Home improvement photos

[BarManBean]

I don't think old knob-and-tube is considered to be very safe anymore. not sure tho.

[GTEASER]

Knob and tube is dangerous and seriously outdated. It scares me just to look at that stuff. If you're doing a remodel and have walls open, might as well spend a few extra bucks and update, even if it means hiring an electrician to add a circuit or two and safely remove portions of the knob and tube (if possible). He can always stub the new circuit(s) for you and you can do the individual runs to receptacle and switch boxes to save some money.

[baconbits]

It's fine as long as you don't touch it... the jacket on it crumbles after a while.

[BarManBean]

Looking at the wiring, I would also guess that your electrical box might be a bit of a mess unless it has been recently updated.

[thefultonhow]

That's not knob and tube. That's the 1950s version of Romex. Knob and tube predates that. My parents have the cloth-covered "Romex" in their built-in-1956 house too, except where new circuits have been added.

 

My guess is that the cloth-covered "Romex" never had a ground wire, as it wasn't required by code back in the 1950s and 1960s. So all that janky ground wire is due to the need to add grounding, coupled with the desire to not have to do drywall as part of the process.

 

If I were you, I'd redo it all, since the wall is open anyway.

 

EDIT: This is knob and tube:

 

http://www.dynamic-electrical-solutions.com/knob_and_tube.jpg

 

Yes, those are bare hot wires.

[baconbits]

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=212907&d=1437188781

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=212908&d=1437188781

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=212919&d=1437189444

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=212920&d=1437189444

 

Before and after with KnT for me.

 

One of the white wires on the left is a phone line, the other is a 10ga ground running to a copper pipe in the basement (illegal now.) Second pic is all of the KnT grounded to the copper.

 

Last 2 pics are what I did to remove it and where I terminated it all, in accessible boxes. One is terminated in the ceiling, the other is in a capped outlet box on the wall conveniently hidden by a picture now.

[thefultonhow]

If it were me, I wouldn't feel safe with any knob and tube in my house. I'd bite the bullet and rewire. Same as if I had primarily aluminum wire. Luckily, my house was all properly grounded copper Romex.

[GTEASER]

When was your house built Mack?

[Rhitter]

Looking at the wiring, I would also guess that your electrical box might be a bit of a mess unless it has been recently updated.

 

My electrical box is clean . It was replaced a few years ago.

 

That's not knob and tube. That's the 1950s version of Romex. Knob and tube predates that. My parents have the cloth-covered "Romex" in their built-in-1956 house too, except where new circuits have been added.

 

My guess is that the cloth-covered "Romex" never had a ground wire, as it wasn't required by code back in the 1950s and 1960s. So all that janky ground wire is due to the need to add grounding, coupled with the desire to not have to do drywall as part of the process.

 

If I were you, I'd redo it all, since the wall is open anyway.

 

 

Yep, looking at the pictures, this is not KnT, it's the 1950's version of Romex. There are no knobs anywhere. White and black wires are in the cloth/paper covering.

 

A ground was added by tying into the water pipes. This ground is shared by two circuits (the oven and the kitchen sockets) I say tying, but it's just a bare copper wire going into the crawl space and wrapped around the pipes.

 

The right way - is end the circuit (would still leave two plugs on the old one), create another one at the box and run the romex in the crawl space and up to these outlets?

 

When was your house built Mack?

 

1955, you called it exactly.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Rhitter

[GTEASER]

Looks exactly like,the wiring in my old 1954 home. That cloth romex with the paper insulator is scary too. When I had walls open I would always strip it out and replace it as far back as possible around corners etc even if I had to put a temporary junction box in with a blank faceplate. That way I knew the old was gone.

[thefultonhow]

The right way - is end the circuit (would still leave two plugs on the old one), create another one at the box and run the romex in the crawl space and up ti these outlets?

 

I mean, if you have physical access to all parts of the circuit, either in the wall or the crawlspace, the right way is to rerun Romex from the panel to the first outlet in the circuit, and then daisy-chain Romex from there to each additional outlet.

[thefultonhow]

That cloth romex with the paper insulator is scary too.

 

Keep in mind that vinyl Romex has paper insulator inside too. So the only real difference is vinyl sheathing versus cloth sheathing, and I've seen instances where vinyl disintegrates too. The real concern should be, is the sheathing in good condition, and does the grounding meet code? If the answer to both those questions is "yes," then the cloth stuff is fine.

[baconbits]

That's not knob and tube. That's the 1950s version of Romex. Knob and tube predates that. My parents have the cloth-covered "Romex" in their built-in-1956 house too, except where new circuits have been added.

 

My guess is that the cloth-covered "Romex" never had a ground wire, as it wasn't required by code back in the 1950s and 1960s. So all that janky ground wire is due to the need to add grounding, coupled with the desire to not have to do drywall as part of the process.

 

If I were you, I'd redo it all, since the wall is open anyway.

 

EDIT: This is knob and tube:

 

http://www.dynamic-electrical-solutions.com/knob_and_tube.jpg

 

Yes, those are bare hot wires.

 

Those aren't bare. Look at the knob-and-tube wires in my first pic. There are black jackets on them where they bend, usually before a box. You can see where the jackets end, there are white and black (depending on neutral or hot) jackets on the actual conductors.

[Rhitter]

I mean, if you have physical access to all parts of the circuit, either in the wall or the crawlspace, the right way is to rerun Romex from the panel to the first outlet in the circuit, and then daisy-chain Romex from there to each additional outlet.

 

Unfortunately, I don't. I can't get to two outlets that start the circuit. This is mostly in the wall.

 

A new circuit was added for the dishwasher. Romex to a junction box in the crawl space ,BX back through the crawl space to the panel. I could do something similar and add a dedicated circuit for the vent hood in the same manner.

