2011 Legacy Audio Build w/ LOTS of Questions

[zambazil]

Me thinks Cipher you're on the right path.. Audiophile listening application in a car stereo set up is really quite a challenge. Investment in sound deadening materials & isolation would be a really big factor I imagine. If its got the Burr-Browns, then its gotta be something serious. So no need for a stand alone DAC I see. Awesome HU. Wonder if it plays FLAC too? I'll try to check it out.

[cipher_nemo]

I'm sorry but did I miss where you state what amps/amp you will be using? Old age has a way of catching up to me lol. I'm really enjoying how it is all in the details with you. Will be following this thread closely and appreciate that you have taken the time to share it.

 

Thanks.

 

And the amps I'll be using are in the OP...

Here's a subject-to-change list...

 

• Pioneer DEH-80PRS head unit (stereo/receiver)
  
• AudioControl THREE.2 dash-mounted EQ. I really like this simple device that gives a quick and easy way to fade, sweep, and tune on the fly.
  
• Focal FPS 4160 amp or an alternative amp (drives doors)
  
• Focal K2 Power 165 KR2 6.5" speakers (front doors and tweets to dash)
  
• Focal K2 Power 165 KRC 6.5" coax speakers (rear doors for fill)
  
• Alpine MRP M500 amp (drives sub)
  
• Alpine SBR-S83V 8" sub and factory-made box

But I really don't want to spend a grand on the Focal amp, even though I love it. I'm seriously considering alternatives in the $400-600 range for a 4-channel AB amp.

 

Me thinks Cipher you're on the right path.. Audiophile listening application in a car stereo set up is really quite a challenge. Investment in sound deadening materials & isolation would be a really big factor I imagine. If its got the Burr-Browns, then its gotta someting serious. So no need for a stand alone DAC I see. Awesome HU. Wonder if it plays FLAC too? I'll try to check it out.

 

Thanks! Crutchfield has a good amount of specs on their site for it: http://www.crutchfield.com/p_13080PRS/Pioneer-DEH-80PRS.html#details-tab

 

It just lists MP3, WMA, WAV, and AAC?

[coppertone]

Coppertone, has sent you an audio pm.

[cipher_nemo]

Anyone have any experience or have heard the Helix E400 tube amp? http://www.crutchfield.com/p_975E400/Helix-E400.html?tp=115

Looks impressive. I hope it sounds that way too. The two tubes are pretty small as they're only used for the preamp section. I've heard tube amps in the past and they're pretty warm since they soften the music a little. But those were all tubes for all stages of the amps. Not sure how tubes for preamp and transistor-based AB for rest of the amp sounds?

 

They're easier on the wallet at $800 compared to the $1,200 Focal (and not as insane as Brax). Slightly less than Focal's 150x4 RMS, but 110 each channel is still plenty for me.

 

Thoughts?

[lingling1337]

Nice, didn't even know that head units these days had USB DAC (esp. quality burr-brown units). Should sound badass, enjoy.

[cipher_nemo]

Nice, didn't even know that head units these days had USB DAC (esp. quality burr-brown units). Should sound badass, enjoy.

 

Yup, Pioneer did a fantastic job on their later model head units. Their ability to play WAV and their DA converters were the primary reasons I went with them over Alpine. And I'm glad their UI is better than the clunky Alpines too.

[cbass85]

I know this may be a question i'll have to find out for my self, but I was wondering if you were going to mount your tweeters in the stock locations.

 

And if you were how you were going to run the wires, or even if you knew where the stock wires came into the harness for the radio.

[cipher_nemo]

I know this may be a question i'll have to find out for my self, but I was wondering if you were going to mount your tweeters in the stock locations.

 

And if you were how you were going to run the wires, or even if you knew where the stock wires came into the harness for the radio.

 

Yes, I will be mounting all of my speakers in stock locations. I want to keep a stock look in the cabin. The only modification I might do is to alter the plastic covers so that they're cloth instead of perforated plastic.

 

As for running the tweeter wires, I'm going to have to research and/or experiment with that. Hopefully when you remove the tweeter covers they have room to drop down cables through the dash. If not, that might be a pain.

