-pull (and press-checking) because idiots either fail to chamber the gun or have the mag drop out after the first shot. Here, you can't say that it's a "definite" problem to lay on the mag - even if it is multiples of the same type mag - until the troubleshooting matrix has been fulfilled. This is probably best illustrated by the Gen3 PMag/BCM "compatibility issue."

And just to be complete: The shooter is using the proper "push-pull" magazine insertion technique, right? They're not Hollywood'ing it by slipping the mag into the magwell, and then giving the base-plate a "slap," right? Reason: this is to insure that it's not simply a technique problem.

^ Questions are necessary for the troubleshooting matrix. New mag? What generation is the problematic PMag. ^ These two, along with the first part of the latter can potentially assign problem to the magazine. Issue with lower? What lower is this (make/model - as there are known lowers for which the Gen3 PMag's overtravel stop will not play well with, along with unique "you just won the lottery" BCM lowers, even), and how far has it been vetted (i.e. it's a new lower that the shooter hasn't shot much before or at all, and thus is of unknown provenance, or is this a well-used lower that's been known to work well, and this is a new issue, etc.)? ^ This will help rule out obvious lower issues - a quality manufacture milspec such as LMT (etc.) lower brings less concerns than if this was....well, let's be drastic here and say that it was a home-brew 80% lower What happens when you swap this lower to a different upper, and vice-versa with the upper that this lower goes with, to another lower? In each case, the "swap-out" should go to a known-working/vetted mate. ^ This - along with the immediate former - gets to whether the issue truly is isolated to the suspected problematic lower [ NOTE: do a complete-upper swap, first, let's not play with the BCG until we need to; right now, we're just trying to see if the issue truly tracks with the lower. ] ^ Again, we want to isolate before we randomly start to swap things around. We want to see where the trouble "follows," and when it does not, so that we can start to hone in on where the real problem is. Aftermarket mag-catch? How does the magazine catch look in this lower versus comparable known-working/vetted lower? Since this has to do with retention of the magazine and does not require significant in-depth troubleshooting, we can give this part a quick once-over. Some aftermarket mag-catches do not play well with some aftermarket lowers, and this may well be the root problem (and no, it doesn't even have to be a shitty component and/or shitty lower, it could be a top-dollar component with a custom 7075-T6 billet lower). See, things are more difficult when you can't just send the entire gun back to the manufacturer like you did when you were an in-service armorer!!!! We actually have to work through the problem!

New mag? That's my first inclination. Is this with just one mag, or with multiple other PMags (of known function)? What generation is the problematic PMag. Issue with lower? What lower is this (make/model - as there are known lowers for which the Gen3 PMag's overtravel stop will not play well with), and how far has it been vetted (i.e. it's a new lower that the shooter hasn't shot much before or at all, and thus is of unknown provenance, or is this a well-used lower that's been known to work well, and this is a new issue, etc.)? What happens when you swap this lower to a different upper, and vice-versa with the upper that this lower goes with, to another lower? In each case, the "swap-out" should go to a known-working/vetted mate. [ NOTE: do a complete-upper swap, first, let's not play with the BCG until we need to; right now, we're just trying to see if the issue truly tracks with the lower. ] Aftermarket mag-catch? How does the magazine catch look in this lower versus comparable known-working/vetted lower?

Somebody probably ruined it for everyone by taking too much?

^ Too hip for me! OK, no, not really - they actually look really good. I'll save up some pennies and give them a try. These Old Navy pairs of crap really are pretty much disposable, and I've blown through too many of them. Not really saving any money..... -------- The only things some of my friends/acquaintances didn't leave service with were vehicles, weapons, ammo, and night-vision.

Ah, but I walk/run the dog in sweats, but with a belt. You *_can_* have a belt, even without belt-loops ----> I use a Bianchi Accumold Duty Belt, buckle it directly over my sweats. It perfectly anchors my onceal-carry handgun, using an OWB version of the same IWB holster that I wear, along with an RCS double spare mag holder. Under a T-shirt (not one of those form-fitting ones that the younger crowd likes to wear, I'm a 40-year-old dad, so I look "right" in a relaxed-fit shirt of appropriate length and size ), no-one has ever said anything to me, including my gun-fearing (for realz guys, you shoulda seen the looks they gave me for supplying the block's kids with waterguns last summer ) neighborhood PTA moms. It hasn't rubbed me raw, yet. But that might be because my tummy is starting to callous over.