 

 

hmm, scope creep.

[nemo]

http://i.imgur.com/NKzSfL5.jpg

 

Ouch. That's not safe at all. That ground wire has no path to ground. You need to re-do it all.

 

edit: looking at it some more, i see what looks like some burning on part of that white romex. take a look.

Edited February 19, 2016 by nemo

[thefultonhow]

Ouch. That's not safe at all. That ground wire has no path to ground. You need to re-do it all.

 

I think it goes through the bottom plate to a pipe in the crawlspace, according to earlier conversation.

[Rhitter]

Ouch. That's not safe at all. That ground wire has no path to ground. You need to re-do it all.

 

edit: looking at it some more, i see what looks like some burning on part of that white romex. take a look.

 

The path to ground is the copper wire 8awg, that goes into the crawl space and to the copper water pipes. It's at the very bottom of the picture where it disappears into the sole plate.

 

I was very concerned with the brown / burning at first, but it turns out it's just discoloration from the black cloth covering.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Rhitter

[ehsnils]

I think it goes through the bottom plate to a pipe in the crawlspace, according to earlier conversation.

 

Maybe it's according to code. But I doubt it's current code.

[thefultonhow]

Maybe it's according to code. But I doubt it's current code.

 

We were talking about safety, not code. Things can be safe (relatively speaking) but not to code.

[ehsnils]

We were talking about safety, not code. Things can be safe (relatively speaking) but not to code.

 

To me that don't look safe either. It mostly looks scary, something you see in education material for electricians of how things shouldn't be done.

[Rhitter]

To me that don't look safe either. It mostly looks scary, something you see in education material for electricians of how things shouldn't be done.

 

Honestly though, what's scary about it? What could happen? Generally curious.

 

Looks like this was code (not this random mess of connections), but grounding to water pipes prior to NEC2002. The kitchen was redone in the 90's. So, some level of it was code when it was built.

 

I think the "code" was adding grounding for the 220v line and then the socket circuit was just hodge podged onto the ground. Which is completely against code. Also a little confused as to why they didn't just wire this back to the panel, like they did for the other circuit added for the dishwasher. Has to be a cost thing.

 

Looks like to clean it up I would need to add a GFCI outlet to the start of the circuit and remove the ground. Wire the 220v ground back to the panel. That would make it code per NEC2002 (which is outdated, but what I found easily). But, would it actually make it any safer?

Edited February 19, 2016 by Rhitter

[ehsnils]

The grounding wire looks messy and not really tightly tied in all places, which worries me a bit. Grounding to a water pipe is also something that should be avoided because today water pipes may not be metal all the way but plastic.

 

At least here it's common that incoming water from the well is in a plastic pipe and not metal. So if the incoming water pipe is plastic but the pipes indoors are metal and you ground in the water pipe you can get quite a dangerous situation where every faucet is carrying electricity if something goes wrong.

[thefultonhow]

Looks like to clean it up I would need to add a GFCI outlet to the start of the circuit and remove the ground. Wire the 220v ground back to the panel. That would make it code per NEC2002 (which is outdated, but what I found easily). But, would it actually make it any safer?

 

I don't think that would be code. You need the ground either way. The question is more, is it inside the Romex or outside?

[rmoore5]

What I see in the picture is the questionable quality of the connections to the ground wire ( the #8 going through the plate). This a common way of connecting grounds, but I would use a pressure connector, wire nut , or solder. The copper water pipe must be bonded to the ground bar at the service panel. Refering to the NEC (and this will be TLDR) :

 

from http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/grounding-and-bonding-part-1-3

 

Bonding conductors and jumpers

 

The 2011 revision helps distinguish between the rules for bonding jumpers upstream from an overcurrent device versus bonding jumpers downstream from an overcurrent device.

 

The NEC now clarifies that bonding jumpers on the load side of an overcurrent device must comply with all of Sec. 250.122, not just Table 250.122. It also:

 

Clarifies the rules for bonding jumpers installed in a raceway versus those installed outside a raceway.

Adds provisions for protecting aluminum bonding jumpers against corrosion.

Addresses physical protection for all bonding jumpers.

Equipment bonding jumpers must:

 

Be copper.

Terminate by listed pressure connectors, terminal bars, exothermic welding, or other listed means [250.8(A)].

Edited February 19, 2016 by rmoore5

[Rhitter]

I don't think that would be code. You need the ground either way. The question is more, is it inside the Romex or outside?

 

The old romex doesn't have a ground inside it (black cloth) and the 220v doesn't have a ground inside it. The ground is outside it. I thought you were allowed to use GFCI's on ungrounded circuits (instead of two prong outlets)

 

What I see in the picture is the questionable quality of the connections to the ground wire ( the #8 going through the plate). This a common way of connecting grounds, but I would use a pressure connector, wire nut , or solder. The copper water pipe must be bonded to the ground bar at the service panel. Refering to the NEC (and this will be TLDR) :

 

To clean up what they did and I haven't settled on if I'll stop here. I installed a junction box and brought all the copper wires into the junction box and clamped them all together with a split bolt. I extended the 8awg on the left upper to reach the 8awg coming from the sole plate. The mess of what looks like 14awg copper is all one wire that's just looped around itself a bunch is also now clamped into the split bolt. I haven't yet cut any of the connections to length so it's still pretty messy. But, it's better than what it was.

http://i.imgur.com/xr79a58.jpg?1

 

I need to make sure the copper pipe is bonded to the ground bar at the service panel still.

 

Thanks guys for all your help. I know the right answer is get an electrician, but in the mean time I am enjoying learning by talking about this / researching it.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Rhitter