skatenation Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Stang, could we get an update? any more issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stang70Fastback Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 Not a one! That was absolutely, positively the root cause of the problem! Thanks to everyone who saved me a boatload of money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharl Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Hi Stang! and all of you guys! (i used to have an account here... but.....) i am happy you did solve the problem! but id like to ask you three questions, and if is not too much to ask id like the others guys to analize this to figure it out whats going on with my mom's car. I have ALMOST the exact same problem you had..... BUT... in my case... THE PROBLMEM discharge the battery, and years ago (i have about three years with this problem, but the events (when the car didnt wanted to start) were so distant one from another that i really didnt give it too much mind. When the problem first appeared, we notice there was a delay after the key reach "start", the car didnt wanted to crank, courioustly after moving the shift knob from P to N and try again, then the car starts... and a year went and moving the shift P-N was enought, but then the delay become bigger, one second, two second 5 seconds.... the problem usually started to appear in the mornings, when i measure the battery the battery was very low, with just a couple of minutes of charge, that was enough to crank... but if i decide to leave the charger the whole night (for a full heathy charge)... the next time we needed the car it woudl start, but you can take it for sure that not the second day!!!! Yesterday, the car just didnt wanted to crank at all, there was no way, neither moving the shift from P to N, neither with charge, neither with another battery... ( years before i changed battery twice and a dumb mechanics changed me the alternator too, because the very very first symptom were suddenly discharged battery accompanied by slight delay in cranking) i decide to have someone inside the car with the ky held in the "start" position while i move all wires and connector to see if i find a loose contact or connector.... and nothing, but what i found, after 15 seconds with the key in start was, that the wire that goes to the starter (the thin one) was hot, and the wires that come from the transmission were hot too. (remember that i mentioned that years ago the problem could be temproaly sovlved by trying to start it in N) so.. In RESUME (and thank you for reading me guys...) my problem is almost the same than the one Stang had, BUT the problem discharged the battery, and i got hot starter and transmission wires. (it looks like if the corroded/worn contact were also doing slight short circuit that slowly discharged battery... it fits the scenario but what about the hot transmission wires and the fact that sometimes it started shifting between P and N) and the three questions to Stang are: -did you know know if you had some hot wires while.... -did you had suddenly discharged battery after a day without using the car? -was you able to start it up trying it in N instead P? Sorry for my english guy... (just learning it while i ride....) so what you guys think!!!???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stang70Fastback Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 Well I never had any of the three problems that you describe. It definitely sounds like you have a short somewhere - that is the only reason to explain the battery being drained... especially with hot wires. If I had to guess, and this really is just a guess, you have something wrong with the shift interlock system. That system does not allow the vehicle to be started unless the transmission is in the 'P' or 'N' position. Perhaps that system is starting to act up. If that is the case, it might not think you are in 'P' when you actually are, which is why you have to shift to 'N' to start the engine? Perhaps that is related to your short circuit? I'm sure there are other folks here who will have a better idea of what is going on, so good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharl Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 ok... well... i have another question guys.. does somebody knows which resistance (if any, or infinite) should be present between the two battery connector (without the battery)? the corroded contact of the starter could be causing the discharged battery since (the plunger) is surrounded all by earth/mass... and i see mine in very deteriorate state, i meassure the resistance between the plunger and the metal arround it (since the plunger receive directly from the positive battery's connector.... should exist resistence) but there isnt much... anyway i am doing the thest johnegg mention (to jump 12v from the battery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharl Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Well I never had any of the three problems that you describe. It definitely sounds like you have a short somewhere - that is the only reason to explain the battery being drained... especially with hot wires. If I had to guess, and this really is just a guess, you have something wrong with the shift interlock system. That system does not allow the vehicle to be started unless the transmission is in the 'P' or 'N' position. Perhaps that system is starting to act up. If that is the case, it might not think you are in 'P' when you actually are, which is why you have to shift to 'N' to start the engine? Perhaps that is related to your short circuit? I'm sure there are other folks here who will have a better idea of what is going on, so good luck! thank you for your answer Stang! you made me to investigate more about it and i found this, an din the same forum! (about the transmission overheated cables....) this is a quote from a user called "Skip" that johnegg mentioned in another post (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/starting-problem-146156.html?t=146156&highlight=starterrelay) more info on the starter relay below. this write up is for older subarus but it works just as well for the first and second gen legacys we drive. i don't know about the third gens. Quote: Originally Posted by Skip There are currently several active posts on starter engagement problems. I thought this may be of interest. (Please note, this article only refers to 1989 and earlier Subarus, newer Loyales MTs may have a clutch interrupt switch, see ** below) First to dispel info given in reference to any relays involved. There are none, repeat no relays come on a factory equipped car. As will be seen it is a reliable fix to add one, but there is no relay used for starter engagement. The ignition switch, when in the start position, feeds battery voltage directly to the starter solenoid unless the vehicle has an automatic transmission. In this case, there is an inhibitor switch in the console which only allows the control voltage to reach the starter solenoid in the park or neutral position. Just a switch no relay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharl Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 ..