:lol: That's me, too. Well, for handgun, that is. Like I said, long-gun stuff is dress-up ninja time! My only training concession for handgun is an undershirt so I don't scrape off skin when repeatedly drawing while sweaty (when I dry-practice at home, I don't bother, as I don't get sweaty). Otherwise, what you see is what you get, since I'm one of those weird people who have repeats of the same exact outfit in the closet. If it's really hot and humid, I'll cheat and put on one of those tech-textile shirts that allow for better heat transfer, but that about does it. I retire my worn-out and old jeans, shirts, and outerwear to a training pile (moths ate my old [and favorite] wool sweater this year, though!!! that thing's been with me in virtually every winter class I've ever taken! ). But yeah, I think I've gotta start going in sweatpants (or just underwear? but no-one wants to see that, including my wife ). I've got a local training partner, my good buddy, actually, who is of the same mindset. We try to play it as real as we can (with concessions so that we don't pass-out from heat-exhaustion or get hypothermia in the winter) when we do handgun classes, so that we're staying close to what's truly "everyday" for us. The embarrassing part is that I honestly need to work single-handed shooting a lot more. I've been really cognizant of the fact that more than likely, real-world means that I will be occupied with one of my hands (or take injury to that dominant hand, if FoF is any indication of how things really will go) doing some kind of admin task (be it pulling on my dog's leash or grabbing my daughter and/or wife to move her/them), so I've done a lot of single-handed manipulations (including how I start off in physical combatives), but my single-handed shooting really kinda sucks, to be honest. Dominant hand ain't so bad out to about the 50 yard line, but the non-dominant hand blows chunks.

The one time I really wanted to bring out the LBV (it's an old split-front BCM/03Design - http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/bcm-03-msf-modular-split-front-chest-harness) was a high-round-count class for which I didn't have a proper dump-pouch for (I was still learning the body-gear setup at the time). I ended up toting a "mag bag" with me when we started stretching distance, and ended up forgetting it at the 100 yard line when we'd walked out to the 200. I then learned that an integrated water bladder with the rig kinda sucked, too. Although bulky, my old Eagle Industries dump (repurposed from my airsoft skirmishing days) works really, really well for my needs in training classes. I can use it as a dump, of-course, but it maintains enough rigidity that I can use it to schlep additional mags out to the line if I needed/wanted to. On range-days (and for class, for that matter), I just carry my loaded mags (ten 30-rounders) along with loose bulk ammo in ammo cans. I'm gonna make my daughter be my ammo monkey and load mags for me. I hear ya. I'm inner-ring suburb, so when things crap out, it's more than likely that I'll be killed (either by the mobs or by the government in response to the mobs or aliens....or the government nuking the zombie outbreak :lol:) before I get to get to any of my fun stuff. For my needs, I'm pretty happy with the Hesco 4400s that I got for $100 a plate a couple of years ago. They're heavy and thick, but they provide me with the threat profile that I need (defeats both the zippy 55 gr. as well as green tips) for local classes where facility liability requires that as a part of PPE. Heavy and thick, but they were cheap! For what I need them for and for how little I must wear them, it was a compromise I was willing to make. Did you get to take plates with you when you came out of the military? I few guys I know locally absconded with theirs.

^ I only wear the cool-guy gear if I need to (i.e. site-mandated PPE). But I'm a geardo at-heart, though, so I tend to go overboard when shopping. For long-gun classes, the belt comes out as, in all honesty, if the long-gun has to come out, I'm probably going to be living out my (very unrealistic) zombie apocalypse fantasies, anyway, so it'll be time to ninja-up. I really don't like LBVs (and have no need for them, really, as a civilian), so I tend to make my second-line belt (I use an inner/outer setup so that I can conceal-carry to class, and then ditch that setup and just pop over the war-belt with all my gear already in-place [in case I hit traffic and arrive really late - I hate having to take time to set up the belt by sliding on/off mag-pouches, etc. when I get to class), the "war belt," the anchor of not only my gun's needs, but also my own admin needs (a water bottle corset, phone holder [since I only have 5 pockets in my jeans, I'm too cheap to buy Crye and be cool like the rest of the cool kids], etc.). For me, long-guns are "play" more than they are work. Certainly, I put in the work to learn but I know that as a regular law-abiding citizen living where I do, it's most unlikely that I'll ever have to bring out either the shotgun or the carbine. It's not that I don't take those classes seriously - I do, because I realize that if I do end up needing the long-gun, I'm going to need every bit of what I've learned. But mostly, I know that I'm going because I like the folks I take the classes with, everyone from instructors to fellow students. It's nice to be among like-minded folks. This means that handguns are really where I "work." As a civilian who is not in the industry, I just don't have the time or opportunity to train or even shoot as much as I'd like. This means that if I devote my resources towards one, the other suffers, and over last season, both my good buddy and I noticed that our handgun skills have suffered, given our focus on carbine work for the year. Certainly we both needed the carbine work, but the truth of the matter is that the return-on-investment is much more likely to be that one of handgun rather than long-gun. We've each made the resolution to concentrate more on the handgun, this time around.

