SeeeeeYa

BAC, you simply don't get it. And, you seem to have some serious agenda I'm not party to... nor wish to be. If I say light you see color, where in truth only all colors are represented. There are no degrees of right nor wrong relative to correcting the too-often tendency of the stock Subaru plastic-endtanked TMIC to fail. Sure, maybe the majority of people buy aftermarket ICs because they are interested in more power... but maybe not. Listening to my own and others' goals and reasoning over these years many also preface their list of plans with the desire to get not only more power, but power without worry of failure FROM the increased power. Whether on this board or the other Subaru oriented websites, new and experienced owners alike express concern about raising boost, knowing all too well that increase can leave them stranded. This mod removed perhaps the biggest obstacle to the upgrade process.

As for all that powa that a big AM TMIC will provide... the truth is, the 05-09 Legacy can use all the help it can get. But 09+ WRXs don't, they come with an improved engine, a bigger turbo, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, and can relatively easily produce the magical numbers us old Leggy owners used to dream about and work so hard to get. I didin't develop this mod for a Legacy GT, I developed it for a 2011 WRX that had its turbo-side endtank half way blown/levered/whatever off after going Stg2... mine. I shared it here because it is applicable here.

Anyone who imagines JB Weld is preferable, or works as well or even better, needs some help with their reasoning equipment. Seriously. There is no comparison. On my 05 LGT the only saving factor was an engine cover that covered the grossness of my IC fixes, JB Weld, clamps, wires, and other failed crap. There is no one on this forum that has made more footprints down this road than I have. My JB Welded and cabled and clamped LGT's TMIC regularly saw 20psi and meth nozzles. The Perrin that replaced it was a solution for some things, and a pain in the ass in other ways... getting it to fit, finally, was one. Getting the engine cover to look and work effectively was another. And it was definitely, unarguably, heavier. Furthermore, in the final analysis, despite all the tuning, meth, injectors, pump, etc. that Perrin ultimately revealed it had a finite ability and became a bottleneck.

This isn't my first trip down this road. There is no argument to be had here. The BulletProof-TMIC Mod completely removes the stock plastic-endtanked TMIC as a source of failure. Any argument about it not being as good as an AM replacement TMIC is moot... who the f cares, it isn't in its job description. Since, for example, my turbo can easily run more boost than my injectors and pump can fuel, a "better" TMIC isn't an issue until I not only CAN, but WANT to spend a couple thousand dollars and a lot of time and effort to get, what?... 20 more whp? Give me a break. The wheel horse power of this platform just the way it sits this morning breaks the tires loose, is a loud socially unacceptable little monster that will get my ass in trouble... and has, btw. Three hundred whp in a car hundreds of pounds lighter than my LGT is enough... for me and a LOT of other people. Clear??

Let me repeat... when I traded my 3.0R Limited I knew what I was after because I have, in fact, been there and done that. My AP was ordered while I was on my first get-away with it, my Cobb DP was ordered the week after I returned, my shifter and bushings were installed even sooner. My AEM CAI went on with Stg1. All before 800 miles on the odo. Logging the car after I went to Stg2 less than 200 miles later both thrilled me with the numbers, than crushed my spirit when I saw my endtank coming apart. The car sat, unmoved, for two weeks, while I contemplated a solution. It was just before Christmas and my wife told me to order the Process West IC. I did a lot of soul searching, and in the end honored my original intentions... I was NOt going to feed the need for a fixed IC with sophistic logic that could only lead to further upgrades and The Slippery Slope once again. I passed on the PW.

Somewhere in that two weeks watching my new WRX sit unmoviing, hood open, all the frustration of years dealing with this IC, all the years of thought, and a determination to end it once and for all, produced my mod. It is, in essence, as was pointed out by someone else, merely a V-band for the TMIC. It is an elegant, attractive, perfect solution to a long standing problem.

Hear me: the BulletProof-TMIC Mod was created for ME and MY goals. I shared it because I am certain many share the same goals.

 

Welcome Back!!!

good to see you here, jeff; have long missed your insight.

the wrx is an auto?

Five speed this time, and I didn't realize how much I missed it. I think all '11s are MT. I've installed a Mode Racing short shift and bushings, with a Cobb Knob on top.

I'm always "here" in a way, keeping up. In most ways my WRX and the LGT are the same. Also, there is a nicer atmosphere here that complements the good data.