[cipher_nemo]

I will be using two USB cables to run connections from my head unit's two rear-mounted USB ports to my center console area. This will be where the stock location is for the auxiliary port from the stock head unit. For those with Harman Kardon stock systems, they run a USB port here already. Mine doesn't have that yet.

 

I hope a 3' cable will do, since the shorter the better for minimal voltage drop along a powered USB connection. The head unit does up to 1A of USB power and the SSD I want to use it around 0.8A at max load. I want a fairly short cable so that the voltage won't drop to make up for the amperage. But if the 3' won't reach, I'll have to do a 6' cable and hope for the best. I have plenty of USB A male to A female cables lying around, so those links are just for examples. I'll add ferrite filters to the cables to ensure quick data transfers since I'll be playing back large WAV files on the fly.

 

Worst case scenario: I'd have to run a power adapter from the dash to the center console for the external 2.5" case of the SSD.

 

Some of my research...

 

More than you ever wanted to know about ferrite filtering: http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/11/may.html

[zambazil]

Some of my research...

 

More than you ever wanted to know about ferrite filtering: http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/11/may.html

 

This is interesting. I haven't heard if this before so please excuse my ignorance. So the concept is trying to maximally preserve the (RF?) signal without any significant loss? Of course the longer the USB cable the more prone it is. Did I get it right? Do you think it would also apply to running long cables for a subwoofer (LFE) in a home theater environment?

[cipher_nemo]

This is interesting. I haven't heard if this before so please excuse my ignorance. So the concept is trying to maximally preserve the (RF?) signal without any significant loss? Of course the longer the USB cable the more prone it is. Did I get it right? Do you think it would also apply to running long cables for a subwoofer (LFE) in a home theater environment?

 

That web page is really dedicated to data transmission as opposed to audio signal/wave transmission. My research into it was for USB cables, so I'm not really sure what ferrite core passive filters will do to an audio signal.

 

You don't normally see ferrite filters on RCA cables for car audio, so I assume that's because it narrows the dynamic range of the signal. That would be very bad for your highs. Not sure if it would help or hinder an RCA going to a sub's amp.

 

And it's also difficult to determine how the technical jargon in the article applies to audio. For example, insertion loss and impedance sounds pretty bad for audio's dynamic range on an RCA cable and worse for speaker-level wiring. That pretty much enters crossover territory. After all, they use ferrite cores/toroidal filters in crossovers.

 

So for audio, I'd say stay away from ferrite cores for all cables except may be your sub amp's RCAs. I'll have to test it on that cable after my install to see if it has any passive effect on bass performance or quality.

[zambazil]

I see, so it is data - since it also discussed freqs in the MHz range.

I'd love to see your ferrite filtering results.

Hmm.. How about bit streaming via HDMI?

[cipher_nemo]

I see, so it is data - since it also discussed freqs in the MHz range.

I'd love to see your ferrite filtering results.

Hmm.. How about bit streaming via HDMI?

 

It should help keep an HDMI line clean since it's digital data being passed over it. Any digital, electrical line could benefit from a ferrite filter. That includes HDMI audio and video which is uncompressed digital data.

[jmad456]

I had the SBR hooked to a PDXV9 500 watts and it blew in 2 days with correct gains, filters etc. Upgraded to a W3 10 and no problems. Also have the KRX2 and the bass on those is so good I sometimes can't even tell I have a sub. It's blended well but even muting and unmuting the sub it's hard to tell. The Alpine may not be enough with the Focals. I also have the P80 , no complaints. A lot of cool functions to discover.

[cipher_nemo]

I had the SBR hooked to a PDXV9 500 watts and it blew in 2 days with correct gains, filters etc. Upgraded to a W3 10 and no problems. Also have the KRX2 and the bass on those is so good I sometimes can't even tell I have a sub. It's blended well but even muting and unmuting the sub it's hard to tell. The Alpine may not be enough with the Focals. I also have the P80 , no complaints. A lot of cool functions to discover.

 

The Alpine is my sub amp, not the components amp. I have listed a Focal amp for the Focal components, but I may end up getting something else like a Helix amp.