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharl Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I tried to do the jump-test today but following the lines as Johnegg says; to jump when will not start, i first tried to start, but the car started after 3 seconds of delay in the key! i turn the engine off, and tried again and there was 4 seconds delay, i did this twice and always 3-5 seconds delay, but it was working like if nothing wrong were there..., i decide to test with the jump wire and there was no delay the starter cranked instantly i touched the spade connector with the wire... then what is causing the delay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnegg Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 then what is causing the delay? some wire, component, connector in the ignition circuit in the steering? column. i am no 12volt wizard, but a delay suggest to me that a connector is dirty. as the current flows for several seconds, it heats the connection up and it finally conducts enough juice to fire the solenoid on the starter. (just a guess) clean the battery cable connections. check the cable ends for corrosion this (and a weak battery) is the leading cause of a no start situation. more common than starters or ignition circuits combined. after you have done that......... the test proves that the starter will work, the solenoid engages. i would install a relay at / near the starter. the ignition circuit would activate the relay (new relay will require less juice to activate.) the relay would then connect power from the battery directly to the small spade connector on the starter. (a much shorter / newer wire run, more power to the solenoid.) this is a pretty cheap fix ($10?), a relay, a fused power supply wire from the battery (3-4 ft.), several female & male spade type connectors, and a ground wire (~2 ft). pretty easy too. starterfix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharl Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 some wire, component, connector in the ignition circuit in the steering? column. i am no 12volt wizard, but a delay suggest to me that a connector is dirty. as the current flows for several seconds, it heats the connection up and it finally conducts enough juice to fire the solenoid on the starter. (just a guess) clean the battery cable connections. check the cable ends for corrosion this (and a weak battery) is the leading cause of a no start situation. more common than starters or ignition circuits combined. after you have done that......... the test proves that the starter will work, the solenoid engages. i would install a relay at / near the starter. the ignition circuit would activate the relay (new relay will require less juice to activate.) the relay would then connect power from the battery directly to the small spade connector on the starter. (a much shorter / newer wire run, more power to the solenoid.) this is a pretty cheap fix ($10?), a relay, a fused power supply wire from the battery (3-4 ft.), several female & male spade type connectors, and a ground wire (~2 ft). pretty easy too. Thanks Johnegg for your answer! The battery is kind of weak (i mean, is not the top of the line and not so strong because it discharge under 12v several times at month due the same problem...) but the starter worked vigorously when i did the jump.... BUT i continue doing the test for some days more... about what you says regarding installing the relay.. i agree with that... just to be clear, after a relay installation is there, the cable that used to be attached to the starter solenoid spade conector, now would be connected to the relay to activate it right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnegg Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 yes. there are 4 connectors on the relay. (any generic relay form a local parts store will do.) 1/ the small wire going to the starter goes to one terminal. 2/ and a new wire from the relay goes to the small spade connector on the starter. 3/ a new FUSED wire goes from the battery to the relay. 4/ and finally, a new wire goes from the relay to a ground on the chassis. the only challenge is knowing which 2 terminals are on the same side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharl Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 yes. there are 4 connectors on the relay. (any generic relay form a local parts store will do.) 1/ the small wire going to the starter goes to one terminal. 2/ and a new wire from the relay goes to the small spade connector on the starter. 3/ a new FUSED wire goes from the battery to the relay. 4/ and finally, a new wire goes from the relay to a ground on the chassis. the only challenge is knowing which 2 terminals are on the same side. Grreat! just couple of questions for a while.... the relay.. how many amps? i have some bosh in box rated 40amps (12v), i have read that only 10amp would be necessary and no more..... and the same for the fuse.. how many amps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharl Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Hi johnegg, and all of you guys!! i haven't done the relay addition... the car went to the mechanics for an engine seal replacement (i think i already said that) and i asked to the mechanic if he can check the starting system and then he told me that the starter needed some pieces to be replaced, i asked him which pieces, then he told me the same thinks talked here, the solenoid, contacts and plunger stuff.. ok, after he finished i pick up the car and "everything" works fairly fine, but after a week i start to notice a slight 3/4 second of delay, from a week ago the delay was like before, 2, 3 4 or 5 seconds, exactly as before... then what the mechanic did? just to mention and to refresh some facts, i have a brand new battery, and there is a lot of juice to the starter cables, so i can discard ignition switch/key related system and wiring... it is like if the starter were stuck because when the key is on "start" position, in those 5 seconds before the starter cranks, i hear the battery acid boiling inside and the starter cable gets hot.... and just to add one last fact; when the mechanic finished, he give me the old replaced pieces, and those pieces are: the plunger, and ONE of the contact, not the two of them, but i don't know if he changed both and lost one of the old so he was unable to give it to me, or if he only changed one of the worn contact maybe because hes too lazy and had difficulties changing the other.... i don't know just a possibility... Check the video i uploaded... i think it is the best capture of the problem it self.... http://youtu.be/6sm_Z9WADNw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J. Tarnas Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 Having a similar no-crank problem. (Luckily I mostly ride a bike so fixing this is not urgent.) 