It takes longer to heat soak a big TMIC, and moving more than a few mph will bring engine bay temps down to near ambient temperatures. Your argument works both ways, and in most daily drives you are moving more than you are stopped.

 

You are wrong.

 

1) Bar and plate provides more cooling surface area than tube and fin. Tubes and fins have low galley surface area, and low cooling fin density. Bar and plate cores typically have more than double the galley surface area (the wet surface area, even ignoring depth) and the same or greater fin density.

 

2) The increased size of the galleys, and the decrease in flow resistance they provide, decreases pressure drop across the core as well. A decreased pressure drop means your turbo is actually making less boost at the outlet of the compressor AND it isn't working as hard to pump air through a restrictive box. This decrease in outlet pressure and decrease in resistance drops the outlet air temperature significantly. Your turbo is working more efficiently, and the system as a whole is operating at higher efficiency. Lower inlet temperatures mean more dense air, which also means greater difficulty in heating that air.

 

You are overstating the weight of an aftermarket TMIC. Yours, with the clamps, versus my aluminum aftermarket TMIC is really only going to be a pound or two more.

 

A pound or two, two or three inches above the center of gravity is not going to make a difference.

 

Having long hair versus a shaved head would have about the same impact on the center of gravity. Last I checked, Jenson Button had longer hair than Lewis Hamilton.

 

Done both of what? You've stopped the endtanks from blowing off, but you aren't going to outperform a bigger TMIC.

 

This is a good cheap fix, and your execution is top notch, but it is not better than aftermarket alternatives. Cheaper, and good for people looking for less out of their cars, but not better.

Sure it takes longer to heatsoak a big ic, but heatsoak occurs most under exactly the conditions a DD operates. And because it is a big hot thing, it does not cool down nearly as quickly as the stock unit... not even close. So light to light, all things equal, the stocker is better.

And in the case for the DD Stg2, throttle response with the smaller capacity of the stock IC means it has the best possible.

The weight difference between a Perrin TMIC, for example, and the stock TMIC is significant. The aluminum used in the mod weighs only scant ounces (good point though, I'll weigh them ), it changes nothing.

Tests suggest that the STI TMIC, for example, is significantly superior to a "bigger" bar and plate replacement.

My modded IC is as good as this car needs at this level. "This level" is Stg2, which logs IDCs of 102% and airflow at the outer limits of this turbo. No big aftermarket intercooler needed, none wanted.

I'm glad you are enjoying your platform, too.

I've gone way past stage 2 but for the sake of discussion...how is less resistence/freer flow bad?

The better an intercooler the lower the output temperature. The lower the temperature the lower the psi, as cooler air takes up less space than warmer air. Just because a big heavy bar and plate has a, relatively, low pressure loss does NOT mean it is more efficient. A straight pipe would enable the maximum psi output of the turbo to the engine...

The tube and fin design of stock intercoolers is unexcelled, size for size and weight for weight. Personal logging has confirmed my stock TMIC does just fine at high Stg2 levels, which in the WRX is in the 300 whp vicinity. Many many people are and have been happy with these cars at this level for years. Now that I have the TMIC and BPV taken care of, along with clamping all my vacuum/boost lines, I'm enjoying my car with a greater sense of security.

The AVO TMIC was often shown installed with an AVO turbo making 300ish whp. It's expensive. It's heavy. It is not as efficient. And it in the final analysis, despite its or Perrin's claims, becomes a bottleneck for power not much further down the road.... the road I'm not soon going down.

Didn't know the WRX came with an engine cover...

Nope, no engine cover on the WRX. I was disappointed at first, mostly because of the ducting. But when I saw how it worked, and later after I enhanced it, I'm happy with the WRX's nude engine bay. It's functional and easier to keep an eye on. One would have to re-engineer the LGT to make the air duct work right.

As for any alterations on the LGT engine cover, whatever they turn out to be will be very minor. Only the acorn nuts on the ends of the rails will be a factor, if at all. Stock TMIC, stock fitting cover, therefore stock fitting air duct.

The only difference is, it will never, ever, have a separated endtank.

What happened to the 3.0R. I thought you were out of the modding game

The 3.0R Limited was a magnificent car. But, especially after my LGT, boring to me.

