Tpms

[GTEASER]

The sensor must have been in the trunk, right? The TPMS system thought it was still mounted on the car.....:lol:

 

If you would have left the sensor at the tire shop then you would have gotten the TPMS light.

[Norm Peterson]

I thought I knew how our TPMS worked until... I had to get a wheel repaired. We took the tire off and removed the sensor. I through it in the trunk and put my spare on. Drove home (about 6 miles). Light never came on. ??? Wheel repaired drove back the next day, remounted sensor and tire all good. A few day later it's 28* here. TPMS light comes on. I check each tire and top one off. Lights been out ever since. My assumption was that the light should come on if any of the sensors programmed to the car detect low PSI, but this didn't happen for me. Yet, I know it's working because the light will go on if I drop pressure and start the car... and let it sit. Put air in that tire (random tire) and the light goes off within 1 to 2 min. So not sure why I didn't get my light driving home on the spare that day.

 

I'm willing to go aftermarket on a sensor, but would expect to pay something for programming.. nominal fee, whatever. While I do check my pressure regularly, I think TPMS is a good thing and worth fixing if not working properly.

When the TPMS module pinged the sensors on startup it was able to find them all. Your drive either home or to the shop wasn't far enough for the low pressure warning to show up (I'm pretty sure there is a distance or time spec for this that the alert must occur within, that 6 miles could well be less than).

 

Tire pressure as a function of temperature is about 1 psi drop of inflation pressure per 10°F drop in ambient temperature assuming that the car sits still long enough for the tire and its air to reach that temperature. Evidently when the sensor was remounted, the actual pressure that the tire was inflated to was a little on the low side.

 

Stay tuned . . .

 

 

Norm

[Norm Peterson]

^^Go for it Norm, I want to hear about it.

OK. I am not making any of this up.

 

Here's the car in question. Not exactly stock, with the mods pertinent here being more roll stiffness than OE and tires mounted on wheels half an inch wider than the max-recommended width for the size.

 

As it happened, I was also headed for an autocross, just not the one pictured here. Think early Sunday morning, with the sun just about to rise.

 

http://mustangforums.com/forum/members/norm-peterson-albums-norm-s-car-pics-picture834-85cp-at-ripken-with-meaningless-cone-200h.jpg

 

 

I hit a piece of metel with the left rear tire travelling on the up-side of a rather long bridge. About an inch long sidewall slice, though the metal stayed embedded (might still have it somewhere). Anyway, I heard the pop like a stone would make and figured that I'd just pay attention but drive normally otherwise. Over the bridge, no real difference in handling feel, so I hit the two ramps to the highway with average-ish enthusiasm.

 

Funny you mentioned 70 mph curves as being a place where you wouldn't want to lose a bead, as that's about what I was running through the second ramp. It did feel like I'd lost a little rear cornering stiffness, like the tire had lost a little pressure, but only a little.

 

So I backed it off, ran another mile or so (elevated roadway, no pulloff areas or "breakdown lane" to speak of). Did an easy lane change maneuver by autocross standards, and it finally felt squishy out back handling-wise and the left rear had dropped slightly. At that point, it was time to pull over regardless. Else I'd be in it for a hard-to-find wheel as well (the wheel was completely undamaged and I still have it).

 

I had travelled a couple of miles from the point where the puncture occurred, taking maybe a little over two minutes.

 

The tire was fully 80% of the way to this condition when I changed it (and for the lane change maneuver as well). I tend to keep souvenirs of various failures, and I just took the picture a few minutes ago.

 

http://www.njstangers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6720&d=1358532763

 

 

Did I mention that both of the ramps were righthanders (which transfers load to the left side tires)?

 

 

I'm in no way suggesting that people go out and try to duplicate this episode. Only that some fairly severe occurrences can be dealt with by the driver without any electronic help if he's on his game and paying attention.

 

No doubt the mods mentioned helped. The somewhat higher lateral stiffness from being stretched slightly meant that the right rear was covering for the LR by more than it would with a more "normal" wheel and tire package.

 

TPMS wouldn't have provided any warning within that time span, or at the very very least could not have been counted on to do so. And the car remained eminently controllable at the prevailing speed of other traffic, all the way down to zero pressure in that tire.

 

 

Norm

[GTEASER]

Good thing the suspension and wheel package wasn't OEM. Thanks for the story Norm!! I guess you didn't go Auto-xing that weekend.

[Norm Peterson]

Actually, I did. It was on the smallest, tightest, and generally slowest lot, so there wasn't much risk once I changed the tire on the other side of the axle.