1999 Legacy BK 2.2L 5-speed manual, 180K miles. Turn key to ON, seems fine. Turn to START, no crank. I thought it might be the clutch start switch, tested it, seemed okay -- open circuit with clutch relaxed, a few ohms between 90% and 99% depressed, then seemed to go back to open circuit at 100% depressed. So, jumped the wire connector anyway to eliminate that (1" of 12ga solid copper wire from one side to the other on the white plastic male connector). Then I hooked up a multimeter to the battery and watched it through the windshield. Sunny but cold -- 25*F today in Pittsburgh. Round #1: - car off, battery reads 12.30 V - key to ON, 9.60 V - hold key to START, no delay, engine cranks and starts - (didn't get the voltage reading on that START event) - engine running, hovers around 14.38 V - marker lights on, 14.23V - headlights on, 14.12V - headlights + brake pedal, 14.00V - let car idle for 5 minutes - turn off car - battery voltage drops from ~13.50 to 12.20 in one minute, then keeps dropping more slowly Round #2, a few minutes later: - car off, battery reads 12.10 V - key to ON, 9.50 V - hold key to START, 4-second no crank delay, then crank and start - (didn't get the voltage reading on that START event) - engine running, hovers around 14.18 V - turn off car after one minute - battery voltage drops from ~13.60 to 12.20 in ~one minute, then keeps dropping more slowly Round #3: - car off, battery reads 12.10 V - key to ON, 8.80 V - hold key to START, no crank, hovers ~4.40V - won't start - key out, battery voltage bounces back up to 12.20 in ~20 seconds I'll try the battery to solenoid "hotwire" trick. The battery is old and I've been told it's at the end of its life. I have two group 24 batteries on hand but they're just too big to fit in the group 35 space -- hits an AC pipe and the oil filler neck. I should do a grounding kit and new wiring harness too, the negative terminal clamp is jerry-rigged together. Reading this thread, I suppose starter solenoid contacts and plunger would be good too ("worn out copper" has been a recurring theme since I bought this car eight months ago). (Context: only code on this car is for rear O2 sensor -- idles high for a few seconds, then low, then high, then low. There's a high pitched trill/whine matched to RPM, both standing still and driving, which seems to be electrical in nature -- turning the radio from ON (volume at 0) to OFF causes the pitch of the sound to change. I assume it's the alternator but stethoscope implicates something near the transmission/firewall area.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharl Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 i forget to mention that when the car does that, once its hot it doesnt do it, i mean, this delay for cranking always occur first time of the day after that the car starts ok... as i mentioned before, i suspect the mechanic didn change both contacts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 that is some seriously low voltage for any car. when you turn your key to the on position, you should be over 12V. when starting, if it drops under the 9V mark i consider it a bad battery or an accessory drain. usually a bad battery tho. did you take the battery in for a test or two? could be the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J. Tarnas Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Aha -- thanks for the context. I don't know what normal battery voltage looks like, so I posted all that data to see if it raised any flags for those who do know. I did get a new battery, Autocraft Gold, $136 after $18 core credit and taxes. So hopefully if it lasts 5 years that means it will cost ~$27/yr for this battery and it might be worth $18 at the end. We might have tough LFP or nanofilm batteries to choose from by then! Haven't tested to see how this new battery performs (beyond the fact that it starts the car now) and don't know if there are any accessory drains, wouldn't know how to investigate that. But I bought 20' of 6ga wire to replace the existing grounds once the deep freeze ends here (no garage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J. Tarnas Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Aw jeez, now it won't start for a different reason. Been pretty cold off and on here, 30s today, 40s tomorrow, 10s next week. - key to ON, can hear the fuel pump - key to START, engine cranks, does not run My EVAP system and filler neck are rusted through in two or more places, so I'm guessing there's frozen water in a fuel line or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 does it start after the sun comes up and it warms up a bit? i know thats a relative term, warming up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J. Tarnas Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 On Sunday it got up to 45*F here but it didn't start running then (crank only). Now we're back below 10*F, brought my new battery inside, don't want to kill it the very first week I own it. Just going to wait until we're back above 40 in a few days. Not sure what the procedure for isolating the problem is. Perhaps: - spray carb cleaner in intake air, try to start engine just to see if it can run for a few seconds (can we do this? used to on my carbureted toyota 22R, don't know how to treat injectors) - this would suggest there's a fuel delivery problem - remove fuel line from tank side of fuel filter (~6 months old) - stick end in empty bottle, turn key to START - see what comes out - if normal gas, pressure test the line while attached to fuel filter - check that fuel pump is within electrical specs - pull out a spark plug to make sure it's not soaked in gas - if mixed with water, run pump for a while - if no fuel, look in tank to make sure it's not somehow on empty (reads half-full) - then what? I use 89 octane ("plus") gas in this car. The clutch's neutral start witch is jumped, if that matters. It ran fine on Dec 28 when I installed the new battery at AutoZone and then again on Dec 29. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMG Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 My 04 legacy has been on occasion lumpy to start even dropping down gears until when warm then is fine. Some days it won't start at all. It was lumpy start this morning drove 4oo yards and now wont start at all. I've checked fuses, fuel pump. 80% of time its fine Any ideas any one ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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