Audio Setup

[BigTDogg MA]

LOL LOL, you LOL a lot

 

Yes, I'm well aware of the MS-8 and what it does, along with the cleansweep. I'm saying, for $300 you can get the JDM HVAC kit (sticky at the top of the forum BTW, who's got a lot to learn?) and then get a new double DIN HU with built in Nav, traffic, HD radio, USB and AUX in for about $700. For $1,000 98% of owners are all set, and have all the control they would ever need with all the inputs they can desire. No Subaru unit can do that.

 

The MS-8 doesn't have traffic, MP3 playing abilities, HD radio etc, but it does have a built in 1/3 octave EQ, surround DSPs and a stereo microphone for autotune. IMHO, it's more suited to someone who can live with the lame-ass OEM HU source selection, wants an OEM look, and wants to compete in audio competitions.

[EazyMoney]

You are right, not real familiar with with the Legacy's. All I know is that some have no dash kit available w/ auto climate controls. However I do know quite a bit about OEM processor upgrades and thought I would put in my 2 cents. You can go on and on about features, but it's all what the consumer wants. So lets revise. What's this guy really want?

[EazyMoney]

I live in a busy city where thieves are EVERYWHERE! Maintaining an OEM 'stock' look is absolutely the way to go around here, especially if I have thsnds stacked up in goodies. And hell I can pull up to just about anyone and blow there front stage away in terms of SQ. Maybe this guy is after "flashy" buttons, and pretty LED's.

[EazyMoney]

So do you want to be able to compete in competitions orr??????????

[Thunder240]

BigTDogg and EazyMoney, thanks to both of you for the input.

 

As with Eazy, I put some value on maintaining a stock look. I live in a city and park my car on the street, so having something flashy is more likely to get my car jacked. I also don't have any need for Nav, and my OEM HU has Aux and BT (BlueConnect) and plays MP3s. I would appreciate USB and HD radio, but those are low priorities for me. My highest priority is SQ. I don't plan to enter any competitions, I just want to be able to listen to my music and enjoy it. To that end, I would like to have the ability to do some EQ. Finally, I use an iPhone4 for most of my music. I've assumed that units that have iPod integration work specifically with iPods and not iPhones, but maybe I'm wrong. (?)

 

I'm trying to keep costs down, which means making incremental improvements as funds become available. In the near term I'm planning to get 2 way component speakers and using the passives that they come with. I'm also gonna get a sub, and frankly I don't know enough about car audio yet to understand how it is that subs get crossed over. (I know a lot about home audio, and generally there a sub has a built in passive crossover which can be disabled if you have a receiver or pre/pro with a bass management system, or if you have a seperate active crossover. So it would be helpful to learn if car or mono amps intended to power subs typically have built in passives, or if they rely on crossover either from the head unit or from a separate processor.) Sub aside, some time down the road I may upgrade to active crossovers, but for the time being its gonna be passive.

 

So my first question is all features aside, do aftermarket headunits with built in processors have inherently better sound than separate processors based on the fact that the aftermarket head unit is processing an unamplified signal while the separate processor is going from high to low, and then getting amplified a second time by the external amp? If yes, would I have to be an orchestral conductor to notice, or is this something that any appreciator of decent sound would discern?

 

My second question is feature-wise, are there any under-$500 aftermarket headunits that have good sound processing as well as AUX, USB, EQ, BT, plays mp3? Do they have a built-in active crossover? (Just curious -- I told you that I plan to go passive for now but would be interested in active in the future.)

 

Similary, @EazyMoney, if I went with a seperate sound processor and kept the OEM HU, I'd want to keep my cost down to under $400. Does this mean that the JL cleansweep is my only option, or are some of the others you mentioned at that price-point. Given that I'm going 2 way and using the passives (at least for now), what would you recommend? And if I were going active how does that change things? Do you happen to know if the ones that do iPod integration work with iPhones too?

 

Thanks again to both of you guys. This is a big help.

[Dbl_D718]

^ you've totally derailed this guy's thread. Did you read anything he posted? You can tell in his first post he's not looking to compete or spend that kind of money. Just wants a decent sounding system without breaking the bank.