 

I'd been in the habit of carrying two spares so I wouldn't ever get caught with mis-matched tires on the same axle outside of immediately after an emergency tire change such as that time. Limited slip stick axles don't like mismatched tires much better than AWD does.

 

(225/60's on 15 x 8.5 wheels)

 

 

Norm

[SurlyOldManMN]

^^Go for it Norm, I want to hear about it.

 

Just want to add that if you are unlucky enough to have a puncture or failure that goes down rapidly, TPMS is not gonna warn you any faster than the steering wheel or the butt gauge. TPMS is primarily for warning idiots who don't pay attention to their tire pressures that a tire is low and therefore placing them and others in danger.

 

TPMS will often warn you faster than feedback from the car. Particularly if you're cruising at reasonable highway speeds where handling differences are difficult to detect. Not to mention if you live in an area that sees above freezing and below zero temperatures within 24 hours.

 

It's stupid to rely on TPMS as opposed to actually being on your game, which I hope was your point. Otherwise, that was horrible "advice".

[seiyafan]

TPMS will often warn you faster than feedback from the car. Particularly if you're cruising at reasonable highway speeds where handling differences are difficult to detect. Not to mention if you live in an area that sees above freezing and below zero temperatures within 24 hours.

 

Don't give "advice" like that.

 

I want to second this. My last flat tire was caused by a puncture on a busy street, there were cars in front of me and behind me, I have been following a car in front me for a while then all of a sudden the TPMS light lit up, I actually drove for about a mile before finding a safe place to pull over because the handling was absolutely fine, and the cold temperature in that morning also made me thinking this was a false alarm. It was not. As soon as I was out of the car I heard a very soft hissing sound, then the sound guided me to discover a piece of plexiglas stuck between the tread area and the sidewall (which rendered the tire irreparable) of a rear tire. It had been several minutes past and there was still some air left in the tire. I could have driven for another mile or two before it emptied completely. But I was lucky I decided at the last minute not to enter highway with the TPMS light on that morning, I was fortunate that it saved my ass.

[GTEASER]

It's stupid to rely on TPMS as opposed to actually being on your game, which I hope was your point.

 

Yes that was my point. I would never condone anyone being so lazy as to rely on TPMS to tell them when tire pressure maintenance is required.

 

Part of my point was that in a "blow out" scenario, like OP's, TPMS isn't gonna tell you anything before you are going to be required to take drastic measures to control your car. Heck, the last thing you should be worried about in this scenario is the little light on the dash.

 

And absolutely, in a case like seiyafan just mentioned, a puncture that is losing air fairly rapidly, TPMS is a great tool for the driver to be alerted there is an issue.

[Norm Peterson]

The detection requirements as per the final TPMS Rule (49 CFR Parts 571 and 585) specifies only that the system must (boldface mine):

 

"(a) Illuminate a low tire pressure warning telltale not more than 20 minutes after the inflation pressure in one or more of the vehicle'e tires, up to a total of four tires, is equal to or less than either the pressure 25% below the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure or the pressure specified in the 3rd column of Table 1 of this standard for the corresponding type of tire, whichever is higher."

 

IOW, a legally certifiable TPMS system could hold off its warning for 20 full minutes. A tire can go dead-flat in less than two . . .

 

Admittedly, that's a minimum spec, and there was some controversy over it being too long of an interval. Some, maybe most TPMS systems respond more rapidly than that, but even that's not the point because the system response time is still unknown (unless you have access to the mfrs' engineering data and test results).

 

My point here is that there is no guarantee that TPMS will inform a reasonably attentive driver before he picks up information suggesting a soft tire otherwise. There is no guarantee it'll tell you anything at all before you're down on the rim when the deflation is relatively rapid. In some cases it will (as it apparently did in seiyafan's incident), but in others it won't.

 

seiyafan - I'm glad it kept you from having to change a tire out on the highway shoulder, as that's a pretty risky thing to have to do. But I wouldn't ascribe anything else to it.

 

 

I have that TPMS piece as a .pdf pulled directly from the Federal Register if anybody is interested.

 

 

Norm

[SurlyOldManMN]

never mind. My math sucks.

[muggzs]

Wow!

Did a search on forum to see if I could add aftermarket TPMS on my stock 2011 2.5i to see if it will work.

After the first page of this thread I decided to warm up some popcorn and read the back and forth jabs/comments that were happening. Good laughs.

 

So - assuming I can do what I came to search for, unless someone else has an update or recommendation on which aftermarket TPMS item.