[phenryiv1]

• Focal K2 Power 165 KRC 6.5" coax speakers (rear doors for fill)
  
• Focal K2 Power 165 KR2 6.5" speakers (front doors and tweets to dash)
  

When you go to mount these, please let me know if I can be of assistance in providing adapters. I make PVC 3/4" speaker adapters and the Focal product line is one of my most commonly-requested variations (after the Polk dB series).

 

Here is a link to past examples- many of them for the Focal Polyglass and Axess lines (a few were for the K2 Power, but I could not tell you which ones if I tried):

 

http://www.subaruaudio.net/subaru-speaker-spacers/#ga

 

 

Additionally, if you would be willing to loan me any of your install pictures (particularly those related to the doors) for my how-to website, I would be very appreciative. The site is here:

 

http://www.subaruaudio.net/

 

Under "Installations" I do not have anything for the 2010+ Legacy, so any content that you could provide would be appreciated.

[jmad456]

The Alpine is my sub amp, not the components amp. I have listed a Focal amp for the Focal components, but I may end up getting something else like a Helix amp.

 

I meant running the "Alpine SBR-S83V 8" sub and factory-made box" with the Focal Krx2's. The Focals sound so good they could easily be run without a sub and you may probably want a bigger sub to pair with them. But I also have about 80 Sq ft of ensolite and Rammat in my trunk area so that could be why it didn't have a very big impact- and why I didn't even realize it was no longer working until I opened the trunk with the system going to show off how soundproof the trunk area was:) It was hooked to an Alpine PDX V9 5 channel amp which has a 500 watt mono sub channel similar to the Alpine amp you have listed.

[cipher_nemo]

I meant running the "Alpine SBR-S83V 8" sub and factory-made box" with the Focal Krx2's. The Focals sound so good they could easily be run without a sub and you may probably want a bigger sub to pair with them. But I also have about 80 Sq ft of ensolite and Rammat in my trunk area so that could be why it didn't have a very big impact- and why I didn't even realize it was no longer working until I opened the trunk with the system going to show off how soundproof the trunk area was:) It was hooked to an Alpine PDX V9 5 channel amp which has a 500 watt mono sub channel similar to the Alpine amp you have listed.

 

Ah, gotcha. And yeah, I'm not really looking for a huge bass-thumping car. I want a lot of mid-bass, so going for the 8" Alpine R-type which is rating pretty good down to 28Hz (30Hz crossover point). But it should excel at that 80-300Hz range, which I want more of in my car. So it's certainly nice to have the 6" stock speaker areas for the doors. That means I won't have to make up too much in the sub area for mid-bass. And they're Alpines, so they're pretty cheap while supposedly sounding decent. If I'm really not 100% happy with them, I can always swap them for something else in the future without taking too much of a cost hit. It will be more than good enough now for filling in bass to go with the Focal components.

 

 

When you go to mount these, please let me know if I can be of assistance in providing adapters. I make PVC 3/4" speaker adapters and the Focal product line is one of my most commonly-requested variations (after the Polk dB series).

 

Here is a link to past examples- many of them for the Focal Polyglass and Axess lines (a few were for the K2 Power, but I could not tell you which ones if I tried):

 

http://www.subaruaudio.net/subaru-speaker-spacers/#ga

 

 

Additionally, if you would be willing to loan me any of your install pictures (particularly those related to the doors) for my how-to website, I would be very appreciative. The site is here:

 

http://www.subaruaudio.net/

 

Under "Installations" I do not have anything for the 2010+ Legacy, so any content that you could provide would be appreciated.

 

Very cool, man, thanks for replying here. Looks like a good deal at $60 shipped for all four. I might take you up on that later.

 

The 5th Legacies have a lot of room in the doors, unlike 4th gen and WRX, so I might not have a problem. But if I want to add some of those foam baffles, I might need the spacers for clearance from the window. The plus side is that your adapters are not that swelling MDF stuff and do the hole conversion, eliminating the need to make new holes in my door.

 

Question: I've noticed in your images that they're not drilled for everything except the top two speaker mount holes. Is this to promote a stronger grip for self-tapping screws? Is that PVC soft enough for that?