^ Yup - that last paragraph, 100%. Among my core beliefs is that knowledge is power and safety, and as-such, I've tried to demystify the firearm as much as possible for my daughter. There's thus also no allure of the forbidden, either. I think here in the midwest, attitudes about firearms are a little different than on the coasts, too, which also helps. Even in metro-Cleveland and the very much "blue" near-ring suburbs, there's less reactivity to firearms than I've found on either coast. As THE RZA noted, this is really all about responsible parenting - and towards that end, every child is also different. I'm glad that you are allowing your child to take the lead, to show you where she want to go. I wish you many happy and fun times with yours, just as I have had with mine! Oh, and BTW, if the school hasn't done so already, this is also a GREAT time to teach basic first-aid, including severe bleed, if your child is up to it (i.e. won't be scared by those thoughts). In my picture of my daughter a bit ago: http://www.xdtalk.com/attachments/annaaa082017-jpg.400881/ ^ on her hip, affixed to the rear of the RCS Sonny Rig is a Gen7 CAT in an OC-Tactical Cat-Trap ( http://stores.octactical.com/cat-trap-tourniquet-holder/ ) on a Lunar Design SWIFTQ sled. The open design means that the TQ will be vulnerable to both sunlight exposure as well as environmental debris, but it's an acceptable compromise (I replace that one every year for UV, and since she isn't going to be rolling on the ground with it any time soon, debris attacking the VELCRO isn't a big concern - I just put the old one into my practice-only pile) given that this holder gives her the ability to easily and quickly access it, should we need it. With her, my main focus is safety: we start out each range day with a quick medical run-down (where the medical kits are and what to do), and we end each day with a high-five for "Not needing the TQ today!!!!" ^ TRUTH.

^ That and.... Speaking of daughters (congrats on the big 5 that was a beautiful age), for some strange reason, mine keeps wanting a 229, specifically the Legion. She drools after it, and I can't figure out why. She can buy that on her own dime. She's 12, now, so it's gonna take a few years before she can legally buy her own. .... I figured that's who you meant. Took a guess, though - I'm not that familiar with all the personalities. Trigger-tuning for that man is interesting, from what I've read. Took the 25th anniversary to teach my daughter about: http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/175/667/7ad.jpg I'm Chinese, but still, that's close to my heart as my father managed a Chinese/Asian grocery (think 99 Ranch-type) in Atlanta at the time.

Fortitude, now that's a good word.

^ Cool beans. I just like for everything to be accurate, that's all. It's a little anal at times, but, heck, I think everyone deserves to have things explained to them properly. It's the benchtop scientist in me, I'm afraid. In all honesty, it's why I like P&S so much. Sure, it seems a bit intense at times, but it's only because they expect their members to really be able to logically back up what they are saying/writing. It's expected that knowledge and know-how are passed along properly, so that things don't become diluted or outright ridiculous/derpy. I wish I had the money to just send him a Geissele. Hopefully you will pick up that partnership, and be able to give him a good discount. Even if-not, like Penguin noted, the mil/LE discount via places like Brownells or MidwayUSA is pretty solid, and if he's able to wait until those products go on-sale (I think the next one will be Memorial Day or Independence Day), he can really get a pretty sweet deal. I wish DPMS still had those $100 Contract-Overrun G2Ss.