I'm back to having fun with almost the same car as my 05 LGT... only better for me. The new WRX, as you know, is just a shortened Legacy platform with a different top... and for 2011, wider stance. It handles better than my LGT did with coilovers. Stage 2 power with no more than an AEM CAI and Cobb and SPT exhaust blows my Stg2 with meth LGT away, by quite a bit. It's the same car as the Legacy I loved, but everywhere I look, though it's the same... it is different in subtle ways, improved and not needing immediate assistance.

My BulletProof TMIC Mod came out of my wanting to keep this car at this level. I could have had a Process West TMIC on it... but it would have just encouraged me to do injectors and pump, at least, for now, etc. This car is a blast just the way it is. With the TMIC removed as a failure element I have reason to believe I can enjoy my car for a good time to come without a known worry. Since my 05 LGT shared the same TMIC I thought it might be of interest here.

Why better than a better flowing core with more thermal mass?

"Thermal mass" is the reason. In daily driving that thermal mass does just that... absorbs a large mass of thermal energy. That heat, largely from the engine, is both larger and lasts longer in the HEAVY aftermarket TMICs.

The single most significant power-related "benefit" of most aftermarket TMICs is the fact they have less internal resistance. That, to me anyway, signals a loss in efficiency as well.

Not to mention raising your center of gravity with a ton of aluminum up high.

I've done both. Read the NASIOC thread.

I posted first here, in this thread:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/intercooler-cracks-do-151413.html

Another thread on NASIOC was deleted so it is no longer available, unfortunately, due to vendor influence and site rules. Hopefully the word will reach those members there that are interested, and they will find this forum. The few NASIOC members who installed this mod and created threads to show results to others had their threads shuffled off to remote corners, but at least they still exist. Be proud of LegacyGT.com.

This still sums the BP Mod up...

This simple mod is the absolute cure for the "plastic" TMIC, that makes it better IMO than the solid aluminum WRX TMIC, and I also argue that it is better than most of the aftermarket alternatives... for a street driven DD Stg2.

...............................

UPDATE!!

BulletProof TMIC Mod Kits now available!

October 20, 2012: BarManBean's Website for ORDERING your Kit: https://sites.google.com/site/bptmickit/

...............................

NOTE:

If you have the tools and skills, and are interested in fabricating your own kit...

The BP Mod files are still available, just send me a PM.

...............................

Picture of Original

I did see this for the iphone...

 

I checked this out and it seems to be the long awaited answer to many prayers. However, though the 'lite' version is free, the program itself costs $50 and the WiFi OBDII adapter is $250. So $300 for the fully functional package.

I couldn't determine if the application did logging, for one thing. Also, the WiFi adapter is "out of stock" although another place said it wasn't actually available yet. It is just a matter of time, however, until it is all available.

Personally, for $300 it would have to have logging capabilities, and the WiFi should be able to connect to a laptop application. Wireless logging, gauges for everything, etc......the stuff of dreams for sure.

 

But try writing a term paper on your iPhone!

Irrevelant.

Anyone who would buy a netbook to write a term paper is uninformed and their term paper will fail anyway. Choose the correct tool for the job.

Ok, so the rear bushing seems to be the key here... has this changed for newer vehicles, versus older ones? (I see unclemat showed a photo of the SpecB having a "filled in" version... I wonder if this is used on all newer vehicles?)

 

SeeeYa: Your particular fix was to "fill in" the spaces within the bushing?

 

Did anyone find an aftermarket method for performing this, other than simply filling it manually, as SeeeYa did? (ie, any bolt-in poly-insert thing?)

Yes, filled in using the same method as for the rear diff bushings (detailed in here somewhere). That is, pieces of plastic pipe cut to fit the space, coated with 3m poly goop and shoved into the bushing which had already been doctored with the 3m goop, then the remainder of the bushing filled and smoothed with that goop until the bushing looked solid. Let cure without moving car for two days. Thereafter, in combination with the other similar measures with the rear diff and the Rallitek transmission insert, NO MORE of the noise everyone knows about.

I understand the reluctance to perform this corrective measure, as anyone who has messed with that nasty stuff knows what an incredible mess is involved. You must do both sides and get it ALL filled and smoothed until it looks solid. There is no tool but your hands and fingers. But eventually they will look normal again. The results are the issue, not dirty hands, they're just part of the job.

Again, anyone who has drag raced, successfully, knows what is going on. What's amazing is, older muscle cars had far better bushings than these to begin with, but even "solid" rubber bushings caused problems, so the solution was usually to eliminate those particular bushings altogether with steel replacements and hard Delrin or poly bushings everywhere else. There can be NO movement when the horsepower gets serious. I have a number of record holder certificates from those times that verify my understanding, fwiw.