 

It's like you're just posting to show off what you "know" and trying to belittle the others. Not saying you don't know anything, but some of your statements are just off. Chill. This guy isn't looking to compete in SQ completions. He's got a very nice set of components now and is interested in advice on finishing the system he described on page one of this thread.

[EazyMoney]

You can pick up an OEM processor upgrade like the MS-8 for a few hundred used....breaking the bank?

 

Just because you have something like the MS-8 does not mean you have to compete in an SQ comp

 

To me, all I care about as far as the head unit/source's capability is "Sound" I dont care for flashing pretty l.e.d.'s or screens, etc. etc.

[EazyMoney]

I am just saying for basically the same pricerange, he could go the MS-8 route, and probally have a lot better sounding system, or atleast the capability to do so if tuned/staged correctly. I also noted that this is great for maintaing an "OEM" look, which is definately good for resale, and is a great option when there are thieves around.

 

Sure, you may loose the options of navi, etc. but to me, all I care about is the "sound" coming out of the source/head unit. That there should be soley its function. Just my 2 cents, wasn't tryin' to show off or anything, sorry guys. It was just an optinon man. If you truly care about the "sound" than take a closer look into going "my way" but if you want those other options are willing to sacrifice than I guess ditch my idea. Just a suggestion.

[BigTDogg MA]

I put some value on maintaining a stock look. I live in a city and park my car on the street, so having something flashy is more likely to get my car jacked.

 

So if you want to maintain the factory HU, then you're going to want some kind of OEM interface. Given your budget, I recommend the AudioControl LCQ-1

 

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_161LCQ1/AudioControl-LCQ-1.html?tp=116

 

It has a built in 6 channel F&R EQ, 5 channel subwoofer EQ, independent level gains, AccuBASS which is their bass restoration DSP. You can get it for under $300 from Crutchfield, which means you may be able to find it cheaper elsewhere as well. And unless things have changed drastically there, AC's stuff is still made in the USA.

 

I use their EQQ in my Z and it's a lovely piece.

 

Most of the time, your amplifiers will have active filters or even crossovers on their input stage. So with the 6 channel output of the LCQ-1, you can filter your front and rear channels for high pass, and allow low pass to the sub. As an example, the OP's amp is shown below:

 

http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/products/2008/500/x500MRPF300-i.jpeg

 

Notice the OFF-HP-LP section, that's your active filter. The crossover frequency can be selected to the right of that. In a system amp, 5 or 6 channel, you'll have inputs specifically for the sub, with the same type of filtering and gain controls, and most likely a subsonic filter setting.

 

If you're happy with your factory HU (thought you were the OP at first, didn't realize you had a 2011) then that's what I would suggest. I also linked to speaker brackets made by a member here. I'd PM/Email him to see if they'll work for a 2011 as well.

[Thunder240]

BigTDogg, thanks a ton for the recco. This is a big help, and I'll investigate further.

 

So, I'm guessing you feel that whatever the inherent limitations of processing a signal from an OEM head unit, they aren't significant.

 

 

So if you want to maintain the factory HU, then you're going to want some kind of OEM interface. Given your budget, I recommend the AudioControl LCQ-1

 

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_161LCQ1/AudioControl-LCQ-1.html?tp=116

 

It has a built in 6 channel F&R EQ, 5 channel subwoofer EQ, independent level gains, AccuBASS which is their bass restoration DSP. You can get it for under $300 from Crutchfield, which means you may be able to find it cheaper elsewhere as well. And unless things have changed drastically there, AC's stuff is still made in the USA.

 

I use their EQQ in my Z and it's a lovely piece.

 

Most of the time, your amplifiers will have active filters or even crossovers on their input stage. So with the 6 channel output of the LCQ-1, you can filter your front and rear channels for high pass, and allow low pass to the sub. As an example, the OP's amp is shown below:

 

http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/products/2008/500/x500MRPF300-i.jpeg

 

Notice the OFF-HP-LP section, that's your active filter. The crossover frequency can be selected to the right of that. In a system amp, 5 or 6 channel, you'll have inputs specifically for the sub, with the same type of filtering and gain controls, and most likely a subsonic filter setting.

 

If you're happy with your factory HU (thought you were the OP at first, didn't realize you had a 2011) then that's what I would suggest. I also linked to speaker brackets made by a member here. I'd PM/Email him to see if they'll work for a 2011 as well.