[cipher_nemo]

Here's are some minor updates over the weekend.

 

Place for grounding to the body. I drilled holes, scrapped, sanded, and then scoured the are where a grounding bus bar will be placed...

http://modarmor.com/images/car_audio/caraudio_amp_install_1_thumb.jpg

 

 

Shot of the grounding bus bar from the trunk...

http://modarmor.com/images/car_audio/caraudio_amp_install_2_thumb.jpg

 

 

Sub mono amp installed, along with 200 amp circuit breaker and power & ground distribution blocks...

http://modarmor.com/images/car_audio/caraudio_amp_install_3_thumb.jpg

 

I'll mount a 1 to 2 farad capacitor on the edge of the other board in the future, but for now this phase is just the sub, its amp, the head unit, the EQ, and the SSD.

[phenryiv1]

Very cool, man, thanks for replying here. Looks like a good deal at $60 shipped for all four. I might take you up on that later.

 

The 5th Legacies have a lot of room in the doors, unlike 4th gen and WRX, so I might not have a problem. But if I want to add some of those foam baffles, I might need the spacers for clearance from the window. The plus side is that your adapters are not that swelling MDF stuff and do the hole conversion, eliminating the need to make new holes in my door.

 

Question: I've noticed in your images that they're not drilled for everything except the top two speaker mount holes. Is this to promote a stronger grip for self-tapping screws? Is that PVC soft enough for that?

 

Sorry, I was not on here for a couple days while I made some changes to the shop. Regarding depth in the cavity, the Legacy does have fairly good space bbehind the door panel but the distance to the window is still relatively shaoolw so you still need some sort of spacer (as you are also removing the oem spacer that is integrated into the oem speaker) plus you need an adapter for the mounting pattern of the oem location. I don't know if that helped or not, but I was not quite sure what you were asking.

 

I don't quite understand your question about the mount holes. The adapters are drilled for multiple Subaru vehicles- foresters, imprezas, legacys, etc. I don't drill for the screws to attach the speaker to the adapter, but I drill to attach the adapter to the door and I drill the main cutout for the speaker basket.

[cipher_nemo]

I don't quite understand your question about the mount holes. The adapters are drilled for multiple Subaru vehicles- foresters, imprezas, legacys, etc. I don't drill for the screws to attach the speaker to the adapter, but I drill to attach the adapter to the door and I drill the main cutout for the speaker basket.

 

In your photos I've seen the holes drilled to mount the space to the door as they should be. However, I've sometimes seen two of the lower holes drilled to mount the speaker to the spacer, so I assume that's done by your customers?

 

Any ways, I think I'm going to use a very high-density foam as spacers to mount my speakers. That will help deaden unwanted vibrations from the component's housing. Of course I'll be adding sound-dampening (eg: dynamat) inside the doors as well. So I'll keep your spacers in mind if I change my mind on that. Thanks again.

[phenryiv1]

In your photos I've seen the holes drilled to mount the space to the door. I've always seen two of the lower holes drilled to mount the speaker to the spacer. Is this done by you or your customers? And if it's done by you, why only two at the bottom and none at the top? I assume you don't drill them since each speaker is different based on its size.

 

I see the confusion. As mentioned, I drill for the mounting holes for multiple Subaru vehicles, some of which have different bolt patterns than others. The holes that you see unused in pictures are there to mount the adapters in other vehicles. They are not there to attach speakers to the adapters.

[cipher_nemo]

As for my previous post, I'm looking at making them out of high-density foam rubber like garage or gym mats...

 

http://www.exercisematshop.co.uk/img/interlocking-gym-garage-anti-fatigue-flooring-play-mats-384sqft-d_2402_500.jpg

[phenryiv1]

Having worked out on thos mats for about 2 decades, I can say that they will never hold a screw, so you will need to drill through the mat and into the inner door skin to secure the speaker.

[cipher_nemo]

Having worked out on thos mats for about 2 decades, I can say that they will never hold a screw, so you will need to drill through the mat and into the inner door skin to secure the speaker.

 

Thanks for the advice. I'll play around with it to find out. If that's the case, can you sell those cut-outs with a lower profile so I could wrap them in a thin foam?