 

TIA

[Zee199969]

I am saddened by the lack of sammiches in this thread [emoji16]

[FLlegacy]

Some individuals are so anti-technology...just finished up my peanut butter, banana, and jelly sammich!

 

 

Whether you agree or not tpms does serve a legitimate purpose, to the point of being mandated on vehicles...no. However, we have all seen the genius driving around on a tire that is holding just enough air not to be riding on the rim...those are the people tpms was mandated for...the ones who don't know not to put peanut butter in a toaster or not to shower with a hair dryer.

[Norm Peterson]

Seems a little skepticism might be healthy. They say timing is everything, and with that in mind a link to this was in my mailbox this evening. You'll have to go to the link to see the chart, but the number of vehicles involved has been a seven-digit number for 2014, 2015, and is already past that a million for 2016.

 

Record Number Of Software Complaints And Recalls Threaten Trust In Automotive Technology, Says J.D. Power SafetyIQ

by Underhood Service Staff Writers - May 25, 2016

 

Consumer complaints about vehicle software have been growing steadily over the past several years, and 2016 is already on-pace with the record-setting level of 2015, according to data collected and released by J.D. Power through its SafetyIQ program.

 

So far in 2016, consumers have filed 202 formal complaints with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) pertaining to software that controls the technology prevalent in vehicles. NHTSA had received 204 software-related complaints during the same time a year ago, and logged a total of 615 for the full year in 2015, surpassing the previous annual record of 505 set in 2014. During the past five years, consumers have registered 2,011 complaints related to automotive software.

 

“Consumer complaints are the canaries in the coalmine for automobile manufacturers when it comes to anticipating future recalls and longer-term customer satisfaction,” said Renee Stephens, vice president of U.S. automotive at J.D. Power. “Software-related problems have become much more prevalent and, if not addressed, could begin to erode consumer trust in new automotive technology.”

 

Using SafetyIQ, an online application developed by J.D. Power that integrates NHTSA data with J.D. Power automotive data, investigators can see a connection between the complaints lodged and recall decisions. For example, the number of recalls is on the rise as well, up 45 percent between 2014 and 2015. To date, 189 separate software recalls have been issued in the past five years, impacting more than 13 million vehicles. According to analysis by manufacturers, 141 of these recalls presented a risk of crashing and 44 had a potential consequence of injury. Powertrain, electrical systems, engine cooling and vehicle control systems are the top areas for software complaints and recalls.

 

“Using this information from owner complaints, automakers can quickly identify whether the problem crosses model lines, components or even other companies with similar components/suppliers, and can begin to address the breadth of the concerns,” said Stephens. “Not every complaint registered by consumers becomes a recall, but they are all very important to manufacturers.”

 

Once complaints become a recall, by definition they involve a potential safety concern. At this point, only half of the vehicles affected by a software recall have been remedied; the other half may still be on the road.

 

Technical Service Bulletins On The Rise

Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) trends are a further indication of the increasing concerns raised about automotive software, according to J.D. Power. TSBs represent communication from the auto manufacturers to their dealer bodies on the recommended repair procedure for a consumer issue raised. The research company says manufacturers typically only use this form of communication if they’ve received many complaints, particularly if these complaints do not seem to be addressed through regular warranty repairs. SafetyIQ shows that TSBs pertaining to software issues increased from an average of 58 per year between 2006 and 2010 to an average of 160 per year from 2011 through 2015.

 

Still, software upgrades aren’t infallible. J.D. Power 2016 Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) found that one-third of owners reporting a navigation system problem had a software upgrade within the past six months; however, 55 percent of these consumers said the upgrade did not fix the problem at all. “Even though there is an increasing potential to correct issues using software upgrades, consumer experienced has been mixed,” said Stephens. “Some owners are either not aware of the upgrades available or have reported limited success.”

 

With the amount of electrical componentry continuing to increase in vehicles — particularly as the industry is on its way to fully autonomous capability — J.D. Power says the trend of rising complaints, recalls and TSBs is both expected and worrisome. Understanding and addressing the complaints quickly is paramount, particularly as more vehicle functions are controlled by software. Having the right tools to see and react to these trends can help ensure a safer environment as these vehicle capabilities increase.

Between you, me, and the wall - technology just might be being pulled a little too hard by tech-seeking customers and pushed a little too fast by the car mfrs for its own good.

 

http://www.underhoodservice.com/record-number-of-software-complaints-and-recalls-threaten-trust-in-automotive-technology-says-j-d-power-safetyiq/?eid=284863486&bid=1420698

 

 

Norm

[encore75]

Wow!