[BigTDogg MA]

OEM source units can't touch aftermarket units. IME, even the top end optional systems (Mark Levinson, Macntosh, Infinty, Bose) aren't at the THD, S/N and processing levels of mid to high level aftermarket units. If you want to keep the factory look and integration, the AudioControl unit will clean up much of the crappy output from the stock unit, but again, the output can only be as good as the source.

[Dbl_D718]

x2

 

Ultimately the best sound will come from an upgraded head unit. The AudioControl I've heard is nice but I've never used it. I use an Alpine PXE-H660 and have been pretty happy with the results, and the fact that it "auto-tunes" using a microphone makes it easier to set up for most people. It's also comparatively cheap if you can find a used one. Others have had success with the MS-8 and Cleansweap.

 

In the end, read up on all of the processors and learn the differences in features between them. Pick the processor that has the features you want and is best within your budget.

[markc0220k]

I plan on getting polk 6501s components in the front, 650 coaxils in the rear and a Alpine MRP-F300 4 channel amp. I also plan on purchasing some dynamat. How do ya'll think this setup would do?

 

 

yours come with hk sys/amp?

[ar4620]

Nope. I wish. Running a 175w Cadence amp to Alpine Type-X Pro components. Just need to wire the headunit and ground and it will be finished. Dynamat really helped the vibrations though.

[EazyMoney]

I'd Like to put in some more input. I have recently swapped out my MS-8 with a device called a Mini DSP. This little guy is incredable. Here is a thread on my home forum. I'd advise you guys to create an account on diyma.com

 

You can pick up a 2 x 4 board for $99!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/bikinpunks-product-review-forum/80665-minidsp-excellent-alternative.html

[EazyMoney]

x2

 

Ultimately the best sound will come from an upgraded head unit. The AudioControl I've heard is nice but I've never used it. I use an Alpine PXE-H660 and have been pretty happy with the results, and the fact that it "auto-tunes" using a microphone makes it easier to set up for most people. It's also comparatively cheap if you can find a used one. Others have had success with the MS-8 and Cleansweap.

 

In the end, read up on all of the processors and learn the differences in features between them. Pick the processor that has the features you want and is best within your budget.

 

 

Evan though the "Auto Tone" Doesn't exactly work on the H660. I have used both the H650 and H660. there have been many autotunes in the audio industry. Autotune is basically the holy grail of DSP. Problem is, none of them work. Id take DSP over imprint any day. Plus you can't adjust the tone like you can with the MS8. The MS8, unlike the imprint, has an autotune that works.

[EazyMoney]

Nope. I wish. Running a 175w Cadence amp to Alpine Type-X Pro components. Just need to wire the headunit and ground and it will be finished. Dynamat really helped the vibrations though.

 

Dynamat, big spender eh' ha head over to Lowes or Home Depot and pick yourself up a roll of "Peel and Seel"

 

Same material, but you're not paying for any name here. I spent a whopping $17 dollars on a roll, and for that same amount sq ft it would have ran me $75 on "Dynamat" or Hushmat, roadkill, or any other "mainstream" name deadener

 

just a thought

[BigTDogg MA]

FYI, you can hit the M quote button and get all your replies in one post. Makes your e-personality less abrasive that way too We get it, you like DIYMA. It's a great audio forum, yes, but please stop whoring it out. I got my Xtant there, and posted about my audio system build in my Z, and it's fun to read. You're not the first person to recommend it.

 

There are plenty of "autotune" DSPs that will get close to ideal settings.

 

I used a product called R-Blox which ran about $1/ft², and still has the aluminum backing and came with a better roller than the Dynamat ones. So for about $75 I took care of 3 cars. Peel and seal can end up spelling foul, even toxic on hot days, depending on what it's made of. Better to get a purpose-built product, even if it's a generic.

[EazyMoney]

just a suggestion bud. I have had great luck with it, and temps run in Minnesota from -30 to 105 +

[Dbl_D718]

I agree on the sound deadening. The stuff from home improvement stores is meant to sit on top of a surface (roof), not hang on the side of or under something. On hot days, the adhesive is known to fail and the product can fall off of whatever it's hanging on in your car. And usually that stuff is asphalt-based, which isn't nearly as good at deadening as a butyl-based product. I use Second Skin myself, but man prices have gone way up since I used it in my last build three years ago.