I have inspected my 09 3.0R's bushings and unclemat is correct, they're the same. However, I doubt I'll have any problems.

Any word on the exhaust silencer removal thread?

Search for "drone install" and you will find it no problem. But if you aren't successful there, search for the threads that feature, "how I installed a resonator in my exhaust." There is a bunch of those....:lol:

Amazing what I've been finding since I stopped being on an IV to Turbo Powertrains.

When I had my AT 05 Legacy 2.5GT GRP unlimited I think I may have seen another one in four years, but never considered it was because the production numbers were that low. I figured it was living here in BFE, though I do get out of my backyard occasionally. I saw a couple of Limited ones, but ever since I got the first one in Charleston in Sept of 04 it was obvious there weren't many GTs around, of any kind. Now I see why.

When I got the 2009 RRP Legacy 3.0R Limited I figured it might have low production but no matter where I search I can't find numbers. Now that I've found this thread I know that somewhere, however, they exist. Not that it actually impacts value or anything.... never saw ANY Leggy on Barrett Jackson, for example. Not that I'm going to stick it in a garage for the future like a friend did back in the 70's with his 4500mi Shelby 427 Cobra. And he had too much money then.

It does add another facet to ownership, knowing how many like YOU are out there. I don't even know when model year numbers start and end for these cars. I'd even drive to Lafayette and ask someone at the factory/assembly plant if I knew who to ask. Nice trip.

Unclemat, any guidance for me here, finding production numbers for my new car??

^^ Also more than one Knock Sensor?

Good question.

The inquiry deepens.

I thought you sold your car Jeff. Are you modding the H6

No, not modding, not yet nor any forseen future...... however . I believe in knowing what is going on. I keep my eye on tire pressures (though this new tire pressure monitoring system is interesting), oil levels, and check the various other fluids. After being intimate with an ECU for years I have come to believe NOT logging one's vehicle is like not doing that other stuff. If, during the coming logging and exploration of the 3.0R ECU, an obvious benefit could be had by changing something I would consider modifying it.

I will mention something I found in Learning View, the 3.0R does have twin AFR systems as MickeyD thought. See, already interesting.

^^ Wanna sell me your 1.3 cable?

Sure.

Somewhat off topic, but it was threads like this that convinced me to upgrade my Tactrix 1.3 to the new Tactrix Openport 2.0. I'd searched for the VagCom cable and wasn't comfortable with what I found. Same when I looked for people's comments about it. When it comes to the car's ECU I do not take chances just for a few bucks.

I ordered the Tactrix from TunerTools.com, like MickeyD suggested, on Friday 9 January and received it on Monday the 12th. It looks great, and worked flawlessly immediately.

And funny how it's only on right handers (at least most of us) and under load (those of us with lots of power).

Yes, and no.

Every car has a tendency to lose traction on one side first, turning just exacerbates that fact and starts the chain reaction easier. And under load, of course, while again it starts on that one side first, that extra power overcomes the greater traction straight forward motion provides.

His post here http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1830889&mode=linear#post1830889 indicates that he calls it a "vibration". (Of course, he doesn't mention he's SpecB there, or within his info.)

 

I would agree, mine sounds more like a vibration than a growl... it's not as "smooth" as a growl... you can hear the "spaces" between the "events" rather clearly. (Implying that a "growl" has little or no "space" between the noise "events".) In other words, it sounds more like a high-rate clattering or metal-to-metal noise... hence why my mechanic theorized the subframe was the culprit... though the "#13, Rear arm front bushing" described by SeeYa in his schematic is certainly another possibility, as mentioned before.

It isn't that bushing in and of itself that is actually making the noises, although it contributes to the symphony. It is what their lack of support for the rear wheels' alignment enables, which is a rapid, repetitive, back and forth fight for traction between the wheels that loads and unloads the entire drivetrain. This causes the two piece driveshaft assembly to move about in its extremely loose rubber mount as well as virtually every other rubber mounted component in the entire rear of the car. Those top rear diff bushings dance to the same baton.

Give the wheels equal traction, all the time, under all power inputs and you can go quicker, too.

BTW, your description of the noise is very good, reflecting my own experiences which have gone but are not forgotten.