Did a search on forum to see if I could add aftermarket TPMS on my stock 2011 2.5i to see if it will work.

After the first page of this thread I decided to warm up some popcorn and read the back and forth jabs/comments that were happening. Good laughs.

 

So - assuming I can do what I came to search for, unless someone else has an update or recommendation on which aftermarket TPMS item.

 

TIA

 

You can get Schrader 33000 or 33500 EZ-Sensors and have them cloned to your existing TPMS sensors' codes so that you don't have to reset the main unit to new codes. I got a set of 33000 sensors on Amazon when I got my aftermarket wheels and had Discount Tire install and clone them. That way, when I put winter tires on my OEM wheels, I can swap them out without having to do a TPMS reset.

 

You can also check directly with Discount Tire, since they also sell the Schraders. The manager told me he would've price matched, which would've been nice to know beforehand, but oh well. I got them on Amazon for about 1/2 of what Discount Tire sells them for (without price matching), so it doesn't hurt to see if they'll match.

 

EDIT: I just realized you're in TO and don't know if they have Discount Tire out there, so YMMV.

[FLlegacy]

Seems a little skepticism might be healthy. They say timing is everything, and with that in mind a link to this was in my mailbox this evening. You'll have to go to the link to see the chart, but the number of vehicles involved has been a seven-digit number for 2014, 2015, and is already past that a million for 2016.

 

Between you, me, and the wall - technology just might be being pulled a little too hard by tech-seeking customers and pushed a little too fast by the car mfrs for its own good.

 

http://www.underhoodservice.com/record-number-of-software-complaints-and-recalls-threaten-trust-in-automotive-technology-says-j-d-power-safetyiq/?eid=284863486&bid=1420698

 

 

Norm

 

 

I don't believe tpms was pushed on customers by the manufacturer as much as by the feds, trying to keep the lowest common denominator in our population at bay. If there is any blame to be had it lays at the feet of lawyers who take up the cause of morons not fit pass their genetic material onto the next generation.

[Norm Peterson]

↑↑↑ . . . TPMS specifically, was more about pressure from the Feds, although the early use of TPMS came with run-flat tires which wasn't directly from Federal involvement. There may have been some indirect pressure from the Feds, by reason of run-flats eliminating the weight of the spare and marginally benefitting fuel economy.

 

I was really addressing the "anti-technology" thought in a wider, more general sense.

 

 

Norm

[FLlegacy]

↑↑↑ . . . TPMS specifically, more the Feds, although the early use of TPMS came with run-flat tires which wasn't directly from Federal involvement. Indirectly maybe, by eliminating the weight of the spare.

 

I was really addressing the "anti-technology" thought in a wider, more general sense.

 

 

Norm

 

I don't believe tpms was pushed on customers by the manufacturer as much as by the feds, trying to keep the lowest common denominator in our population at bay. If there is any blame to be had it lays at the feet of lawyers who take up the cause of morons not fit pass their genetic material onto the next generation.

 

As was I...

[YeuEmMaiMai]

I don't believe tpms was pushed on customers by the manufacturer as much as by the feds, trying to keep the lowest common denominator in our population at bay. If there is any blame to be had it lays at the feet of lawyers who take up the cause of morons not fit pass their genetic material onto the next generation.

 

exactly right

 

The Feds are mandating cars have a list of set features by a set date (date as in physical year, not model year)

 

Dual Front Airbags by 1995

Inside trunk release 2002

TPMS 2007

Stability Control 2012

rear view cameras 2018

 

a scary ones from a privacy POV...

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/nhtsa-may-mandate-new-cars-broadcast-location-direction-and-speed

[schism]

You can get Schrader 33000 or 33500 EZ-Sensors and have them cloned to your existing TPMS sensors' codes so that you don't have to reset the main unit to new codes. I got a set of 33000 sensors on Amazon when I got my aftermarket wheels and had Discount Tire install and clone them. That way, when I put winter tires on my OEM wheels, I can swap them out without having to do a TPMS reset.

 

You can also check directly with Discount Tire, since they also sell the Schraders. The manager told me he would've price matched, which would've been nice to know beforehand, but oh well. I got them on Amazon for about 1/2 of what Discount Tire sells them for (without price matching), so it doesn't hurt to see if they'll match.

 

EDIT: I just realized you're in TO and don't know if they have Discount Tire out there, so YMMV.

 

I just called TireRack, sales claims the EZ sensors won't work with 2010 Leggy's. Offered the VT15, I have not verified what cars it will work with.

 

What a major bummer, the concept of having them 'cloned' was like an epiphany....