You meant Miculek, right? And m sprank, we've also known each other for years - how many times have I started drama? The problem here is that there was inaccurate advice given, period. Even Penguin came forth to note that there is a basic problem, here. So depending on "perspective," technical accuracy can be dismissed? What is this, fake news? Alternative facts? No, there is technical correctness and technical incorrectness, period. That is factual, and that is what is important. Should we mock the illogical and ignorant anti-gunners for their technically incorrect and outrageous statements when it suits our purposes - our perspective - but then fall to inaccuracies and incorrect information ourselves? None of what I've written is "jargon." It is - and should be - common-knowledge for all shooters. The basic problem here is the differentiation of a single-stage trigger with a two-stage trigger. And this is something that anyone who is shopping for an aftermarket trigger will need to know, before making that purchase, because it affects, intimately, how they will interact with the trigger. As Penguin noted, a two-stage trigger feels nothing like a single-stage trigger. Can the shooter simply smash through the first stage of a two-stage trigger when the BSA template calls for speed with a relaxed accuracy/precision need? Certainly - and the shooter would be smart to do so. But to suggest that a single-stage and two-stage feels similar? That's a statement that either disingenuous or is made out of sheer ignorance. And whether I'm writing an article to be published or I am just helping out a friend, I would want to make absolutely sure that what comes out of my mouth or what I put down on paper/screen is factual and accurate.

^ Er.....you're posting on an open Forum. Anyone can - and should - jump in. I'm not working myself up, at all. I'm just trying to correct some very egregious technical errors. You're the one that's being reactive. And no, it may not serve a purpose to you that you're mixing up terminology, or that, in past posts, when others corrected you on legal issues, you also backpedaled and then lashed-out: (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/official-firearm-thread-v3-256237p64.html to http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/official-firearm-thread-v3-256237p65.html). As someone who is a gun-writer, you should be aiming to get things correct - to be precise in your language. If you cannot even do that for your "recommendations for a friend," how can we trust you as in industry writer? And if someone gives a friend of mine a recommendation which I do not think is correct - or simply lacks accuracy - isn't it upon me as a friend to correct/clarify such statements? ------ ^ And that begs a follow-up question: THE RZA, are you just slapping through that two-stage trigger? And if you are not, then how can a two-stage trigger possibly feel the same to you as a single-stage?

^ I feel like I'm not getting through. It's probably my ESL striking, again. No, it's not about price. And no, it's not about how much he - or anyone else - intends to use the gun. The ACT as well as its direct competitors like the BCM PNT, SOLGW LFT, and Sonics EMT (now the only one of this set that I still haven't had trigger time on) suffer no woes as hard-users, and as a matter of fact are highly thought of both the training-junkies/range-rat as well as duty worlds, garnering praise from virtually every SME I've taken a lesson from as well as from the likes of the P&S Mods. The fundamental difference here is the difference between a single stage versus a two-stage (look at what we talked about on pages 72-73 of this thread very thread, when you were just buying your first aftermarket trigger: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/official-firearm-thread-v3-256237p72.html). The two just aren't equal. Let me try putting it this way: If BDII wanted a single-stage trigger, would you recommend the G2S to him? If he wanted a two-stage trigger, would you recommend the ACT to him? Yes, both are excellent drop-ins and he'll be very happy with either. But there's a fundamental difference. One is single-stage spec'ed at no less than 5.5 lbs., and the other is a two-stage that's 2.5/2.0, total ~4.5 as-spec'ed. To suggest to anyone that it "feels" the same is just disingenuous. Truthfully, or all anyone knows, in BDII's hands, they may well perform the same - just like with you. But there's no way to guaranty that, is there? Indeed, you can rightfully say that with how you shoot, within the parameters of your testing setup, you see the same results - but what if the other person has a strong preference for a single-stage or two-stage trigger (to-wit, isn't one of the main reasons why we pursue an aftermarket trigger an attempt to force the BSA template to be favorable for us?)? I'm not suggesting that your subjective assessments are invalid: they are, after all, your opinion (I may not agree, but hey, they're still your opinion ). Nor am I suggesting that your observations - your noted objective performance - doesn't conform to reality. You printed the shots downrange, and that's proof enough (and remember, we were talking about red-dot sight use, too, back on pages 66 to 69 - http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/official-firearm-thread-v3-256237p66.html ...remember, that's the little one hot-dogging it on the head of the Tac-Strike quarters, so I've gotta be able to keep up - with projected dots [reflex or laser] I can compensate without issue for my astigmatism until about the 165 yard line, where it becomes impossible for me to engage a point target if I were to hold that sight picture for more than about 20 seconds or so, when my eyes get "tired," at which time I either have to pull off for about 30 seconds to a minute, or else further compensate [i.e. cheat and cowitness thorugh a rear peep]; I'll shoot an etched reticle all day at 1x). Rather, I'm suggesting that even though these claims can rightfully be made, that fundamental difference between the two items, that one is a single-stage, and the other a two-stage, needs to be made known, if not outright highlighted.