I made two interesting discoveries today:

 

1. SpecB front trailing arm bushings are different - noticeably beefier (much less void space). I have JDM GT/SpecB (both get alu arms in JDM) trailing arms, so I am not 100% sure about USDM but I checked part #s and they are different between USDM GT and USDM SpecB (SpecB part# is 20254AE050).

 

It's hard to see in the pic, but GT bushing's openings go thru, while the SpecB do not.

 

2. 06+ rear subframe is different from 05. 06 has different part number and subframe support is missing. Maybe the support contributes to the growl?

 

So I was about to scream "eureka" that the problem is limited to MY05 cars only. However, I scanned thru the posts... and indeed it almost only 05, but there are two reports abou tthe issue on 06 LGT, one of which is a SpecB (Gmachine's).

 

However, except the two 06 owners, there no others complaining, and not a single 07+

 

See pictures.

Great post, great find.

It is obvious how unsuited for the application the 05 piece is. It is also obvious which of those two is superior. However, if the 05 arm is modified properly it will 'cure' its defect and, along with the diff bushing insert and better transmission support, fix the tendency of the rear tires to move about, causing drive shaft oscillations and "wheel hop." The "Growling noise" is nearing defeat.

I said previously that I will do the poly thing (for the rear arm), so the next few lines are not intended to denegrate (first time I have used that word) the poly thing.

 

I did the poly thing in the upper diff bushings. I hated doing it. I hated waiting two days to drive the car. And I just hate the stuff.

 

The reason I think the WL inserts are much better (yes even then the poly and PVC pipe sections) is that the inserts are so ridiculously tight fitting, they pretty much compress the rubber already there as much is it will go, that I almost gave up on putting them in. I lubed the heck out of them, and had to apply an absence amount of leverege force to get them in. There is no way the poly thing (with PVC inserts) is gonna end up making a stiffer joint.

Let's just say, if my bushings were not terminally gooped up I'd remove what I did and use those inserts.

From my installation of that original 5EAT mount insert that was designed for the 4EAT...... I know what you mean about putting them in. So I know what you mean about the stiffening quality. But, whatever, the TOTAL package is apparently what counts, and once you fix those two remaining bushings I think you, too, will find your problem reduced to vanishingly small. You've done everything else.

Not to pick on TIC, but it seems to me people who are supposed to be experts in suspensions would have jumped on those two bushings FIRST. I know they were one of the first things I did, but they are so hard to get to my "fix" kept being ejected from the bushings. It wasn't until that time on the rack when I had the time and access to the bushings that allowed me to fix them permanently. (One messy messy messy odius job, too!)

The proper way to fix them is to take that mounting bracket off, then address the bushings. That, however, was a bigger job than I could deal with at the time and opted for the mess instead. Luckily it works.

I cannot stress enough the pleasure of being able to accelerate however and whenever I choose without that miserable reminder from the rear that something is WRONG, and is going to break someting sooner or later.

Can anyone get a pic (not diagram) of those bushings?

You can't get a clear shot of those bushings. However, they are the same design as the rear diff bushings. Probably different size, but the same design.

That design includes two rubber webs that connect the inner bolt moulding with the outer 'race' moulding. Two air pockets are on either side. It is a nice squishy NVH isolation barrier. It sucks as a locator for the rear wheels, however.

I was not aware that you did anything with these bushings. I must have missed it. Did you have a brief write-up on it anywhere?

 

I absolutely will do those bushings too. It isn't going to hurt anything.

 

Did you fill them with plastic first, then use the 3M stuff to fill in the cracks?

Now I'm enthused . Yes, I spelled it out before, but it is obvious there is more ambiguity in the rear than there is in the front. When we all got front LCA poly bushings we were all on the same page. Not so on the rear.

In any case, I did exactly the same for those bushing as I did for my rear diff bushings. Since those nice inserts you used replaced my prototypical results perhaps they will fit those rear arm forward bushings, too? In any case, what I did was..... cut the PVC pipe sections to size, cover them in 3M WS poly and shove them into those bushing's air pockets, which had previously been swabed with the 3M poly, and then 3M poly squished and squished until front and rear of the bushing had been made contiguous. Then let dry for two or more days.....

I know you denegrate the 3M WS poly and I understand. But it bears remembering that I got the idea from a website that used it to recreate engine mounts..... that worked better than the originals. All jokes aside, the PCV inserts and 3M WS Poly makes on amazingly strong and firm bushing. If they are the same size, and not just general architecture, then those diff inserts would be a true blessing!