[EazyMoney]

My Peel and Seel is NOT asphault based. There was several products from Peel and Seel along with many other types of "Generic" sound deadeners that were. Good point.

 

I have on the insides of my Kicks. It's been in there about a year now, wrapped all the way around, not just on bottom, and I just took out my HDS Woofers to replace them with a set of Dyn's and looks like everything is holding up there great.

 

I did use a heat gun when installing, so that probaly helped.

[EazyMoney]

Another point, on the stuff from "Home Improvement Stores." You said "is mean to sit on top of flat surfaces (flat roofs) etc. I know what you are talking about, I shingle myself. Work for 2 companies and I am very familiar with the materials. I believe you are talking about "Ice and Water." This is a product you lay down when papering a roof. I am not sure about other states, but here in Minnesota you are required to have 2 layers of it around the living space on the house. That has an asphault top and sticky backing. Very similar to sound deadener material but not as thick.

 

 

Nowwwwww the stuff that I use atleast, is not the asphault based material. It is indeed exactly like lets say Dynamat. Black, sticky backing, and the flipside aluminum flashing.

[Boulderguy]

Dude, peel & seal is absolutely asphalt-based. It's a roofing material. And it's not much better than nothing as a sound dampener. Better results can be had with modelling clay.

 

Yes, there are plenty of "audio-holics" here, as you call them.

 

Back to the OP - please don't mess with mini-DSP or an MS-8 at this point, it's way beyond what you're looking for. Kinda like recommending coilovers to someone looking for tires.

 

The single biggest tip I can give you with the type-X pros is to return them for coaxially mounted tweeters - if you mount component tweeters in the stock locations as separates the sound quality will be poor due to time-alignment issues. Those challenges can be overcome but it takes more equipment & expertise.

[EazyMoney]

Oh sh*t, sorry. The product I was used was not "Peel And Seal." It was certainly a product like it. I will have to double check to see what it is. You are right "Boulderguy" it is asphault based, I thought it was butyl rubber. Anyways, when I walked into Home Depot, I did ask for Butyl Rubber. I used that on my doors. However, I did use "Peel and Seal" in my Kicks as they are sealed up all the way around. Only problem with the "Peel and Seal" is yes it can get nasty and smell at certain temps, but the material was going to be housed in a sealed enclosure, and I would never smell anything from there.

 

So, if you are sound deadening any metal surfaces on your vehicle, roof, floor, especially vertical door panels, you 'can' go with "car audio brand" sound deadener OR you can save a few $$ and go with an alternative but make sure its BUTYL RUBBER based, no Asphault based.

 

Now, to evan save more $$$, you CAN use Asphault based material like "Peel and Seal" In SEALED ENCLOSURES like kick panels. Mine has been holding up great, and you won't be 'smelling' anything cuz ofcourse, the enclosure is sealed.

 

Hope that clears some things up, sorry my bad!

 

Oh and my suggestion on the Mini DSP or MS-8, are not that expensive. I know you can pick up a "used" MS-8 for a few hundred or less which will run you the same amount of money for a dash kit/aftermarket HU. And the benefit of going "OEM Processor Upgrade" well will give you a kick asss processor in which MOST head units today aren't equipped with (well excluding McIntosh, Denon, etc.) The OP also stated that he would like to keep the OEM look, so another reason I posted going "OEM Processor UPgrade" route. He said something about living near a park, and his car is always parked on the street. Scroll up if you don't believe me.

 

Oh also, the Mini DSP is only $99 ha, c'mon!

[BigTDogg MA]

The single biggest tip I can give you with the type-X pros is to return them for coaxially mounted tweeters - if you mount component tweeters in the stock locations as separates the sound quality will be poor due to time-alignment issues. Those challenges can be overcome but it takes more equipment & expertise.

 

FWIW, my Alpine CDA-9831 in my Z has time alignment adjustment, and that HU is going on 8 years old now. Downside is it's not adjustable based on frequency, which is how I'd like to adjust it. Newer units may have frequency dependent adjustment, but I haven't checked.